He gets way too much credit as a coach. I hate the way he treats interviewers. His championships are because of the massive talent he has had. Look at what he has done without Mr. Duncan.

I don't know if Pop, Pat, Phil or Red are overrated or underrated because of the players they have.

I do know that Pop has a huge influence on the current coaches in the league:

Steve Kerr
Budendholzer
Taylor Jenkins
Joe Prunty (current Hawks) - Spurs assistant 9 years
Jacque Vaughn - Spurs player and coach 5 years
Tom Thibodeau - 2 seasons
Doc Rivers - 2 seasons as player
Monty Williams - 2 seasons as player
Mike Brown - 3 assistant
Will Hardy - 6 seasons

(Could add Quin Snyder and I'm sure there are others).

There's only 29 other franchises, and there are 10 guys who either player or coached with Pop (and there may be more, that's just a quick search). I know some are only a couple years, perhaps as a player, and I don't have any great observation from that except none of those guys really are over horribly dysfunctional franchises.


Now Budenholzer is producing a pretty solid tree, and I think a lot of that is selection and mentoring, not just one or the other:

The Atlanta Hawks once had a coaching staff of

Mike Budenholzer (Milwaukee Bucks NBA Champion)
Quin Snyder (incredible Utah Jazz head coach)
Kenny Atkinson (Brooklyn Nets legend)
Darvin Ham (current Los Angeles Lakers head coach)
Taylor Jenkins (Memphis Grizzlies coach)

BRUH pic.twitter.com/e4mcu8myIB

— Ben Stinar (@BenStinar) February 23, 2023

GigEmMortis said:

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Talent is pretty important. Ain't nobody winning many games with San Antonio's current roster

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. And Pop and the guys pop mentored did a pretty great job of identifying and developing talent.

He's in top 10 greatest NBA coaches. He had a lot to do with the acquisition of the talent and keeping it together.
All that said, he's not very good anymore and the talent level is terrible. He should have gone back to full time front office 4-5 years ago and hired one of the members of his coaching tree. Budenholzer parted ways with Atlanta 2017. That would have been the right time.

He would have retired if his wife hadn't died

Now he ain't got nothing to do

Just checking on how soon until Pop would have most games coached record or most losses. Obviously, the coaches who have done it the longest and most number of games will have the most losses.

Lenny Wilkens has 2487 games with 1155 losses.
Don Nelson has 2398 games with 1063 losses
Pop with 2107 games with 748 losses.
(Sloan and Larry Brown also over 2000 games, George Karl at 1999)

He needs over 4 more seasons to pass Wilkens on games coached (357 games), but even if he lost every single game of those 357, he would still fall short of Wilkens by 50 losses.

At this season's current winning percent, it would take him about 535 games to tie Wilkins in losses.
At his lifetime current winning percent, it would take him about 1162 games to tie Wilkins in losses, or over 14 seasons. (Math may not be 100% on all that).


Side note: For not coaching any Hall of Famers (during their prime) Wilkens has a pretty solid record.

jteagle said:

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Lake08 said:

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He gets way too much credit as a coach. I hate the way he treats interviewers. His championships are because of the massive talent he has had. Look at what he has done without Mr. Duncan.

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1st, how many coaches have won multiple championships and 2nd, how many of those coaches won those championships without massive talent?

Another question, how many coaches had massive talent and never won a championship?

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Basically the only coach in the modern era with more titles is Phil Jackson. How many did Phil win without Jordan, Pippen, Kobe or Shaq?

If you want to go back to the LBJ administration, Red win a bunch of titles with a cast of HOFers in an 8-team league

Guitarsoup said:

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jteagle said:

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Lake08 said:

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He gets way too much credit as a coach. I hate the way he treats interviewers. His championships are because of the massive talent he has had. Look at what he has done without Mr. Duncan.

---

1st, how many coaches have won multiple championships and 2nd, how many of those coaches won those championships without massive talent?

Another question, how many coaches had massive talent and never won a championship?

---

Basically the only coach in the modern era with more titles is Phil Jackson. How many did Phil win without Jordan, Pippen, Kobe or Shaq?

If you want to go back to the LBJ administration, Red win a bunch of titles with a cast of HOFers in an 8-team league

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In all this conversation about championship coaches we should probably mention Pat Riley. He won 5 with 2 different teams. Not saying he's rated above Popovich but he should be in the conversation.

SilverTongueDevil said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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jteagle said:

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Lake08 said:

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He gets way too much credit as a coach. I hate the way he treats interviewers. His championships are because of the massive talent he has had. Look at what he has done without Mr. Duncan.

---

1st, how many coaches have won multiple championships and 2nd, how many of those coaches won those championships without massive talent?

Another question, how many coaches had massive talent and never won a championship?

---

Basically the only coach in the modern era with more titles is Phil Jackson. How many did Phil win without Jordan, Pippen, Kobe or Shaq?

If you want to go back to the LBJ administration, Red win a bunch of titles with a cast of HOFers in an 8-team league

---

In all this conversation about championship coaches we should probably mention Pat Riley. He won 5 with 2 different teams. Not saying he's rated above Popovich but he should be in the conversation.

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I think most people have Riley as one of the best coaches of all time.

Four of his five titles were with Magic and Kareem - both considered top 5 players on most lists. His 06 win was impressive. Later-year Shaq and young Wade. He fired VanGundy in December and took over the team, so didn't have a full season.

Anyone that wins a title while depending on major contributions from Antoine Walker deserves a ton of credit.

Guitarsoup said:

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SilverTongueDevil said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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jteagle said:

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Lake08 said:

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He gets way too much credit as a coach. I hate the way he treats interviewers. His championships are because of the massive talent he has had. Look at what he has done without Mr. Duncan.

---

1st, how many coaches have won multiple championships and 2nd, how many of those coaches won those championships without massive talent?

Another question, how many coaches had massive talent and never won a championship?

---

Basically the only coach in the modern era with more titles is Phil Jackson. How many did Phil win without Jordan, Pippen, Kobe or Shaq?

If you want to go back to the LBJ administration, Red win a bunch of titles with a cast of HOFers in an 8-team league

---

In all this conversation about championship coaches we should probably mention Pat Riley. He won 5 with 2 different teams. Not saying he's rated above Popovich but he should be in the conversation.

---

I think most people have Riley as one of the best coaches of all time.

Four of his five titles were with Magic and Kareem - both considered top 5 players on most lists. His 06 win was impressive. Later-year Shaq and young Wade. He fired VanGundy in December and took over the team, so didn't have a full season.

Anyone that wins a title while depending on major contributions from Antoine Walker deserves a ton of credit.

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Agree and after he left LA he proved to be very effective in the front office. Built 2 different title teams with Miami.

SilverTongueDevil said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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SilverTongueDevil said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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jteagle said:

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Lake08 said:

---

He gets way too much credit as a coach. I hate the way he treats interviewers. His championships are because of the massive talent he has had. Look at what he has done without Mr. Duncan.

---

1st, how many coaches have won multiple championships and 2nd, how many of those coaches won those championships without massive talent?

Another question, how many coaches had massive talent and never won a championship?

---

Basically the only coach in the modern era with more titles is Phil Jackson. How many did Phil win without Jordan, Pippen, Kobe or Shaq?

If you want to go back to the LBJ administration, Red win a bunch of titles with a cast of HOFers in an 8-team league

---

In all this conversation about championship coaches we should probably mention Pat Riley. He won 5 with 2 different teams. Not saying he's rated above Popovich but he should be in the conversation.

---

I think most people have Riley as one of the best coaches of all time.

Four of his five titles were with Magic and Kareem - both considered top 5 players on most lists. His 06 win was impressive. Later-year Shaq and young Wade. He fired VanGundy in December and took over the team, so didn't have a full season.

Anyone that wins a title while depending on major contributions from Antoine Walker deserves a ton of credit.

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Agree and after he left LA he proved to be very effective in the front office. Built 2 different title teams with Miami.

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Yeah, Riley is an All-time executive for sure.

As a coach though, his Knicks and early Heat teams did disappoint a bit.

Ewing blew the 3-2 lead to Hakeem in the Finals. Obviously, Prime Hakeem >>> Prime Ewing, but that Knicks team also had prime Starks, Oakley, Charles Smith, Anthony Mason, young Greg Anthony and Hubert Davis and slightly over the hill Derek Harper. That was a good team. They struggled against the Jordanless- Pippen-Bulls, struggled against the Miller/Smits Pacers and then blew a lead against Houston.

That was the year that the Kemp/Payton/Detlef/Gill Sonics completely choked against 8-seed Mutumbo. Deke just destroyed Kemp.

The year before, Knicks had 60 wins and the 1 seed and still lost to the Bulls. Then in 95, the Pacers got revenge and beat Riley's #2 seed Knicks.

Riley bolted for Miami after that series and completely rebuilt that team in 2 years to a 61-win team, where they promptly lost to the Bulls in 5. But that 97 team was great. Zo, Hardaway, Mash, PJ Brown, old Majerle.

In 98, Miami had 55 wins, but still lost in the first round to the 7-seed Knicks (great series, btw.)

In 99, Miami was top seed in the East and lost to the Knick in the first round again.

In 00, finished in the 2nd seed, and you aren't going to believe this, but he lost to the Knicks for the third straight season, this time in the second round.

But the dream's not dead, right? Win 50 games again, get a 3-seed in a weak-ass conference. And... get Swept by Charlotte in the first round. Mashburn apparently really didn't like getting traded for Eddie Jones.

02, team is getting old, miss the playoffs.

03, Miss the playoffs again and land the 5th pick, DWade. Riley retires from coaching and promotes his top assistant, Stan Van Gundy.


Those Knicks and Heat teams were tough, played great defense, were a completely different style than the Showtime Lakers he previously coached, and they disappointed every year for over a decade.

That's why I would have Pop over Riley, personally.

Pop is top 5 all time. Like Phil Jackson and Pat Riley, he stepped into a team that got a lot of great talent. But he used that talent well and won several championships. He got unlucky that Kawhi Leonard was hurt a bit and then left the Spurs. Otherwise, I think he'd have had a championship in the post-Duncan era. There are better coaches in the history of the NBA, but not many.

Enzo The Baker said:

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One of the things that makes Pop so incredible is that he has adapted with several different types of offenses including inside out, motion and iso. Was highly successful with all three.

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Agree, big time. The first couple of championship teams played vastly different than the '07 team and by the time the "Beautiful Game" Spurs picked up another one it was completely different.

Meanwhile Red had a team full of HoFers and Phil has never won anything without the triangle and a top 2-3 all timer guy, or several top 10-15 all timers. Give me a team of randos coached by Pop and a team of randos coached by Phil and I'd take my chances with Pop's team.

Edited to add: yeah Guitarsoup's breakdown is way more detailed than mine.

superunknown said:

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Enzo The Baker said:

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One of the things that makes Pop so incredible is that he has adapted with several different types of offenses including inside out, motion and iso. Was highly successful with all three.

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Agree, big time. The first couple of championship teams played vastly different than the '07 team and by the time the "Beautiful Game" Spurs picked up another one it was completely different.

Meanwhile Red had a team full of HoFers and Phil has never won anything without the triangle and a top 2-3 all timer guy, or several top 10-15 all timers. Give me a team of randos coached by Pop and a team of randos coached by Phil and I'd take my chances with Pop's team.

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Exactly. Phil had that 72 win Bulls team.

Look at the playoff stats:

Jordan 31ppg
Pippen 17ppg
Kukoc 10ppg
Ron Harper 8.8ppg
Everyone else is below Harper.

Phil obviously did a great job coaching them, but it was the Jordan show. Rodman and Harper played some great D, along with Jordan and Pip, who are all-time defensive greats.

But you basically have 4 HOF players in their prime and other guys that pass them the ball. Pip is probably top 30 all time, Rodman is maybe a top 10 defensive player of all time. Jordan is the GOAT.

I think Phil is the right coach for that team, because he did a great job of balancing a bunch of very strong personalities, but I also think a lot of other coaches we don't think of as a greatest coach of all time could have won with the Jordan Bulls. Remember the Pippen Bulls of 94 won 55 games, took the Knicks to 7, and were one of the top defensive squads in the league. I've always heard that Phil wasn't the real X&O guy, he was the guy that kept everyone in line while HOF coach Tex Winter did the X&Os. Tex is in the Basketball and College HOFs for a reason, right?

Agree with Phil's ego managing skills and Tex's Xs and Os. I never really gave Pip the credit for how good he was on those Bulls teams, always figured he got all his meals off Jordan's leftovers. Looking back though, once you get past the HoF Celtics and Lakers running through the 80s...the 90s saw talent spread out a bit more. I don't know if Pippen could have carried a team on his own...his Blazers teams were always just a bit lacking, same for his Rockets days. But he's maybe the best #2 guy on a team, ever. With the Bulls, Jordan can do it all and then right behind him is 80% of Jordan? And instead of the scoring you get top level defense? That's as good as it gets.

And now I'm thinking about "super" teams and "big 3s" etc. Like the ones that were successful and the ones that weren't. As much as people love to say there's no strategy and it's just roll out the ball chaos playground ball...that's not really true at all. How you build your team plays such a huge role on the style you play, arguably moreso than other team pro sports. As much as I loved 4 down till the game's over in Tim's heyday, I love the Beautiful Game just as much. I guess I just like watching winning at the highest level and damn fortunate that my first and best sports rooting interest got to the top of the mountain several times. I'm glad Pop didn't get in Tim's way too much.

Quote:

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Agree with Phil's ego managing skills and Tex's Xs and Os. I never really gave Pip the credit for how good he was on those Bulls teams, always figured he got all his meals off Jordan's leftovers. Looking back though, once you get past the HoF Celtics and Lakers running through the 80s...the 90s saw talent spread out a bit more. I don't know if Pippen could have carried a team on his own...his Blazers teams were always just a bit lacking, same for his Rockets days. But he's maybe the best #2 guy on a team, ever. With the Bulls, Jordan can do it all and then right behind him is 80% of Jordan? And instead of the scoring you get top level defense? That's as good as it gets.

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I am a huge proponent of Scottie Pippen being one of the most underrated rated stars of all time.

Remember in the 97-98 season, Pippen had ankle surgery and wrist surgery and missed almost half the season, then in the playoffs he had two herniated discs. He said that if Jordan didn't hit that game 6 winner, he wouldn't have been able to play game 7. Pip had surgery after the series on his back, then was traded to Chicago for a future second round pick, which Chicago then traded for another future second round pick that ended up being the Red Mamba himself, Coach B.

But after the ankle, wrist, and two herniated disc surgeries in 97-98, Pippen was never the same. Pippen played 40mpg in Houston and only put up 14.5ppg. Then he was traded to Portland, where he never reached 13ppg.

Pippen was basically the lead guard at SF and also usually got the tougher wing assignment on defense.

From 1992 until 1997, Pippen averaged:

20 ppg
8 rpg
6 apg
1 bpg
2.2 spg
48% FG
34% 3FG
1st Team All-Defense every single year
1st Team All-NBA 3x
2nd Team All-NBA 2x
3rd Team All-NBA 3x

Now, I think Pippen struggled some with Jordan getting all the praise and I don't think Pippen was always a model teammate, but I think he is probably a top 20-30 all-time player. His peak was essentially 21-22ppg, 8rpg, 7apg, 3spg and could guard 3-4 positions.

Pip was a good offensive player, but I don't think he was even the primary scorer you think of as your #1 player on a championship team. He had one season as a top 10 scorer and 3 other seasons in top-20.

That said, I think he is better than anyone on the 04 Pistons Championship team. But I am not sure that you could sub prime Pip for Raptors Kawhi and still see them win it all, because you needed Kawhi to score like crazy, too. But swap Pierce for prime Pip and those Celtics teams are even more terrifying.

Ultimately, Pippen was the ideal Robin to Jordan's batman. Pip could handle all the point duties and could guard front court and backcourt. That allowed Chicago to give guys like BJ, Kerr and Paxton serious minutes at PG where they were essentially just there to knock down open threes created by teams collapsing on Jordan and Pip.

Quote:

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Pop is top 5 all time. Like Phil Jackson and Pat Riley, he stepped into a team that got a lot of great talent.

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I'm gonna disagree a bit here.

Phil took over the Bulls after they made it to the Eastern Conference Finals and lost in 6 to the Bad Boy Pistons. Phil inherited a team with:
GOAT: 32.5/8.0/8.0/2.9s and had already been NBA MVP, DPOY, and had 3 straight scoring titles
Pippen: 2nd year, already elite defensively
Grant: 12/9 on 52% shooting in his second season
Bill Cartwright: Had been an all-star prior to major injuries, still effective in limited minutes
John Paxton: Solid PG to put with MJ/Pip.

Notice that's the starting five for the next 5 years or so. All there when Phil arrived. Also 3-pt specialist Craig Hodges.

Phil had 2 first rounders that year and used them on Stacy King (over Shawn Kemp, Tim Hardaway, and Mookie Blaylock) and BJ Armstong (over Clifford Robinson and Vlade Divac). Imagine if Phil got that draft right. Hardaway was better than Mookie, but Mookie was a lot better at defense. A Mookie/Jordan/Pip defense would be best ever.

But in any event, the core that Phil inherited was what he used to win those first three titles.

Then after the second three-peat, Phil took over the Lakers that had just been swept by the Spurs. That team was ridiculously loaded.
20yo Kobe, already on All-NBA team
26yo Shaq, averaged 28/12 over his previous 5 years
24yo Derek Fisher
29yo Rick Fox
28yo Robert Horry
31yo Glenn Rice (18ppg and 39% from three that year)

****ing talented as hell, ready made team. Just needs someone to deal with Kobe and Shaq's personalities.

Likewise, with Riley, he built the Heat teams that won titles, but he inherited a ridiculously talented Lakers team that had won the title a year and a half before.

Riley had been an assistant for the Lakers since Magic's rookie season and Magic got the Lakers to fire Westhead to promote Riley, who would run Magic's preferred Showtime Lakers, rather than pound it with Kareem.

Riley inherited:
Old Man KAJ, still putting up 24/9
Magic, 22yo, avg 19p, 9.6a, 9.5r
Jamaal Wilkes 28yo, putting up 22/5
Norm Nixon, 26yo allstar
Michael Cooper, 25yo elite defender
Bob McAdoo 30yo former MVP
Kurt Rambis, 23yo
Also, they had pick swapped the Cavs before Riley was there and the Cavs were awful, the Lakers got the 1st pick and landed HOFer James Worthy.


Pop was the Spurs executive for a couple years before he took over as coach. As executive, he had to undo a lot of the stuff the previous owners/executives did.

Red McCombs turned down a Barkley for Sean Elliott trade. Red had fired Larry Brown and installed Tark the Shark, who lasted almost two dozen games. Then Red wouldn't pay to keep Rod Strickland when they could just get Vinny Del Negro for a buck fifty and an all-you-can-eat Olive Garden card.

Then the new owners traded for Rodman. Still didn't have a PG, so **** it, let Avery Johnson do it.

Pop traded a first for Sean Elliott back after Elliott failed his physical that would have sent him to Houston.

Took 8 cents on the dollar to dump Rodman's crazy ass.
Traded JR Reid and a 1st for Charles Smith to replace Rodman at PF, only Smith promptly blew out both knees, ending his career.

So this is the team Pop inherited:
32yo Avery Johnson at PG.
32yo David Robinson, former MVP/DPOY, but coming back from multiple surgeries of feet/back/hernia.
31yo Vinny DelNegro
29yo Sean Elliott- who missed most of 97 with injuries, and then again in 98. The Lockout season was Elliott's last full season and he put up just 11/4 and was a shadow of what he could have been. After the Memorial Day Miracle and the championship, Sean had a kidney transplant.
30yo Jaren Jackson. He once averaged almost 9 ppg. ****ing destroyed Kobe in the playoffs, though.
33yo Chuck Person coming back from major back surgery. He never really recovered from that injury.
32yo Will Purdue. Easily a top 10 white stiff traded for Rodman
23yo Malik Rose. The 6'4 center.

Luckily pop landed that Duncan pick, despite 3rd best odds. But even then, he had to completely rebuild the team. Robinson coming off multiple surgeries plus rookie GOATPF isn't exactly the same as getting 20yo Kobe+26 yo Shaq or Jordan+Pipp or Magic+KAJ.

Pop rebuilding and retooling that team year after year from 1996-2017 is all-time incredible.

Pop was a great coach, but I will never be a fan of his. He is the one that started all this load management crap. Miss the days when stars would play through injuries and sickness. Whether it was a will to win, duty to fans and team, or there was never even a consideration of just taking days off when making millions.

Bogey1996 said:

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Pop was a great coach, but I will never be a fan of his. He is the one that started all this load management crap. Miss the days when stars would play through injuries and sickness. Whether it was a will to win, duty to fans and team, or there was never even a consideration of just taking days off when making millions.

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I would rather get an extra season or two out of my favorite star than care about them playing the second night of a break to back against a **** team.

Load management is likely what allowed the Spurs to win in 2014 and still a 67 win team in 16, Duncan's last year

Guitarsoup said:

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Bogey1996 said:

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Pop was a great coach, but I will never be a fan of his. He is the one that started all this load management crap. Miss the days when stars would play through injuries and sickness. Whether it was a will to win, duty to fans and team, or there was never even a consideration of just taking days off when making millions.

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I would rather get an extra season or two out of my favorite star than care about them playing the second night of a break to back against a **** team.

Load management is likely what allowed the Spurs to win in 2014 and still a 67 win team in 16, Duncan's last year

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If you go to any games, they are so damn expensive these days. Try taking your kid to a game and then find out stars are load managing. Come on. They are supposedly in prime shape. Guys of the past played and they didn't have all the benefits from dieticians, private jets, etc.

If they are going to load manage, league needs to fine both team and player heavily. Maybe force them to pay refunds. Real injuries happen and that sucks, but taking days off doesn't just happen.

Guitarsoup said:

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Bogey1996 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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Bogey1996 said:

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Pop was a great coach, but I will never be a fan of his. He is the one that started all this load management crap. Miss the days when stars would play through injuries and sickness. Whether it was a will to win, duty to fans and team, or there was never even a consideration of just taking days off when making millions.

---

I would rather get an extra season or two out of my favorite star than care about them playing the second night of a break to back against a **** team.

Load management is likely what allowed the Spurs to win in 2014 and still a 67 win team in 16, Duncan's last year

---

If you go to any games, they are so damn expensive these days. Try taking your kid to a game and then find out stars are load managing. Come on. They are supposedly in prime shape. Guys of the past played and they didn't have all the benefits from dieticians, private jets, etc.

If they are going to load manage, league needs to fine both team and player heavily. Maybe force them to pay refunds. Real injuries happen and that sucks, but taking days off doesn't just happen.

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Or maybe the league should listen to doctor and trainers like coaches do and stop scheduling four games in five days.

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I'm cool with shortening the season since it's too hard for these athletes to take. Bet none would be willing to take a decrease in pay though.

Bogey1996 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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Bogey1996 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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Bogey1996 said:

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Pop was a great coach, but I will never be a fan of his. He is the one that started all this load management crap. Miss the days when stars would play through injuries and sickness. Whether it was a will to win, duty to fans and team, or there was never even a consideration of just taking days off when making millions.

---

I would rather get an extra season or two out of my favorite star than care about them playing the second night of a break to back against a **** team.

Load management is likely what allowed the Spurs to win in 2014 and still a 67 win team in 16, Duncan's last year

---

If you go to any games, they are so damn expensive these days. Try taking your kid to a game and then find out stars are load managing. Come on. They are supposedly in prime shape. Guys of the past played and they didn't have all the benefits from dieticians, private jets, etc.

If they are going to load manage, league needs to fine both team and player heavily. Maybe force them to pay refunds. Real injuries happen and that sucks, but taking days off doesn't just happen.

---

Or maybe the league should listen to doctor and trainers like coaches do and stop scheduling four games in five days.

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I'm cool with shortening the season since it's too hard for these athletes to take. Bet none would be willing to take a decrease in pay though.

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I didn't say shorten the season.

Is it too hard for them or are they just trying to avoid having Bill Walton and Ralph Sampson injuries? There is a huge difference.

I bet lots of little Portland kids had their hearts broken that Walton was over used and it ruined his career

Seems like you'd be better off just not being an NBA fan, honestly. Teams are going to manage their best players to not piss them off and even then, it doesn't always work. Ask Uncle Dennis and the team of doctors Kawhi Leonaed hid behind for a year and a half because he didn't want to be in San Antonio any longer.