rsf0626 said:

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Jason Kidd has been so good during this finals run, but tonight he put on an absolute disasterclass. The amount of minutes THJ got is ridiculous

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THJ played 8 minutes in game 1 and zero minutes in game 2. He scored as many points in the 1st two games as he did tonight. I'd play him for 30 minutes in game 4 because it won't be worse than the 1st 3 games.

M.C. Swag said:

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Idk this was the worst game I think I've ever seen him play. Defensively and offensively he was pretty gross. I agree tho that the mavs aren't even at this point without him. But ya, this is gonna be a tough stain to wash out until he hoists his own trophy.

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This game will be immediately forgotten after game 4

M.C. Swag said:

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Idk this was the worst game I think I've ever seen him play. Defensively and offensively he was pretty gross. I agree tho that the mavs aren't even at this point without him. But ya, this is gonna be a tough stain to wash out until he hoists his own trophy.

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Worst game? Fouling out at that time was terrible but really?!?

FriscoKid said:

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HawthornAggie said:

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Maxi and Hardaway went a combined 0-7 in 27 mins and -29. MINUS 29???

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Maxi tries to play defense. He's not great, but at least he tries and he collects fouls.

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He still blows.

Zachary Klement said:

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FriscoKid said:

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HawthornAggie said:

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Maxi and Hardaway went a combined 0-7 in 27 mins and -29. MINUS 29???

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Maxi tries to play defense. He's not great, but at least he tries and he collects fouls.

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He still blows.

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He's clearly trying to play with a bum shoulder, but if it means he cant shoot then he shouldnt be on the court.
Same for THJ, but its just that he sucks ass .

The Celtics are good, but I cannot believe how bad the role players for the Mavs have disappeared after such great playoffs.

And playing THJ that much tonight is a firing squad level offense.

500,000ags said:

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This series definitely shows Luka still has some maturing to do. His TOs and FTs in game 2 were painful. His defense tonight was painful. He put so much pressure on the other guys to rotate for help and then close out, and then he wouldn't even get his arms up on some close outs.

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Feels like we say this way too much about Luka regarding maturity and defense

It's hard not to say that when during their best chance to turn the series, he basically melts down at both ends and ends up out of the game

100%. Criticism is fair, but what's happening with Luka feels beyond that. It's like a level of 'glee' that he's failing. Which, to be fair, happened with Lebron in '11. So it's not without precedent, but doesn't mean it's fair.

We can nitpick Luka all day, and I do think less negative plays by him makes this series more even. But we are at risk of a sweep because Kidd's rotations and the role players being completely overwhelmed by the Celtics. The refs are also calling a weird series allowing so much contact in the paint. Kyrie having 5 or so FT in game 3 is absolutely stupid.

Get onto Kidd all you want, but I don't see that he has a lot of options. Our only consistent plus player is Luka. Kyrie was a big plus yesterday but a big minus in game 2. Lively, DJJ and Washtington have ranged from barely plus to a big minus mostly due to defense and dunks. Everyone on else of the Mavs has been a giant minus and completely outmatched by the starters and bench of the Celtics.

When your supposed good 3 point shooting role players (THJ, Maxi, Hardy, Green, Exum, PJJ, Washington, Powell) all drop from 30-40% 3 point shooters down to 10%, then what's he supposed to do? Boston can crowd the pain and the lanes and lay off the 3 point line. We have 8 decent shooters all hitting a slump at the exact same time. I'd credit the Boston D but they aren't even contesting most of these. It's just a epic collapse by the entire team aside from Luka, and Luka is still just barely playing to his averages.

Anyone that uses terms like "foul baiting" or "heliocentric " is just regurgitating talking points from podcast people that don't actually know ball

? "foul hunting" better? It's just a term to describe how Luka sometimes seems more intent on draw a foul than making a play.

PatAg said:

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Anyone that uses terms like "foul baiting" or "heliocentric " is just regurgitating talking points from podcast people that don't actually know ball

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You watch the games? Luka foul hunts at many times instead of just trying to score. He does it a lot. It's not an incorrect talking point…

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Get onto Kidd all you want, but I don't see that he has a lot of options. Our only consistent plus player is Luka. Kyrie was a big plus yesterday but a big minus in game 2. Lively, DJJ and Washtington have ranged from barely plus to a big minus mostly due to defense and dunks. Everyone on else of the Mavs has been a giant minus and completely outmatched by the starters and bench of the Celtics.

When your supposed good 3 point shooting role players (THJ, Maxi, Hardy, Green, Exum, PJJ, Washington, Powell) all drop from 30-40% 3 point shooters down to 10%, then what's he supposed to do? Boston can crowd the pain and the lanes and lay off the 3 point line. We have 8 decent shooters all hitting a slump at the exact same time. I'd credit the Boston D but they aren't even contesting most of these. It's just a epic collapse by the entire team aside from Luka, and Luka is still just barely playing to his averages.

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He had numerous options other than THJ. THJ hasn't been good in months. He actually hasn't ever been good, but he hasn't shot the ball well consistently since the early part of the season. Playing Tim was unacceptable last night. Yes, other players are playing bad against the Celtics. Nobody has been playing worse than THJ. It was a horrible decision made by a staff that had made some good moves throughout the playoffs. One of those moves being not playing THJ anymore and playing Hardy instead.

At least Hardy wouldn't have been afraid to shoot like every other player on the team last night.

shack009 said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Get onto Kidd all you want, but I don't see that he has a lot of options. Our only consistent plus player is Luka. Kyrie was a big plus yesterday but a big minus in game 2. Lively, DJJ and Washtington have ranged from barely plus to a big minus mostly due to defense and dunks. Everyone on else of the Mavs has been a giant minus and completely outmatched by the starters and bench of the Celtics.

When your supposed good 3 point shooting role players (THJ, Maxi, Hardy, Green, Exum, PJJ, Washington, Powell) all drop from 30-40% 3 point shooters down to 10%, then what's he supposed to do? Boston can crowd the pain and the lanes and lay off the 3 point line. We have 8 decent shooters all hitting a slump at the exact same time. I'd credit the Boston D but they aren't even contesting most of these. It's just a epic collapse by the entire team aside from Luka, and Luka is still just barely playing to his averages.

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He had numerous options other than THJ. THJ hasn't been good in months. He actually hasn't ever been good, but he hasn't shot the ball well consistently since the early part of the season. Playing Tim was unacceptable last night. Yes, other players are playing bad against the Celtics. Nobody has been playing worse than THJ. It was a horrible decision made by a staff that had made some good moves throughout the playoffs. One of those moves being not playing THJ anymore and playing Hardy instead.

At least Hardy wouldn't have been afraid to shoot like every other player on the team last night.

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Kidd knows what he has in THJ. That's why he's barely played at all for the entire playoffs. But everyone on the team was either passing out of open looks or bricking shots. I don't fault him for trying out the old veteran, but it doesn't take 20 minutes to see that he didn't have it last night either.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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shack009 said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Get onto Kidd all you want, but I don't see that he has a lot of options. Our only consistent plus player is Luka. Kyrie was a big plus yesterday but a big minus in game 2. Lively, DJJ and Washtington have ranged from barely plus to a big minus mostly due to defense and dunks. Everyone on else of the Mavs has been a giant minus and completely outmatched by the starters and bench of the Celtics.

When your supposed good 3 point shooting role players (THJ, Maxi, Hardy, Green, Exum, PJJ, Washington, Powell) all drop from 30-40% 3 point shooters down to 10%, then what's he supposed to do? Boston can crowd the pain and the lanes and lay off the 3 point line. We have 8 decent shooters all hitting a slump at the exact same time. I'd credit the Boston D but they aren't even contesting most of these. It's just a epic collapse by the entire team aside from Luka, and Luka is still just barely playing to his averages.

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He had numerous options other than THJ. THJ hasn't been good in months. He actually hasn't ever been good, but he hasn't shot the ball well consistently since the early part of the season. Playing Tim was unacceptable last night. Yes, other players are playing bad against the Celtics. Nobody has been playing worse than THJ. It was a horrible decision made by a staff that had made some good moves throughout the playoffs. One of those moves being not playing THJ anymore and playing Hardy instead.

At least Hardy wouldn't have been afraid to shoot like every other player on the team last night.

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Kidd knows what he has in THJ. That's why he's barely played at all for the entire playoffs. But everyone on the team was either passing out of open looks or bricking shots. I don't fault him for trying out the old veteran, but it doesn't take 20 minutes to see that he didn't have it last night either.

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I really don't think this is true. They sub Tim in for defensive possessions. They did it for a lot of the playoffs. I think they think he is a good defender. Also Tim hasn't made a shot since May 18th. So he's not even a plus on offense either, which is allegedly his calling card.

Put Morris in or don't have OMax be a healthy scratch so you can put them in for end of quarter defensive possessions instead of THJ.

AgsWin2011 said:

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Seems like Luka and Caitlin Clark are the most hated people in basketball. I wonder why…

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Luka isn't remotely hated as much as Harden and Embiid nationally. Y'all just see it more for being Dallas fans.

We gotta dispute this charge @AmericanExpress https://t.co/V7o22aUSco

— Joe (@joeolson2009) June 13, 2024

AgsWin2011 said:

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Seems like Luka and Caitlin Clark are the most hated people in basketball. I wonder why…

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James Harden and Russell Westbrook are the most hated players of this generation by fans and both are black

Caitlin Clark is a fundamentally different thing because the fans love her while her fellow players hate her, and that's a product of the nature of women.

PatAg said:

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He just took us to the finals at age 25, and was dominant throughout.
We aren't even lost thr series, and everyone is just losing their mind about Luka. It's ridiculous

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It's all media narrative. When Lebron took an otherwise bad team to the Finals and got swept he was celebrated. Now this Mavs team has a lot more talent than that Cavs squad did, but I don't think any genuinely believes that Dallas was the best team in the West this year. They got hot at the right time and won a lot of close games in the playoffs but even post-deadline Denver and OKC were better by the aggregated metrics. And they are certainly far below Boston right now. Yet Luka dragged an an otherwise average team to the Finals and he's blamed for why they don't win it.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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PatAg said:

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He just took us to the finals at age 25, and was dominant throughout.
We aren't even lost thr series, and everyone is just losing their mind about Luka. It's ridiculous

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It's all media narrative. When Lebron took an otherwise bad team to the Finals and got swept he was celebrated. Now this Mavs team has a lot more talent than that Cavs squad did, but I don't think any genuinely believes that Dallas was the best team in the West this year. They got hot at the right time and won a lot of close games in the playoffs but even post-deadline Denver and OKC were better by the aggregated metrics. And they are certainly far below Boston right now. Yet Luka dragged an an otherwise average team to the Finals and he's blamed for why they don't win it.

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If you take the games after the bad stretch against Boston and Indiana in early March up to the last 2 games when the Mavs played no good players, the Mavs were the best team in the league by net rating. And I don't think it was all that close (I don't have access to these numbers to be able to say definitively). There were also some no Luka games in that stretch where we beat the Warriors who were on a hot streak and we played a tough game against OKC that was closer than the 10-point loss would suggest.

The post-deadline Mavs are built to be an elite regular season team and a team that can win most playoff matchups. The problem is we don't have the personnel to match up with 5 out teams. That's why Boston has dominated us all year and why Indiana destroyed us in those two games in early March.

You are way underselling the Mavs last few months and prospects going in to next year to flat out say "nobody believes the Mavs were the best team in the West this year." It's dumb because the Mavs were the best team in the West after the deadline if you remove some outlier games. But we have to figure out how our bigs can be more effective against smaller 5 out teams, or we have to acquire the personnel that will allow us to match up against 5 out teams when the situation calls for it.

Part of our issue with matching up against 5 out teams is that Luka has to guard on an island, rotate quickly, and box out when he rebounds. All things he hates to do and either gives little effort in or just can't do it because he is so worn down. That also makes his offense that much harder because he is tired.

These aren't narratives. They are based in reality. He is an exceptional talent that could be so much more effective on both ends if he would get his mind and his body right.

Defense has been borderline great outside of 2 quarters. Boston is averaging 15 points below their season average and if not for those 2 quarters they are otherwise on pace for 20 points below their average.

If you told me before the series that Boston would average 105ish points per game and Luka didn't miss any time with injuries I'd have told you they would win, probably in 5-6. I expected Boston to win by spreading us out and torching us from 3 but what has happened instead is they have just driven the Mavs offensive efficiency down so low that it's virtually impossible for them to win. You are NOT keeping this Celtics team in the 90s consistently no matter how good your defense is, so if you can't score the triple digits you have no shot.

I also don't think it's as simple as "hit your shots". Boston isn't allowing nearly as many open looks as our previous 3 opponents, their contest rate is very high. They are also taking away the corners.

They are all in on letting Luka have his and shutting down everyone else. The Mavs role players not playing well isn't because they just started being terrible players, it's because Boston is actively devoting quality defensive resources to making sure they can't help Luka and Kyrie.