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3rd best catcher. Maybe.

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Bench, Berra and Pudge. No shame in being behind Bench and Berra. 3rd best catcher of all time should be a first ballot election.

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So should one of the greatest pitchers and hitters (Clemens & Bonds), but we all know why they didn't.

I'm not sure anyone is arguing Pudge shouldn't be in. The argument is if he will get in right away. Based on how the voters have treated suspected steroid users it is not crazy to think they will make him wait. Piazza was hands down the best hitter catcher ever and he waited.

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Piazza was also a below average catcher. Pudge is probably the best defensive catcher of all time.

If Pudge had the steroid talk surrounding him like Clemens I would agree with you. Statistically I think Clemens is one of the Top 3 of all time.

But the talk around Pudge isn't anywhere near that. Very few people associate Pudge with steroids, simply because he wasn't a guy that had mega homerun totals.

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I'll amend my thought to fourth. Add Carter in before Pudge.

He won't be a first ballot hall of famer. I'll say 2nd or 3rd ballot. Should he be? Maybe. I think the PED stigma will affect his chances more than you think.

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Gary Carter a better catcher than Pudge?

Bwahhahaa.. Were you one of the voters that didn't vote for Griffey?

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Pudge Rodriguez is arguably the greatest catcher of all time.

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This is the key phrase. If someone disagrees, don't take it personally. Just move along

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The point is Pudge Rodriguez is arguably the greatest catcher of all time.

In no conversation is Bagwell the greatest 1st baseman of all time. He wasn't even the greatest first baseman of the last two decades.

Talking about 4 different eras in baseball. Not an easy way to decide who is the greatest of all time. I shared my opinion.

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The point is Pudge Rodriguez is arguably the greatest catcher of all time.

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You keep saying that. Feel free to argue it. By what measure? What metric or combination of metrics? Seriously. Catchers have two jobs. Be a defensive catcher and be a hitter. I've argued that he is the best defensive catcher but from an offensive standpoint he's not even top 5. If you have some measure to show something different trot it out and we can all happily discuss it. Otherwise stop trolling.

Is Pudge one of the greatest catchers ever? Yes. Where he ranks will depend on who is ranking and what criteria they use. But he's, at worst, top 5. I'd say top 3, but everyone brings their own biases or perspectives which will affect their personal rankings. It's not the end of the world if there is disagreement.

Comparing a 1B and a C is completely pointless. Saying Bagwell was better than Pudge, or Pudge was better than Bagwell, really just doesn't make sense. There's just no way to compare the two. I know it's really just a Astros vs Rangers battle that is using Bagwell and Pudge as pawns, but it's a pointless exercise, IMO.

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Is Pudge one of the greatest catchers ever? Yes. Where he ranks will depend on who is ranking and what criteria they use. But he's, at worst, top 5. I'd say top 3, but everyone brings their own biases or perspectives which will affect their personal rankings. It's not the end of the world if there is disagreement.

Comparing a 1B and a C is completely pointless. Saying Bagwell was better than Pudge, or Pudge was better than Bagwell, really just doesn't make sense. There's just no way to compare the two. I know it's really just a Astros vs Rangers battle that is using Bagwell and Pudge as pawns, but it's a pointless exercise, IMO.

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Of course there is a way to compare them. Bagwell was clearly the better hitter and it wasn't close. Now catcher's are held to a much different standard and remembered in history very differently because of the stresses they have defensively.

If we are arguing Pudge vs other catchers and Bagwell vs other 1Bs then I(most) would say Pudge ranks higher at his position.

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Of course there is a way to compare them. Bagwell was clearly the better hitter and it wasn't close. Now catcher's are held to a much different standard and remembered in history very differently because of the stresses they have defensively.

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Except it's not a valid comparison because of the very reason you mentioned. The physical stresses of the position are obviously going to have an adverse impact on hitting. These are stresses Bagwell did not have to deal with. Sure you can compare them, but that doesn't make it a valid comparison. Their circumstances were completely different. Trying to compare a catcher's hitting statistics to a non-catcher is just pointless, IMO.

Well if they are on the same level, and they both had significant steroid talk amongst them, then I guess it's probably going to take 6+ years for Pudge to get inducted to the Hall?

I mean, that should be an easy way to tell who is talking from their bias and who isn't -- by what a team-neutral group of HOF voters believes... So we should expect Pudge to hover around the 50% mark for 5 years then in around 2022 he'll finally break in.... Right? Right?

Of course not, because Bagwell isn't considered on Pudge's level by anyone that isn't an Astros fan. Sorry that I hit a nerve with that comment.

Last try to educate the masses. If you want to see some data on player worth comparing just 1B or just C (or any other position specific metric set) go take at look at the JAWS data. It places Pudge 3rd historically in catchers, about where most of us have said. For the non-believers, Bagwell is 6th in all 1B. That's pretty rarified air. He should have been an easy 1st ballot inductee. Right or wrong he got lumped into the steroid story and clearly had it held against him. Look no farther than the big jump in his voting % once the voter purge happens this year. Same for Piazza.

Take an honest look at the JAWS data and if you still think he wasn't the best 1B when he was playing in the meat of his career (he and Pujols have some overlap), well I guess we know who the blind homer is.

Ivan was a known juicer by guys that played with him. He will always get a free pass cause he never was caught.

He won't get a free pass. He will get in, but not on first ballot like he should

Well first lets ignore that JAWS throws out defense and is only ranking based on offensive #'s... For a position like 1st base -- which is considered to be one of the least significant on the field defensively -- that's not really a big deal.... So you've basically got a ranking of who were the best hitting first baseman.

One thing I notice about this list is that it sure has a lot of players that played from 1995+ in there... Pujols, Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome, Palmeiro, Cabrera... All rank in the Top 12 All Time... Half of the Top 12 first basemen of all time played from 1995 on?

It's almost like something was rampant in the mid-90's that allowed hitter's numbers to skyrocket... especially helpful to those who aren't very high up on the defensive side of things.

That's why there is the discrepency in Bagwell's HOF voting -- power hitting first baseman during that era were a dime a dozen.

That's not to say Bagwell wasn't great, but the HOF voting alone shows that most don't consider him one of the best all-time.

Bagwell also played in the Dome

I estimate that cost him 300-400 HRs over his career

So from what I've read..

Pudge played better D then Bagwell & Bagwell hit better than Pudge?

No no no. You haven't been paying attention. Bagwell was the games biggest doper because he played 1B and hit the ball. Pudge was the bastion of virtue who played C. He was the voice of reason and biggest anti doper in a clubhouse of antidoping angels.

I guess I'm having a hard time trying to figure this one out.

In your unbiased opinion some of you guys say they are two players that are/were on the same level.

In your unbiased opinion some of you guys say they both have similar levels of steroid talk surrounding them.


So if that's the case, then I assume you guys think it's going to take 6+ years for Pudge to get in the Hall, averaging around 55% of the vote his first 5 years on the ballot... right, right?


Yeah, sounds pretty stupid doesn't it?

No one outside of Houston views Jeff Bagwell as on the same level player historically as Pudge Rodriguez, and the HOF voting the next few years will make that quite clear.

Pudge hit .296 in over 10,200+ PA
Bagwell hit .297 in over 9,400+ PA

Pudge will go in in the first ballot. No question. Top 3 at his position all time even if you took away half his HR's.

Should Pudge be a first ballot HoFer? Based solely upon his on field performance, of course. He certainly was a joy to watch. However, whether it is fair or not he has come under PED suspicion and he will lose votes. If he makes it in on the first ballot, it will be a close vote rather than a slam dunk.

Lol no it won't. Pudge is a shoe in first ballot HOfer. This thread is the classic case of Houston ***** envy over all things Dallas.

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Lol no it won't. Pudge is a shoe in first ballot HOfer.

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I will be please if he is, still believe his % of the vote will be closer to 75% than 90+. Either way I'm sure Pudge will be fine with it.

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Lol no it won't. Pudge is a shoe in first ballot HOfer. This thread is the classic case of Houston ***** envy over all things Dallas.

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You do realize that Pudge has more damning PED suspension than Bagwell did, right? Even more than Piazza too. Pudge is the only one of the three to have been mentioned by Canseco as a roider. Neither Bagwell or Piazza have been mentioned by anyone in the game as a roider, or show up in any reports.

No one is arguing that Pudge is not a hall of famer, the only thing we're arguing is that he won't go in on the first ballot. This thread is the classic case of Ranger fans over valuing their product.

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Lol no it won't. Pudge is a shoe in first ballot HOfer. This thread is the classic case of Houston ***** envy over all things Dallas.

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You do realize that Pudge has more damning PED suspension than Bagwell did, right? Even more than Piazza too. Pudge is the only one of the three to have been mentioned by Canseco as a roider. Neither Bagwell or Piazza have been mentioned by anyone in the game as a roider, or show up in any reports.

No one is arguing that Pudge is not a hall of famer, the only thing we're arguing is that he won't go in on the first ballot. This thread is the classic case of Ranger fans over valuing their product.

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How do you over-value someone who is considered a consensus Top 3 catcher of all time?

The only "over-valuing" going on in this thread are those that are trying to say Bagwell is considered on the same level (or even a higher level) than Pudge. That should be a future litmus test on whether or not you are capable of having unbiased discussions, because saying they are considered on the same level is painfully ignorant.

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Lol no it won't. Pudge is a shoe in first ballot HOfer. This thread is the classic case of Houston ***** envy over all things Dallas.

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You do realize that Pudge has more damning PED suspension than Bagwell did, right? Even more than Piazza too. Pudge is the only one of the three to have been mentioned by Canseco as a roider. Neither Bagwell or Piazza have been mentioned by anyone in the game as a roider, or show up in any reports.

No one is arguing that Pudge is not a hall of famer, the only thing we're arguing is that he won't go in on the first ballot. This thread is the classic case of Ranger fans over valuing their product.

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How do you over-value someone who is considered a consensus Top 3 catcher of all time?

The only "over-valuing" going on in this thread are those that are trying to say Bagwell is considered on the same level (or even a higher level) than Pudge. That should be a future litmus test on whether or not you are capable of having unbiased discussions, because saying they are considered on the same level is painfully ignorant.

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The over-valuing is thinking that Pudge will overcome his PED speculation because of his greatness when nobody else could.

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Bench, Berra and Pudge.

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3 different eras. Pick one - no wrong answer.

To me, it's funny how great Jim Sundberg was, but people don't seem to put him in the same category with Carter or Boone.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sundbji01.shtml

No one seems to be debating that he's not Top 3 all-time. So if he isn't, then how is he over-valued?

My case is simple - anyone top 3 at their position all time and not caught or admit to using PED's is going to be put in on the first ballot. That goes for Pudge or anyone else in the league, regardless of position or team. There is PED suspicion about almost everyone in this era, but those with an overwhelming HOF case on-the-field and a lack of getting caught off (see Griffey Jr) will still go first ballot.

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No one seems to be debating that he's not Top 3 all-time. So if he isn't, then how is he over-valued?

My case is simple - anyone top 3 at their position all time and not caught or admit to using PED's is going to be put in on the first ballot. That goes for Pudge or anyone else in the league, regardless of position or team. There is PED suspicion about almost everyone in this era, but those with an overwhelming HOF case on-the-field and a lack of getting caught off (see Griffey Jr) will still go first ballot.

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In the last 6 years, these are the players to make it in on their first ballot:

Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
Frank Thomas
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Ken Griffey Jr.

If you were to google their name + steroids, the top articles are all on how they were clean, advocated against steroids, etc. The only one that has some speculation per a google search of "name" + steroids is Randy Johnson.

Try googling Ivan Rodriguez + steroids. These are the top 4 article names in my search:

1) Ivan Rodriguez Essentially Admits Steroid Use
2) Ivan Rodriguez - The 25 Best Alleged (and Confirmed) Steroid Users in Baseball History
3) Ivan 'Pudge' Rodriguez Retires: PED Rumors Shouldn't Affect HOF Status
4) The Official All-Time PED All-Star Team - Baseball Hot Corner

The fifth link is to his wiki page which contains:

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Prior to the 2005 season, Jose Canseco, in his controversial book Juiced, claimed to have personally injected Rodrguez with anabolic steroids during their time as teammates on the Texas Rangers. Rodrguez denied the allegations and said he was "in shock" over Canseco claims. Asked by a reporter four years later whether his name is on the list of 104 players who tested positive for steroids during baseball's 2003 survey testing, Rodrguez responded, "Only God knows."

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He is going to lose votes during his first year because of this. Get your heads out of the sand and quit blaming our view as *enis envy over Dallas.

There has been plenty of suspicion about Griffey because his career meets the profile - power blew up and then injuries did too.

Only issue Grif had was when he overdosed on nerve tonic.

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There has been plenty of suspicion about Griffey because his career meets the profile - power blew up and then injuries did too.

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Except a google search returns:

1) Did Ken Griffey, Jr. Take Steroids? | Bleacher Report
2) Why Do We Always Assume Ken Griffey Jr. Didn't Use Steroids
3) On the day Ken Griffey Jr. and Mike Piazza make the Hall of Fame the steroid issue remains
4) In 'Steroid Era,' Ken Griffey Jr. was the exception

Pudge's articles while still speculative carry a different tone than these articles.

The time-tested "google search results" research.

Ackar:

In the last 6 years of your HOF voting research, how many of those players were considered one of the greatest all time at their position?

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Ackar:

In the last 6 years of your HOF voting research, how many of those players were considered one of the greatest all time at their position?

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I don't know? Bonds? Clemens?

It's funny how your support is always



Yep, LOL at someone's post sure discredits anything they have to say.

So you believe Bonds and Clemens are viewed on in the same steroid-light as Pudge?