***********2023-2024 San Antonio Spurs Thread********************

267,542 Views | 4288 Replies | Last: 4 mo ago by Guitarsoup
TheNotoriousP.I.P.
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If you are holding the FO to the "taking the best player in the draft" mindset, then there are zero FOs that hold up to that standard. OKC seems like a gold standard but they whiff all the time. They've hit the past 3 drafts, but in 2021 they took Tre Mann at 18. Before that they had Poku in 2020 (they traded Immanuel Quickley for him), Darius Bazley in 2019 (moving Brandon Clarke for him), Terrance Ferguson in 2017, Cam Payne in 2015, and Mitch McGary and Josh Huestis in 2014. Their past 3 drafts have been great, but let's not act like Presti doesn't have a bunch of misses too. Even within the past few drafts they traded Alperen Sengun on draft night in 2021, and swapped Dereck Lively for Cason Wallace in 2023 (too early to tell on that one but Lively seems like the better pick).

The draft is in part a crapshoot, you never know how these guys are going to develop. A more realistic view is: how do these guys hold up compared to where they were drafted? Wemby holds up as a #1 pick. Sochan is top 7 in points, rebounds, and assists in his draft class while also taking on the role of primary defender. Not bad for a #9 pick. Branham and Wesley have performed about average in comparison to their draft spots, with Branham being a top 10 scorer in the class but with empty numbers, and Wesley being one of the best playmakers in the class so far. 2021 was a complete flop with Primo and Wieskamp. In 2020 we got Vassell and Tre Jones. Vassell at 11 has easily been one of the top 10 players of the class, so good value there. Tre Jones was a second rounder who has turned out to be a starting level PG, which is phenomenal value. Those are all the drafts with Brian Wright as GM so far. Sochan and Vassell were good picks. Wemby and Tre Jones were great picks. Primo was a bad pick. Branham and Wesley have been about average. Who knows on Sidy and Castle at this point. Overall we have been solid in the draft under Wright.

Combine that with how much value we've gotten out of the trades we've made (DJ, Poeltl, Derozan, Thad, generating 2nds from cast-offs like Hernangomez and Forbes) and the lack of bad contracts handed out (aside from Zach Collins), I'd say Brian Wright has earned a little more grace than you're giving him. Especially since RC and Pop are both still in the building and part of the decision-making process.
superunknown
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M.C. Swag said:

I actually like what the Spurs did. They can focus exclusively on developing Castle and maintain enough future assets to continue to build around Wemby as needed. There wasn't an obvious good pick at 8 and I think the spurs are smart to avoid the 'youth' trap that a team like the Rockets are about to be in. The Rockets have 7 lottery picks on rookie deals and it's gonna be tough knowing which players to prioritize.


I think it's clear that PATFO are concentrating on finding the top 8 dudes for the first few Wemby years and carefully avoiding this exact scenario.

Dudes like Branham and Wesley are going to wash out as the Spurs figure out which young guys are the core. Champagnie and Mamu and Bassey (isn't he still injured) are absolutely not on the team in 2 years or more. I love what KJ and Sochan bring to the team but I am not convinced they'll be here in a couple of years. Sochan will need to be at least a credible scoring threat (even a Bowen type scoring threat where he's deadly from a certain spot) to stick around. If young ones don't develop they're not going to be here long term. Once we shipped out DeMar and went into full tank mode it was all about acquiring as much young talent as possible and seeing who progressed enough to stick. We're still in that mode, even though we've got an all-world talent to build around. Stockpiling draft picks and jumping on an imploding team's top guy using those picks is the way of the league now....the CBA is going to punish teams who max out 3 guys just to keep them so taking advantage of other bad decisions made is how you can improve your team in a hurry.

I think the path for 2024-2025 still has a veteran FA (such as SloMo) coming to the Spurs, but for all we know, another team is gonna blow theirs up. Maybe even before the season starts. We've got a dozen unscratched lottery tickets ready to go over the next few years. As soon as a desired project like Salaun was picked...our #8 was scratched off too and became not as valuable to the Spurs. I'm glad someone wanted that #8 more than we did. I'll take Minnesota's unscratched ticket (plus a swap) in 6 years for something I know I don't want today.
Enzo The Baker
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Zach Lowe just said 4 and 8 for 1 was never in play and there were no conversations with Atlanta regarding a Murray or Young trade.
FTAG 2000
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Guitarsoup said:

FTAG 2000 said:

I don't really think Wright knows what he's doing. He's got job security though as long as he continues to wine it up with Pop and keep them out of financial purgatory.

Asset accumulation is fine in some context, but we have a transcendent player on our roster right now, with poor shooting around him, a bunch of G-League level guys supporting him, and we're trading for picks six years from now?

This front office continues its hubris based on getting Tim, TP, and Ginobili back in the day, while several other organizations in the league have caught up or surpassed it.

It's disgusting and if they don't do something soon besides accumulate future picks, Wemby's camp gonna be bouncing as soon as he can.

It does seem they are putting all their eggs in the 2025 draft basket, but I also have little faith they will pick worth a damn.


So you think Brian made this decision in a vacuum and did not consult the coach and president of the team that is Hall of Fame coach Greg popovich or the CEO of the team RC Buford?

How many guys under 23 do you think the Spurs can effectively develop at one time?

The Spurs need a lot of players right now and if there was no one at value for their building plans at 8 getting more assets they can trade is the better option. Especially when those assets come from a historical dumpster fire team.

Even if they use the pic, there's not a path for the Spurs to be contenders this year

No, I don't think Wright did it in a vacuum.

I think the game has passed Pop as a coach and team president. Not really sure what RC is up to (other than the widely reported trips to France to watch Salaun). Wright's a clown who keeps trading for future assets without cashing any in, and we now know looked the other way on Primo when his sexual deviance issues were provided to the team pre-draft.

Wright has sucked in his front office role everywhere he's been, but it's not hard to see how Pop and he have formed a tight relationship, unfortunately.

I don't think the Spurs can develop anyone under 23, sadly. They keep doing dumb **** like throwing Sochan at point hoping he can turn into Boris 2.0, or thinking the dime a dozen wings like Champaigne, Osman, and Wesley are going to somehow turn into contender level players.

As I said, this front office has no direction. They have an old geezer who is still living in the 2010s running the show and dictating how that organization is run. Their arrogance around their picks and G-League dumpster diving continue to plague them in the raw talent department. They have his yes man in Wright to make sure all the financial and contractual i's are dotted and t's are crossed, and that's about it.

Outside of:

Castle
Wemby
Keldon
Sochan
Vassell

and TBD on:
Cissoko
Bassey
Tre

Every roster position is upgradable, and I'd argue that there were multiple players they could have taken at 8 last night that would have been an upgrade over anyone outside of our top five guys, or at least had the potential to be.

Now I guess they could surprise us in free agency, but I doubt it.

All you need to know about the Pop-led culture these days is every assistant worth a damn has been hired away, our best talent developers like Chip left, and we're trying to collect assets in the middle of Wemby's second contract.

Wemby deserves more.
Enzo The Baker
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'You'll have to rip this 3 spot away from me' - Champagnie probably
DTP02
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I loved the Castle pick, even though it was kind of a no-brainer. He's going to be an important piece on a future contender. I do expect him to turn into a solid shooter.

I'm meh on the trade although I get the logic. Probably a good value in return, but I would have liked to see Carter there and kick one of the other young perimeter player placeholders to the curb. And, frankly, playing Castle and Carter probably helps with continuing to tank for another year.

The saving grace for PATFO is that you can build multiple different versions of a contender around Wemby because of his versatility, so you don't have to have a particular vet pickup in mind to add next offseason.
Enzo The Baker
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You could make the argument that all the assistants are hired away because it's a proven system and culture that franchises want to emulate. Even 10 years after our last title run. That speaks volumes IMO.

What do you mean Wemby deserves more? In what regard? What could the Spurs be doing to give Wemby what he deserves as a 20 year old?
TheNotoriousP.I.P.
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FTAG 2000 said:



No, I don't think Wright did it in a vacuum.

I think the game has passed Pop as a coach and team president. Not really sure what RC is up to (other than the widely reported trips to France to watch Salaun). Wright's a clown who keeps trading for future assets without cashing any in, and we now know looked the other way on Primo when his sexual deviance issues were provided to the team pre-draft.
Can you provide any evidence on this? I have never once seen that this was something that popped up pre-draft.

Quote:

Wright has sucked in his front office role everywhere he's been, but it's not hard to see how Pop and he have formed a tight relationship, unfortunately.
This is his first GM job, so it's kind of stupid to hold decisions that were made at other stops against him since he was not the one making those decisions.

Quote:

I don't think the Spurs can develop anyone under 23, sadly. They keep doing dumb **** like throwing Sochan at point hoping he can turn into Boris 2.0, or thinking the dime a dozen wings like Champaigne, Osman, and Wesley are going to somehow turn into contender level players.
That Devin Vassell guy sure hasn't shown any growth.

Quote:

As I said, this front office has no direction. They have an old geezer who is still living in the 2010s running the show and dictating how that organization is run. Their arrogance around their picks and G-League dumpster diving continue to plague them in the raw talent department. They have his yes man in Wright to make sure all the financial and contractual i's are dotted and t's are crossed, and that's about it.

If you don't see the direction of this franchise then it is because you have buried your head in the sand. All arrows have been pointing towards a ramp up next off-season. Contract expirations, pick accumulation, salary cap jump, everything points to us looking at next year being the one where we get more aggressive.

Quote:

Outside of:

Castle
Wemby
Keldon
Sochan
Vassell

and TBD on:
Cissoko
Bassey
Tre

Every roster position is upgradable, and I'd argue that there were multiple players they could have taken at 8 last night that would have been an upgrade over anyone outside of our top five guys, or at least had the potential to be.
We only started rebuilding after 2021 and tore it down to the screws after 2022 by shooting off DJ, White, and Poeltl. 2022 was only 2 seasons ago, and you have rightly pointed out that we already have 5 promising players on our roster and 3 more with some potential, though I'd argue that Tre belongs in that first group. I am not sure where exactly you thought this team should be so quickly into the rebuild process.

Quote:

Now I guess they could surprise us in free agency, but I doubt it.

All you need to know about the Pop-led culture these days is every assistant worth a damn has been hired away, our best talent developers like Chip left, and we're trying to collect assets in the middle of Wemby's second contract.
Isn't it a sign of healthy, functioning coaching development if assistants are being hired into promotions in other places? The only lateral move I can remember is Chip Engelland, everyone else left for a bigger role. I am not sure why you are spinning that as a negative thing, it's like saying that Nick Saban lost control of the wheel because his coordinators kept getting head coaching gigs elsewhere.

Quote:

Wemby deserves more.

You have to keep in mind that this rebuild has been in motion since before Wemby arrived. I understand there is more pressure to improve since we now have our centerpiece, but young teams that have traded away all valuable vets don't just magically become contenders in 1-2 years.
Ag Natural
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You don't have a freaking clue. The template is pretty well known.

Trade your vets, tank for a couple of years and rack up picks. Use those picks to build a squad from the ground up and develop like hell. The evidence is there that Vassell, Sochan, Wemby, and Jones improved leaps and bounds since they got here. The infrastructure and process for player development in San Antonio is still intact.

There aren't many GMs you can point to who have done a better job orchestrating a relatively quick pivot like this. If they end up winning a bunch of games this season then you'd have to admit they are actually ahead of schedule.

Because of Wemby they have a chance to improve faster than usual. History shows young team don't win. But Wemby could defy history. Saying he deserves more is silly though. He was great last year for a rookie but he was wildly inconsistent as you'd expect. He is growing and improving just like the rest of the team.
Enzo The Baker
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Also, it's important to remember that this is the first draft since having Wemby. Castle in the first player drafted tailored for Wemby's team. There might be some stuff in the pre-Wemby rebuild that won't fit. This is all going to take time and even making one hasty decision now can have adverse impact on the Wemby rebuild going forward.
Earth Rider
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With Tre Jones and Branham I don't want to see the Spurs draft another point guard. I'd like to see how Branham develops. If Castle turns into a star, a good veteran PG behind him would be great.

Shooters need to be the priority in the second round. 3 and D would be nice, but mostly shooter is what is needed. Just not a point. Wemby is the only player to average plus 20 points last year.

FTAG 2000
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Earth Rider said:

With Tre Jones and Branham I don't want to see the Spurs draft another point guard. I'd like to see how Branham develops. If Castle turns into a star, a good veteran PG behind him would be great.

Shooters need to be the priority in the second round. 3 and D would be nice, but mostly shooter is what is needed. Just not a point. Wemby is the only player to average plus 20 points last year.



Agreed. We've burned enough draft cap on point guard at this point.

We need scorers surrounding Wemby (and yeah, some D too).

Obi Wan Ginobili
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Not that anyone gives a ****, but I'll chime in.

Watching the draft (boring as ****, BTW), I was really frustrated with them trading the 8th pick. Yes, it's a weak draft, but this team sucks so bad I just want to see if any young guys have skills that can be useful to winning. After sleeping on it, I guess it just doesn't really matter either way right now.

I think the logic with all the draft picks really boils down to sitting on them and watching the draft, if you have your eyes on guys coming into the league, pick them. If not, package some picks and "overpay" for a good player from a team that needs to get out of a bad situation. Is it really overpaying to give up 5 draft picks when, realistically, you were never going to make all those picks, keep them on the team, and develop all of them. That's just not how the league works.

Look at the contenders who are barreling towards having too high of a payroll. Those teams typically have traded their picks already for contributors. That's who you target. Maybe the Lakers lose LeBron to his first season ending injury, AD is always hurt, and the rebuild starts early? Maybe I'm an idiot, but giving up 4 late first round picks from other teams for 2-3 years of an Austin Reaves type isn't the worst option to have in your pocket.


Personally, I think the entire league is undergoing a paradigm shift in regards to the draft. Players have basically proven that contracts don't mean much anymore. Team building is about having options and jumping when other teams fall. Very few legit teams are being built through the draft.
Ag Natural
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Obi Wan Ginobili said:

Not that anyone gives a ****, but I'll chime in.

Watching the draft (boring as ****, BTW), I was really frustrated with them trading the 8th pick. Yes, it's a weak draft, but this team sucks so bad I just want to see if any young guys have skills that can be useful to winning. After sleeping on it, I guess it just doesn't really matter either way right now.

I think the logic with all the draft picks really boils down to sitting on them and watching the draft, if you have your eyes on guys coming into the league, pick them. If not, package some picks and "overpay" for a good player from a team that needs to get out of a bad situation. Is it really overpaying to give up 5 draft picks when, realistically, you were never going to make all those picks, keep them on the team, and develop all of them. That's just not how the league works.

Look at the contenders who are barreling towards having too high of a payroll. Those teams typically have traded their picks already for contributors. That's who you target. Maybe the Lakers lose LeBron to his first season ending injury, AD is always hurt, and the rebuild starts early? Maybe I'm an idiot, but giving up 4 late first round picks from other teams for 2-3 years of an Austin Reaves type isn't the worst option to have in your pocket.


Personally, I think the entire league is undergoing a paradigm shift in regards to the draft. Players have basically proven that contracts don't mean much anymore. Team building is about having options and jumping when other teams fall. Very few legit teams are being built through the draft.
I was initially frustrated too but the reality is another rookie isn't going to move the needle this year and it's taking on one more development project. I'm warming to the idea of focusing on key players to grow and leave the draft capital in play to have supreme flexibility and options when the opportunity arises later. I've never liked the idea of drafting a million guys with no place to put them.
CC09LawAg
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The funny part in all of this is that I don't think people would be as upset if the draft picks we got were within the next 2 to 3 years - but those would actually be less likely to be good picks.

I think as fans you just want action and immediate results and seeing picks that far out is just not an easy sell.

I didn't like the trade at first but I'm coming around on it - I still think I would've preferred Carter but there is value in the asset building approach too.
Obi Wan Ginobili
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I don't either, but we have plenty of room to put some rookies. Again, this team sucks. It's OK, you're supposed to suck in a rebuild, but there's plenty of playing time on a team that goes 29-53.
Enzo The Baker
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Yea. I still like Carter a lot for the defensive spark plug off the bench. But maybe 8 is too high for that, particularly when it nets you two (basically) unprotected picks.
Earth Rider
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I guess so. Looking at it, I wish we would have taken Cody Williams or Buzelis at 8. I don't think its a big deal though, its a gamble trading that pick for a pick or two in 7 years. A gamble I wouldn't have taken.

This draft may come back to haunt the Spurs, if one of those guys turns into an All-Star. The Spurs probably could have traded with Detroit, picked Salaun, and Detroit would still get Holland at 8. Charlotte taking Salaun was a weird pick also. maybe surprised the Spurs.

Charlotte picked the best player available. They have Brandon Miller and Miles Bridges. Charlotte screwed us, and it sounds like the Spurs just hit the eject button.
flashplayer
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How anyone could watch tape on Salaun and think he is even somewhat likely to be a great player is beyond me. Not saying it won't happen, but it's not obvious at this point.

And Charlotte, of all teams, has a great track record of making terrible picks.
superunknown
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Earth Rider said:

I guess so. Looking at it, I wish we would have taken Cody Williams or Buzelis at 8. I don't think its a big deal though, its a gamble trading that pick for a pick or two in 7 years. A gamble I wouldn't have taken.

This draft may come back to haunt the Spurs, if one of those guys turns into an All-Star. The Spurs probably could have traded with Detroit, picked Salaun, and Detroit would still get Holland at 8. Charlotte taking Salaun was a weird pick also. maybe surprised the Spurs.

Charlotte picked the best player available. They have Brandon Miller and Miles Bridges. Charlotte screwed us, and it sounds like the Spurs just hit the eject button.


I think the math for PATFO was....do we want to spend $6.3m per for a couple of years on a #8 project? If that was their thought process, I'm smashing that eject button like I'm F5ing on the baseball forum for the last few days.
Enzo The Baker
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Chicago officially going full rebuild unfortunately. Will be interesting if they can actually move LaVine and Vuc.
Ag Natural
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CC09LawAg said:

The funny part in all of this is that I don't think people would be as upset if the draft picks we got were within the next 2 to 3 years - but those would actually be less likely to be good picks.

I think as fans you just want action and immediate results and seeing picks that far out is just not an easy sell.

I didn't like the trade at first but I'm coming around on it - I still think I would've preferred Carter but there is value in the asset building approach too.
Future unprotected picks are assets. It doesn't mean you need to wait until 2031 to make the picks. They can be traded anytime. To me this move was just a punt saying we don't believe in the guys available and we'd prefer to kick the can and look for opportunities later. Later can mean this year's trade deadline, next years draft or some other future date.

It should also be noted that 1st round picks get a 3 year guaranteed contract. That's not a small commitment to players who may or may not be part of the future.
Earth Rider
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Charlotte drafted Brandon Miller last year. LaMelo, etc.. They have had some busts, like all teams have. Plus I highly doubt you are a talent scout. I've watched a lot of tape too. But fact is, the NBA draft may be the biggest crapshoot draft in all of sports.

I think if Salaun was there, the Spurs would have taken him. I would think they could have gotten better value for the 8 pick than a draft pick or two in 7 years. Matas or Cody would have been worth a shot IMO.
West Texan
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Some of y'all are just looking for reasons to be pissed and it's hilarious. It's fine to think we should have kept the pick and taken whoever you think was worth it, but acting like that's a fireable offense for Wright or that we have zero direction as a franchise are laughable takes.
TheNotoriousP.I.P.
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FTAG drops in here from time to time to take a dump on Pop and insist the game has passed him by. Just pulled up his profile and see that he is relatively active over on the Politics board, so I am gonna go out on a limb and say that he's one of those people that dislikes Pop's politics and then decides that this means that he is a bad basketball coach.
Guitarsoup
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Earth Rider said:

With Tre Jones and Branham I don't want to see the Spurs draft another point guard. I'd like to see how Branham develops. If Castle turns into a star, a good veteran PG behind him would be great.

Shooters need to be the priority in the second round. 3 and D would be nice, but mostly shooter is what is needed. Just not a point. Wemby is the only player to average plus 20 points last year.




Ignore Branham, he's not in the long term plans
Earth Rider
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West Texan said:

Some of y'all are just looking for reasons to be pissed and it's hilarious. It's fine to think we should have kept the pick and taken whoever you think was worth it, but acting like that's a fireable offense for Wright or that we have zero direction as a franchise are laughable takes.
Totally agree. I would have kept the pick, but I can see both sides to it. I would have tried to get better value than what they did for the 8th pick.

It doesn't really matter. Just hope they didn't miss out on Matas or Cody. Personally I liked Matas, but its a crapshoot.

Earth Rider
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Makes sense. What about Wesley?
Enzo The Baker
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Earth Rider said:

Makes sense. What about Wesley?

If Blake can develop an average catch and shoot 3, he has a spot in the top 9 in the short term.
Guitarsoup
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Guitarsoup
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flashplayer
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Enzo The Baker said:

Chicago officially going full rebuild unfortunately. Will be interesting if they can actually move LaVine and Vuc.



I am here for the "well, you were right, Flash" crow
Enzo The Baker
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flashplayer said:

Enzo The Baker said:

Chicago officially going full rebuild unfortunately. Will be interesting if they can actually move LaVine and Vuc.



I am here for the "well, you were right, Flash" crow

Still 3 more years before any crow will be eaten.
jteagle
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I had no idea that the 2nd round starts at 3:00. I just assumed that it would start at 7:00 like it normally does. Kinda weird.
Guitarsoup
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flashplayer said:

Enzo The Baker said:

Chicago officially going full rebuild unfortunately. Will be interesting if they can actually move LaVine and Vuc.



I am here for the "well, you were right, Flash" crow



Trading Vuc doesn't exactly make them worse

They turned down picks for Caruso to get a starting level player. Doesn't seem like a tank move
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