No player compared to another player is an apples to apples comparison.

Also, does someone like Tuffy Rhodes or Alex Cabrera get credit for winning J-League MVP awards on their hall of fame case after washing out of american baseball?

I don't. I think the first ballot should be protected for the true greats of the game. It should be used to separate guys like Griffey Jr and Paul Molitor. I guess some could argue the percentages do that in a way...

And while metrics/stats show Biggio/Jeter to be similar, you can't ignore NY vs HOU, you can't ignore the rings, you can't ignore the ass Jeter has pulled over his career.

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And having said that, I looked it up.

Baseball Reference has Robin Yount as most similar to Biggio.

And one Derek Jeter as second most similar.

Jeter has superior averages and hit total. And thus I suppose those who argue Biggio should have been in on the first ballot (or second ballot) can't argue much about Jeter getting in on his 1st or 2nd try.

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Who is arguing against Jeter being in the HOF? You're are either good enough or you are not. Being first ballot or 5th ballot is meaningless.

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I don't. I think the first ballot should be protected for the true greats of the game. It should be used to separate guys like Griffey Jr and Paul Molitor. I guess some could argue the percentages do that in a way...

And while metrics/stats show Biggio/Jeter to be similar, you can't ignore NY vs HOU, you can't ignore the rings, you can't ignore the ass Jeter has pulled over his career.

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You do realize that Paul Molitor was a 1st ballot hall of famer right? He's part of the reason I think that the writers screwed Biggio by auto 1st balloting many other 3000 hit guys, but finding some reason not to vote for Biggio.

We were talking about Ichiro, thats why I asked about Biggio. Since you mentioned a decade. Here are Ichiro's and Biggio's comparison in their best 10 year period.

WAR-
Biggio: 53.1
Ichiro: 54.6

Stolen Bases since you mentioned speed. I guess Biggio wasn't the "premier base stealer" but he was no slouch. 291 is probably pretty near the top for that 10 year period in the NL though. Both led the league in steals exactly once.
Biggio: 291
Ichiro: 383

Both were the premier leadoff hitter in their prime in their league.

Both were the premier player in their league at their position.

Biggio was by good ways the better power hitter and slugging percentage player in his prime decade. Biggio also lost about 70 games off his numeric stats because of strike seasons and starting out as a catcher. Besides that both players were consistent every day players.

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And having said that, I looked it up.

Baseball Reference has Robin Yount as most similar to Biggio.

And one Derek Jeter as second most similar.

Jeter has superior averages and hit total. And thus I suppose those who argue Biggio should have been in on the first ballot (or second ballot) can't argue much about Jeter getting in on his 1st or 2nd try.

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Who is arguing against Jeter being in the HOF? You're are either good enough or you are not. Being first ballot or 5th ballot is meaningless.

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No one that I can think of, but I didn't claim anyone thought Jeter shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.

Yes I realize Molitor was a first ballot, which is why I said "should". It's my opinion, but I like for guys that were very very good, but maybe not an all-time great to wait...again, just my opinion.

Again, this is all perception. Biggio's career average of .281 didn't do him any favors, and playing in Houston certainly didn't help. Biggio had one of the best 5 year runs in baseball, but was essentially compiling after 2000.

Again, perception. Lots of voters still like certain metrics, like hitting .300. Biggio did that only 4 times, while Jeter did it 3x that of Biggio, while also batting 40 points higher for his career.

Thoughts on Adrian Beltre?

Beltre is a very solid defender and a good hitter. He will hit some milestones that will get him there, but not sure he would be first ballot. That said, I didn't look to see how long it took other third basemen with similar stats to get in.

Um, the reason I asked you about Biggio is because you said this...

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I started a thread a few years back about Ichiro being a first ballot guy. He was the premier right fielder, lead-off man, contact hitter and base stealer for a decade. He didn't start playing MLB until 27...

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Im not talking about Jeter. I asked you about Biggio because the superlatives and timeframe you listed for Ichiro are pretty much exactly what Biggio's hall of fame case is with a few differences.

Adrian Beltre should be a hall of famer. He likely will not get nearly votes Chipper Jones will despite being arguably a superior player. His upside down career path will not help him.

Chipper Jones is another player who is basically Jeff Bagwell (Like Frank Thomas) but will get in on the first ballot.

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Chipper Jones is another player who is basically Jeff Bagwell but will get in on the first ballot.

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I don't think Chipper gets in on the first vote. Didn't make it to 3000 hits, no GG's. 1 World series title and 1 MVP and career .303 average along with 468 HR's will get him in, but it will take a few votes for that to happen IMO.

Beltre has a very suspicious career arc.

19-24: Looked like an avg young player. Only one year (@21) was his OPS over 800. His power numbers grew as one would expect a developing player and male to be.
25: OMG he's a baseball. 48 bombs, 200 hits, OPS over 1000.
26-30: Back to the same player as before. One year out of 5 with an OPS over 800.
31-37: He's a near perennial all star. Power goes from 20s to 30s in HRs. OPS is damn near 900 yearly. Comes back down to earth at 36, but still better than he was in his 20s.

If we ignore anything potentially fishy, then he is very close. I would probably say on the outside at first blush, but I would have to do a little more research.

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Chipper Jones is another player who is basically Jeff Bagwell (Like Frank Thomas) but will get in on the first ballot.

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Chipper is a lock for the hall. He never had a bad year. Not one. Even as an old man he'd find ways to get one base and find gaps when his power was diminished.

Chipper's offensive career was superior to the one Beltre has had, and its not all that close.

Beltre of course has had the superior defensive career.


We'll just see how the voters value that. Typically, they look to offense first.

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Chipper Jones is another player who is basically Jeff Bagwell (Like Frank Thomas) but will get in on the first ballot.

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Chipper is a lock for the hall. He never had a bad year. Not one. Even as an old man he'd find ways to get one base and find gaps when his power was diminished.

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Jeff Bagwell never had a bad year, unless you count his final year he only started like 20 times because he was hurt. He got on base more often even that year than Chipper did in his two worst years, although a 100 PA sample is pretty meaningless. Of course I think Bagwell is a lock HoFer too, based on vote totals. I think Chipper will get in on the first ballot, no flimsy random argument such as those typically used against Bagwell's HoF case will be brought up.

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Um, the reason I asked you about Biggio is because you said this...

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I started a thread a few years back about Ichiro being a first ballot guy. He was the premier right fielder, lead-off man, contact hitter and base stealer for a decade. He didn't start playing MLB until 27...

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Im not talking about Jeter. I asked you about Biggio because the superlatives and timeframe you listed for Ichiro are pretty much exactly what Biggio's hall of fame case is with a few differences.

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I guess I needed to be more specific with the superlatives, as I didn't know the great and might Biggio would be compared to Ichiro.

Ichiro with 10 GG in right field. Biggio with 4 GG at 2nd base.
Ichiro had 200+ hits in ten straight years. Biggio had one
Ichiro is hitting .314 for a career including 6 years over .320. Biggio hit .281 with one season of .325
Ichiro has 507 stolen bases. Biggio with 414

(Ichiro has played in 400 less games)

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Chipper Jones is another player who is basically Jeff Bagwell (Like Frank Thomas) but will get in on the first ballot.

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Chipper is a lock for the hall. He never had a bad year. Not one. Even as an old man he'd find ways to get one base and find gaps when his power was diminished.

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Jeff Bagwell never had a bad year, unless you count his final year he only started like 20 times because he was hurt. He got on base more often even that year than Chipper did in his two worst years, although a 100 PA sample is pretty meaningless. Of course I think Bagwell is a lock HoFer too, based on vote totals. I think Chipper will get in on the first ballot, no argument currently used against Bagwell will be brought up.

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I am with you. B**** is a lock too.

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Um, the reason I asked you about Biggio is because you said this...

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I started a thread a few years back about Ichiro being a first ballot guy. He was the premier right fielder, lead-off man, contact hitter and base stealer for a decade. He didn't start playing MLB until 27...

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Im not talking about Jeter. I asked you about Biggio because the superlatives and timeframe you listed for Ichiro are pretty much exactly what Biggio's hall of fame case is with a few differences.

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I guess I needed to be more specific with the superlatives, as I didn't know the great and might Biggio would be compared to Ichiro.

Ichiro with 10 GG in right field. Biggio with 4 GG at 2nd base.
Ichiro had 200+ hits in ten straight years. Biggio had one
Ichiro is hitting .314 for a career including 6 years over .320. Biggio hit .281 with one season of .325
Ichiro has 507 stolen bases. Biggio with 414

(Ichiro has played in 400 less games)

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My favorite player of all time is Biggio and it isn't close. Ichiro > Bidge.

Then again you don't often compare OF to 2Bs.

Ichiro is roughly average for the typical Hall of Fame right fielder. Likewise Biggio compared to second basemen. Ichiro is a very famous player, who excelled in the right fan friendly stats, and as a bonus can get credit for the amazing things he would have done in years he did not play in MLB. Ichiro will be a first ballot guy, all 3000 hit players in the last 40 years or whatever are, except the proven drug cheats, the banned players...and Biggio.

Ichiro is one of those players that played in the wrong decade. His singles and stolen base game would have played much better in the 70's and 80's as opposed to the 'roid fueled 00's.

one small nit on Ichiro's career resume...his career on-base % is only 43 points higher than his career BA. Did not would not take walks

and as I've posted before...I would still take the 1995-1999 Craig Biggio in the leadoff spot over any other post WWII leadoff hitter including Ichiro and Rickey Henderson. That 5-year stretch was phenomenal

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and as I've posted before...I would still take the 1995-1999 Craig Biggio in the leadoff spot over any other post WWII leadoff hitter including Ichiro and Rickey Henderson. That 5-year stretch was phenomenal

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Throw in 94 as well and here are his 162 game averages.

.306
.401
.473
.874
129 Runs
193 Hits
44 Doubles
4 Triples
19 Home Runs
82 RBIs
40 SB

Pretty damn salty. Jeter probably has a 5 year run similar if you look somewhere between 1999 & 2006.

Rickey Henderson from 1985 to 1990 was better, and those weren't his 100 SB seasons.

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Pretty damn salty. Jeter probably has a 5 year run similar if you look somewhere between 1999 & 2006.

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Bolded is better than Biggio in that '94 span above.

1998 to 2001, Jeter went:

.331
.404
.499
.903
132 runs
219 hits
35 doubles
7 triples
22 homeruns
90 RBI
27 SB


For a larger sampling, 1998 to 2003 he went:

.324
.397
.478
.875
129 runs
214 hits
33 doubles
5 triples
20 home runs
85 RBI
26 SB

I don't know why I took the time to do this, but here are the stats for the 4 players mentioned above

It is crazy how similar Biggio and Jeter's numbers are in their prime.

Hmm.... How about this. Only 2.75 years, but on pace for something special.

162 Game Avg
97 Runs
223 Hits
45 Doubles
4 Triples
16 Home Runs
74 Runs Batted In
46 Stolen Bases
.334 AVG
.380 OBP
.484 SLUG
.864 OPS

I'll let yall figure out who.

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Hmm.... How about this. Only 2.75 years, but on pace for something special.

162 Game Avg
97 Runs
223 Hits
45 Doubles
4 Triples
16 Home Runs
74 Runs Batted In
46 Stolen Bases
.334 AVG
.380 OBP
.484 SLUG
.864 OPS

I'll let yall figure out who.

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Hmm...

Roughed Odor?!?!

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Hmm.... How about this. Only 2.75 years, but on pace for something special.

162 Game Avg
97 Runs
223 Hits
45 Doubles
4 Triples
16 Home Runs
74 Runs Batted In
46 Stolen Bases
.334 AVG
.380 OBP
.484 SLUG
.864 OPS

I'll let yall figure out who.

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Hmm...

Roughed Odor?!?!

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Does he even have 223 career hits?

Beltre is a no-doubt hall of famer after the last few years. Not a first ballot guy, but he's in.

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Beltre is a no-doubt hall of famer after the last few years. Not a first ballot guy, but he's in.

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Why? What #s say no doubt?

Here are some other opinions on the subject of Beltre and the HOF:

Here's why Adrian Beltre will be an easy Baseball Hall of Fame selection

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He'll get his 3,000th hit sometime in the next year or two barring injury. By the end of his career, Beltre should top 90 Wins Above Replacement, more than any third baseman except Mike Schmidt, Eddie Mathews or Wade Boggs. Beltre might even reach 500 home runs, though that's more of a stretch.

Beltre probably won't end his career as the greatest third baseman ever, but he'll be somewhere in the discussion. Jay Jaffe of Sports Illustrated has Beltre as the fifth-best third baseman all-time for his stat JAWS. Adam Darowski rates him as sixth-best and says he's already Hall-worthy.

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Beltre crafting rock-solid Hall resume
(written last season)

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Beltre's career Wins Above Replacement, according to BaseballReference.com, is 36th all time at 80.7 (Currently at 87.3). That places him fifth among all third basemen. Only Hall of Famers are ahead of Beltre: Mike Schmidt (106.5), Eddie Mathews (96.4), Wade Boggs (91) and Brooks Robinson (88.4).

Counting the players who spent most of their time at third base, Beltre is fifth all-time in hits, home runs and RBIs.

Defense? Those metrics are sometimes trickier, but Beltre's defensive WAR is second all-time among third basemen, trailing only Robinson.

At 36, Beltre is 303 hits away from becoming just the ninth member of baseball's 400-home run, 3,000-hit club. Every single member of that little club -- Stan Musial, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, etc. -- is in the Hall except for Rafael Palmeiro.

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Beltre was essentially "Hall of Very Good" when Texas signed him.

He's going to end up Top 30 in career WAR... He's a no-doubter.