You're going to take our best pitcher the 2nd half of the season and our 2nd best pitcher the entire season and put them in Round Rock?

Ummmmm, no.

Holland and Ogando in Round Rock?

Wow. Mind Blown.

Its worth entertaining....

You basically have 6 SP spots - 5+Long Reliever.

You have 7 SPs.

At least 1 won't be on the Big Team, after ST.

Feldman seems to be the Long Reliever.

If CLew starts on the DL, all is good. Other than that, you have an extra SP. Moving to the BP makes less sense for any of them. If you have an Option available, move one to RR to start, if you can't move one before then.

I'm not talking about keeping them there the entire season.

we used up an awful lot of luck last year on the health of our rotation. I have a feeling we're gonna need all the help we can get this year.

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I don't believe you'll find any post with me being that high on the guy - only those saying he deserved the ball every 5th day last year and that his contract was great... Two things I don't think many could argue (though I'm sure you'll try).

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Maybe, all I remember is your offering a bet to anyone who would accept that his ERA would finish the year below 4.00

To which apparently nobody, including yourself, accepted?

I'm a poor, and you bailed out the last time I accepted a bet from you.

Regardless, did Colby pitch better, like, or worse than a mediocre #3 pitcher as far as the better pitching staffs look?

DallasAg, I'm assuming Ogando would go to the bullpen before he went to Round Rock. The chances of Holland not making the rotation are pretty much zero. Even if his performance were to stink, Washington's gut would tell him to keep him in Arlington.

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Regardless, did Colby pitch better, like, or worse than a mediocre #3 pitcher as far as the better pitching staffs look?

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Last year? Certainly worse.

But again, I still think there's something to be said for having a "veteran" around what is going to be a rotation full of guys without a ton of major league starter experience.

And even ignoring that it doesn't matter... In 7 of his 8 playoff starts Colby Lewis has given up 2 runs or less. Much like his 2010 playoff performance last year bought him tons of leeway during Regular Season 2011, his playoff performance this year all but guarantees him a starting role in Regular Season 2012 barring injury.

I'd probably actually say Darvish and Colby are the only two locks for the rotation at this point.

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Last year? Certainly worse

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Thanks, you blew your fun sized head last year when I, and others, said he'd pitch no better than a mediocre #3.

I didn't read the rest of your post.

And, yet again, neither you or anyone else were willing to take that wager.

Coming back to talk about something you weren't bold enough to back up rings just as foolish as the "Yu Darvis to the Blue Jays" thread you started and then attempted to backtrack and say it was "just to bait people".

I'm not always right (Harrison at this point being probably one of my key misses, though I'm still not that high on him), but I'll put my Rangers prediction track record up against just about anybody's.

There was clearly a second post, somewhere by the wooden fence on the grassy knoll, that was winking.


I'd say its equally as foolish to claim no one can argue with your evaluation, and then backtrack, when your evaluation was entirely wrong, because a college kid didn't take a bet.

I'd happily put my track record up against yours in anything we've disagreed on. Where should we start? CJ and the Angels? Colby? Our catchers? Julio Borbon?

Let's get back on track...

Much discussion on how things pan out.

My expectation is we won't know anything until they come to an agreement with Darvish... and that is either they sign him, or they don't.

I don't think we'll hear anything else.

With that... I see Oswalt is willing to take a 1 yr deal. It'd be nice to add that veteran to the lineup for 1 yr. I expect him to end up in a place like SD where he can be assured a great ERA with little pressure/dependence.

Once Darvish signs... we'll get floaters on some of our guys. They won't do anything to jeopardize the expression that Darvish will be an add-on, as opposed to a need.

Hopefully Garza and Gio don't go anywhere until after Darvish's fate is known. For what SD got for Latos... I'd like some of that.

Toronto, NYY... Let's talk...

I know you'd be happy to - I think over the last 2 years every single post I've made you've made some attempt to disagree with. It's kind of your shtick -- that's why I started posted "I think TxAggie2011 is one smart dude" because odds were you were going to try and disagree.

Feliz has all the potential in the world but he will get absolutely shelled this year as a starter. Too many walks. Only one consistent pitch. How can we justify putting Ogando or Harrison in the pen, substantially reducing their workload after their very promising seasons in 2011

I would love Oswalt as the veteran presence, but I really see no way that Colby is the odd-man out. He's done too much for this team for me to picture Washington/Daniels/Ryan trading him.

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Feliz has all the potential in the world but he will get absolutely shelled this year as a starter. Too many walks. Only one consistent pitch.

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Define "shelled?!"

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I know you'd be happy to - I think over the last 2 years every single post I've made you've made some attempt to disagree with. It's kind of your shtick -- that's why I started posted "I think TxAggie2011 is one smart dude" because odds were you were going to try and disagree.

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Prior to a few days ago, when was the last time I had posted over here? June?

But nah, when I'm here, I don't discriminate. Ask DallasAg, he knows.

Maybe I do disagree with you more than I do others, but rest assured that would be because I disagree with your view more than others. Don't pump yourself up too much if you can help it, its never been personal on this side. But, personal or not, if I'm right, I'm right.

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Define "shelled?!"

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Theoretically, even if he's rolling out a 3.25 and a 1.10, if its 6th best on the staff and notably worse than impending FA Colby Lewis, should he not be placed back in the bullpen?

Feliz has the same problem that hurt(s) CJ - walks. Putting unearned runners on base on a regular basis WILL come back to bite you.

Feliz' Walks were up this year, because he has been trying to work on 2ndary pitches, in anticipation of moving the the rotation.

With that... I'd take a Walk over a Hit every time. If you are 3-1... or 3-0... I'd just assume walk the guy, than groove a HR. Walks only hurt you, if the other team can ultimately hit you.

I'll take outs over walks and hits.

His walks were also up there because his FB command was suspect, to say the least,

I still think it's a bad idea to move him to the rotation, but they're dead set on it, and i've read more than one Rangers media source hypothesize it's not just about upside; it's about make-up, as well.

its also about one of, if not THE best pitching coach in all of baseball thinking that he's got ace potential if they can work through a few things.

If Maddux believes in him, then so do I. But I agree, I've hated the idea of this move for a while.

if he cant get it done under Maddux, Nolan, and Maddux, then he cant get it done anywhere.

I sometimes wonder what baseball book some of you guys subscribe to.

Feliz has a chance to be a TOTR guy. If there is a 50/50 chance that he could develop into a TOTR, how could you posiibly risk letting him fail to reach his potential by pigeon holing him in the bullpen.

Good Starters >>>>>>>>>>> Great Bullpen

If he waits much longer to move to the rotation, it will be too late. I think they are at the now or never time and I think that the R's brass know that, hence, the reason they are dead set on moving him.

Dream about the potential for a minute.....

Yu - Potential top 5 pitcher
Feliz - Potential #1 guy
Holand - Potential High #2 guy
Ogando - Potential Solid #2 guy
Lewis - Solid #3 regular season pitcher
Harrison - Solid #3 starter

I think Holland has better than high #2 stuff. He's a potential ace if he screws his head on straight. We saw some signs last year.

someone with the Red Sox said Holland had Cy Young stuff last year.

Sky is the limit with that kid. He just needs to keep developing. If he takes a step backwards this year, then we need to change our tune on him.

I think he steps forward in a big way.

My comments:

Yu (25) - Potential top 5 pitcher <-- Until I see him, I'll wait, but there is a lot of buzz
Feliz (23) - Potential #1 guy <-- I agree
Holand (25) - Potential High #2 guy <-- I think higher upside. Potential #1
Ogando (28) - Potential Solid #2 guy <-- I'd be happy
Lewis - Solid #3 regular season pitcher<-- Last year in Rangers rotation
Harrison (26) - Solid #3 starter<-- I keep reminding people. CJ equated his FB to David Price
Martin Perez (20) <-- He wants to say hello in 2013.

Holland and Ogando have performed well in post season.
Harrison has experience and hopefully improves this post season.

Ogando is in like his 4 career season as a pitcher.

Our rotation is locked through 2014 with HUGE upside in talent.
Add:
Nolan Ryan- Best former pitcher to own a team
Mike Maddux- Best pitching coach
Greg Maddux- Whatever he will be doing...

I grew up in the '70s and was a Dodger fan. I LOVE pitching!

[This message has been edited by DallasAg 94 (edited 12/21/2011 10:51a).]

If Holland could put together a season consisting of more of his good starts then his bad ones, then I agree 100%. His issue right now is consistancy. We have all seen that Cy Young stuff on a number of outings, especially in the WS last year. He did take a step forward in the second half last year where he put together a number of good starts in a row which is very promising to me.

The way I see this season breaking down is it all comes down to guys falling more on the side of what they CAN be vs what they HAD been. If Holland or Feliz develop as they can and if Yu is even two thrids of what the R's are expecting, I think the Rangers have every bit a chance as LAA to win the West. If Yu dissapoints and neither Holland or Feliz show at least #2 stuff consistantly, I think this will be a tough year keeping up with the retooled LAA.

Personally, I think this is going to be a very interesting race to the end and 2012 can not get here fast enough for me!

I think expecting anything more than 150IP and a sub 4.0 ERA (say a 3.95) would be setting unrealistic expectations for Feliz.

He will need to prove to himself (and hitters):
That he can get his 2ndary pitches consistently over the plate.
That he can pitch a 2nd and 3rd time through a rotation. He will actually need to pitch and not just throw.
That he can fight through the wall he'll hit at 120-130 IP.

His fastball will likely lose movement in June/July and hitters will be sitting on the FB, and likely banging it around.

People need some realistic expectations for 2012. Moving him to the rotation is NOT about 2012!

Also - Harrison had the 15th ERA in the AL for 2011.

Don't lose sight of the fact the Rangers will likely get off to a slow start. That is the result 2 consecutive post-season appearances.

Harrison (3.39) can better CJ's numbers (2.94).
Ogando needs to repeat (3.51)
Holland (3.95) needs to match Ogando (3.51)
CLew was 4.40 in 2011. He needs to be like Hollandv2011 (sub-4.0).
Yu and Feliz need to be sub-4.0, as well.

Sub-4.00 got you 24th in the AL.

Rangers SP were 3rd and had a 3.65 ERA.
LAAAAAA SP were 2nd and had a 3.59 ERA.

All we need to do is elevate a bit in SP, to compensate for the loss of CJ and addition to LAAA.

Some people hyping up feliz on talent is justified, but i think he is going to have a learning curve, maybe a couple of years. The reason is work ethic. Evan grant mentioned it was an organizational concern. Also his head. Getting rattled the way he did in the Rangers clinching game is concerning. If he is able to become a dominating starter, it may take some time because you don't flip a switch and get a great work ethic and your head screwed on straight in an offseason.

I think moving to the rotation will help that work ethic.

RPs generally have a reputation of being cut-ups... sloths.

Holland said being sent down in 2010, things just "kinda clicked." Last off-season (between 2010-2011 season) Harrison took up reading "The Mental ABCs of pitching." He engaged Holland with it. It is the book Roy Halladay credited with having a significant impact on his development (as mentioned in this article.

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Why have you likely never heard much, if anything, about a man who has helped players like Greg Maddux and Alex Rodriguez?

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Hmmm... didn't Texas just hire Greg?!

It is why I think Holland and Harrison have so much upside. Not just the physical ability... but their desire to be the best they can.

If they are focused to continue to improve physically and mentally... Feliz moving from surrounded by RPs to SPs might influence his work ethic and mentality.

Add Ogando, whom I just see as nails. The guy seems unshakeable. He truly has a closer mentality.

Word is Yu is equally dedicated.

Ok... I need to quit... I'm slobbering on the keyboard.