So the imitation super team Brooklyn put together is now officially toast. My question is how will KD be remembered in the historical perspective. Is he really any different than players like Harden and Westbrook? Players you can't build a team around and win a title but that can regularity fill up a stat sheet?

He went to an established Warriors team and got rings. Otherwise I don't think he would have ever gotten one. Hall of famer for sure but IMO more a Robin not a Batman.

In 30 years will kids even know who Durant, Westbrook, Harden, K Irving are?

Kevin Durant is a top 15 player of all-time if he retired tomorrow.

Head Ninja In Charge said:

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Kevin Durant is a top 15 player of all-time if he retired tomorrow.

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You would have to insult a lot of historically great players to put Durant in your top 15. Lots of recency bias in perspective among today's fans. There are 25+ olayers who are all time greats that were "The Man"
on their teams that franchises built the team around and won championships. I have to put Durant behind all of those players.

But modern day fans probably look at Russell Westbrook's stats and think he was better than Oscar Robertson.

hph6203 said:

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Name them. I bet you can't. And I bet even if you did Durant was better than most.

Durant is better than Dirk, and that pains me to say. In the last 40 years you have:

Magic
Bird
Malone/Dr. J
Isiah Thomas
Jordan
Olajuwon
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Wade
Garnett/Pierce/Allen
Dirk
Curry
Giannis

As the central players of their teams for championships.
KD is better than Curry, Dirk, the Celtics triumvirate, Giannis (so far), Isiah Thomas and Wade.

You have to find 7 more central figures in the 1940-1980 range to legitimize your criticism.

Before that you have:
Kareem
Havlicek
West
Wes Unseld
Wilt
Russell

I wouldn't entertain any non-sense about pre-1960's players.

If KD isn't top 15, then he's 16 or 17. There aren't 25+ guys that teams were built around that won championships.

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What metric are you using to state that Durant is better than Dirk or other greats that you might rate him ahead of? He's averaging 27 ppg for his career for his career That's outstanding. He avg 7 RPG. That's decent. But there are a lot of great scorers. Carmelo Anthony is 9th all time. Durant has been in the NBA since 2007. So during his era obviodly Lebron and Kobe and Shaq, Duncan are ahead of him and I think Dirk and S Curry are too. Some overlap as they didn't play exact same time period.

But if he's as great as you say he is why didn't his teams have more success outside his time with Golden st? Yes OKC made the finals but when you have westbrook and Harden with you shouldn't that be expected.

But again I think recency bias plays a part. 15 years ago the talking heads were saying Steve Nash was one of the top 3 point guards of all time. You would never hear anyone making that claim today.

There's a reasonable argument to be made that he's the best perimeter scorer in the history of basketball. His career efficiency metrics from 12-15 feet and beyond are insane. He's essentially a much more athletic version of Dirk.

He's easily a top-15 player in history

Counter point, Dirk > All

Ifs and buts…

GTFOH comparing yeasty ass Durant to Jordan. Great player, great stats but not in the same league.

hph6203 said:

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Name them. I bet you can't .

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Easy. Durant is at best in the 20-25 range. These 19 guys are all definitely better (these are not ranked, just alphabetical to avoid thread derail). This doesn't even include others you can make a compelling case for, like Isiah Thomas, Rick Barry, etc.

Abdul-Jabbar
Barkley
Baylor
Bird
Bryant
Chamberlain
Duncan
Garnett
James
Johnson
Jordan
Malone
Nowitzki
Olajuwon
O'Neal
Robertson
Russell
Stockton
West

Durant is absolutely an elite perimeter scorer. But he has never been an elite defender, nor the guy that is going to guard the other team's stud in crunch time. OKC would have Thabo, Ibaka, and Perkins to do that and GSW had Draymond, Klay, and Iggy.

4x scoring champ, MVP, joined a championship team to win two rings. He has a decent resume.

Durant's career numbers per game are 27p, 7r, 4a, 1s, 1b

(numbering isn't my all-time ranking, just to count easier guys better than Durant)

1. Jordan: Goat
2. LeBron: Wannabe Jordan
3. KAJ: 6xMVP, 2x scoring, 4x blocks (and they didnt count blocks his first 4 seasons), 6 rings, 11x All-D
4. Magic: retired steal and assist all-time leader. 3x MVP, 5xChamp
5. Bird: 3xMVP, 3xAllD, Elite perimeter scorer, but played much better defense and rebounded much better than Durant.
6. DrJ: 4x MVP, 3x Champ, 3x scoring title and was All-D. Averaged 2.0 steals and 1.7 blocks for his career.
7. Hondo. Not as good a scorer, but elite defender. 8x rings. 24/7/6 for his prime.
8. Robinson. MVP. 2x Champ. DPOY, Scoring Title, Rebound Title, Block Title. Pre-Injury Prime 26p/12r/3a/1.7s/3.4b per game.
9. Garnett. MVP, Champ, 12xAllD, DPOY, 4x reb champ. Prime (99-07) 22p 12r, 5a, 1.4s, 1.6b
10. Cousey. MVP, 8 straight Assist titles, 6x NBA Champ.
11. Karl Malone: 2 MVPs he didn't deserve, multiple All-Defense. Prime (88-00) 27p, 11r, 3.5a, 1.4s
12. Pettitt: 2x MVP, Champion, 2x scoring and reb champ. Career 26p16r
13. Snaq OMeal: MVP, All-Defense, 4 rings.
14. Moses Malone: 3x MVP, multiple All-D, 6x Reb champ. Prime: (79-87) 26p, 14r
15. Hakeem: 2 Rings, MVP, 2 DPOY, Multiple Reb/Block titles. Prime (86-96) 25p, 12r, 2.8a, 1.9s, 3.8b.
16. Oscar: MVP, Ring, 6x Assist title, Prime (61-69) 30p, 11a, 9r
17. Jerry West: Ring, Scoring title, All-Def 5x, assist title, Prime (62-72) 29p, 7a, 6r.
18. Kobe: MVP, 5x rings, All-Def 12x, 2x scoring champ. Prime (01-13) 28p, 7r, 5a, 1.8s
19. Duncan: GOATPF.
20. Wilt. Monster on both ends of the court. Rings and MVPs
21. Pippen. 6x rings. He was to perimeter defense what Durant was to perimeter offense. Only Pippen was a great offensive player as well. Prime 20p, 8r, 7a, 2.2s 1b. Basically ran the point and the defense.
22. Elvin Hayes: Scoring Champ, 2x rebound champ, Multiple All-NBA and All-Def and a Ring.
23: Curry. 2x MVP, 2x Scoring, 1x STL champ, 4x rings, revolutionized the game 27p, 7a, 5r, 1.6s on 49/43/91 shooting since 2013
24: Giannis : Ring, DPOY, 2x MVP, 29/12/6 over last 6 years as an elite defender.


Guys in Durant's grouping:

Rick Barry: Scoring champ, steal champ, NBA Champ, 27p, 7r, 5a, 2s per game for his career.
Stockton: Hard to compare, but he was the best pure PG in the league. 7 straight assist titles, 2x steal titles. All-NBA 11x and All-D 5x.
Isiah Thomas: 2x Champ, Put up 20p, 10a, 4r, 2s for his prime in83-91
Barkley: MVP, Reb Champ, Prime: 25/12/4/1.6 87-96
Elgin Baylor, 27p14r for career.
Walton: Block, Rebound champ. NBA Champ, MVP, 6MOY.
Wade: 3x champ, scoring title, 3x all def, 3 rings. Prime: 27p, 7a, 6r, 2s, 1.1b. With better longevity, could argue he was better than Durant all-around.
PJ Tucker: Still Dribbling
Willis Reed: MVP. All-Def, 2x Champ
Gervin: 4x scoring champ, prime 29p5r
Nash: 2x MVP, 5x Assist title, loses points for being poor defender
McHale: Prime 23/8/2 player with elite defensive skills.
Iverson: 4x Scoring Champ, 3x steal champ, MVP, Prime 30p, 6a, 3r, 2.4s
Dirk: MVP, Champ, Prime 25/9/3
Walt Fraizer: 2x Champ, AllNBA and AllDef. Prime 22/7/7/2
Kidd: Elite defender, elite PG (6x assist champ) Ring.
Westbrick: MVP, 2x Assist titles, 2x scoring titles, Prime 25p, 9a, 8r, 1.8s
Kawhi: 2x ring, 2x DPoy, 2x stl champ, 25/7/4/2 prime
Chris Paul: 9x All-NBA, 11x All-D. 5x assist titles, 6x steals. 18p, 10a, 5r, 2s for his entire career
James Harden: MVP, 3x scoring title, sometimes forgets there are two ends of the court, team cancer
Anthony Davis: By talent, should be on the first list, but I think he's too much of a *****. Ring, 3x block champ, All-Def, 25/11 with 2.5b and 1.1s since his second season.

May end up better than Durant:
Jokic: 2x MVP, 24/11/8 over the last 5 seasons. Averaging a trip-doub as a center.
Luka: 29/9/9 over the last 4 years

Yeah, Dirk's ring is significantly more impressive than Durant's two, imo.

However, Durant is a better offensive player and a better defensive player than Dirk.

I'd much rather have Dirk as a teammate (especially post-2007 Dirk).

Durant had some extremely talented teams get trounced in the playoffs, but it usually wasn't Durant that choked it away.

2010: #8 OKC vs #1 Lakers. OKC had Durant, Harden, Westbrook, Green, Ibaka. Durant didn't shoot well, but that team had no chance vs Kobe.
2011: #4 OKC loses to #3 Dallas (eventual champs). Durant put up 29/9/4, though his shooting was down a bit. Brodie shot 36%/20%, which is bad even for him.
2012: Made it to the Heatles, but didn't learn anything from Dirk. Vs Miami, Durant shot 55%/40% for 31ppg, 6r, 1.4s, 1b. Harden had his typical playoff choke. 37%/31% and Westbrook was 3 of 22 from 3. Ibaka put up just 7&5.
2013: Lost in 2nd round to ZBo Grizzlies. Westbrook missed the 2nd round after PatBev cheap shot him as a timeout was being called and tore his knee up. Durant put up 29/10/7 and was the only offensive threat.
2014: Lost to the Beautiful Game Spurs. Durant put up 26/8 with lower shooting than normal. But they had no shot.
2015: Played only 27 games all year and missed the playoffs with a Jones Fracture. Rockets fans think he should have played with a broken foot any way because they are dumber than a bag of rocks.
2016: Lose to GSW in 7. Durant put up 30/8/3/1.7/1.7. Westbrook shot below 40% and below 32% from 3. GSW was down 3-1 and came back. Durant scored 40, 29, and 27 in those last three games. Team needed a 3rd offensive option. If only they had someone like James Harden.
Joints GSW.
2019: Lost to Toronto. After nursing a calf injury, Durant blows out his achilles. Seems like Zaza Karma there.
2020: DNP
2021: Durant puts up 35/11/5 against Khris Middleton and his Greek Sidekick, but it isn't enough and Brooklyn loses in 7. Kyrie only played in 4 games. Probably got stuck at the corner of the earth or something. James Harden puts in a typical playoff performance with 30% from the field and 10ppg.
2022: Swept by Robert Williams, Derrick White and some other guys. Durant didn't shoot well, but still put up 26/6/6.

Most of the time, Durant was't the reason his team lost in the playoffs. That 22 team was no where near as good as Boston. None of his playoff losses are as bad as Dirk's meltdown in 07 or the 06 Finals. Dirk shot 39/25 in the Finals vs Miami in 06 including a 2-14 and 4-14 night. In Game 6 against #8 GSW, he put up 2-13 for 8 points. Durant never had a single-digit scoring game in his playoff career. Dirk has 3, including a closeout game. In 155 playoff games, Durant scored under 20p in just 13 (and some were because of blowouts, his team went 8-5 in those games). Dirk scored under 20p in 35 of 145 playoff games. Mavs were 14-21 in those games.

Durant has unquestionably had better talent around him than Dirk did, but most of Durant's playoff losses were because of injury (vs Toronto) or dip**** teammates (Harden, Westbrook, Kyrie).

I value Dirk's 1 ring more than Durant's 2 and think that Dirk is a better teammate and better face of the franchise/statesman. But as purely a basketball player, I would rather have Durant on offense and on defense.

Gotcha, you don't care about any examples of Durant doing ****ty things.

Personally, I take Durant throwing his teammates under the bus publicly as him being a ****ty teammate.

Durant pushed Presti to fire Scott Brooks. No chance Brooks (three WCF, one Finals appearance) is fired a year before Durant's free agency without Durant's push.

Presti then hired Florida coach Billy Donovan and Durant publicly trashed Donovan when he left.

Durant went to Golden State after OKC lost to GSW and Durant hated Kerr. Durant has actually said Kerr's offense is not good, when Kerr will go down as a much better coach (especially offensively) than Durant will go down as a player. What was Durant's big problem with Kerr? Kerr wouldn't call enough isos for Durant. That seems like a really me-first guy.

Then Durant goes to Brooklyn where he gets them to fire Kenny Atkinson and hand pick the new coach - Steve Nash, who had worked with Durant in Golden State. Only Nash sucks and Durant gets him fired, too.

Pretty sure Scott Brooks is the only coach Durant ever had nice things to say about.

Durant's beef with Draymond was because Durant wanted more touches.

Draymond:

Quote:

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"So we're playing the Clippers, and you know how I am -- I'm gonna roll with you, I'll take the bullet for you, I'll take the heat in the media for you, I'll take the suspension for you, I'll take the fine, I'll take the tech, whatever -- for my guys. But in return, all I need from you is just to know that you're with me ...

"He comes to the bench and he slaps the bench like, 'Yo! Pass me the f--king ball.' I'm like, 'Get the f--k outta here. F--king run then.' And he's like, 'You heard what the f--k I said' and slaps the chair: 'Pass me the f--king ball.' I'm like, 'Yo, you better calm the f--k down. I don't know who the f--k you think you're talking to.'

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If you remember that play, Draymond got the rebound WITH FOUR SECONDS and turned to push it immediately because the clock was almost out. Durant was clapping at him to pass. When Draymond didn't pass it BACKWARDS to Durant with the clock winding down, Durant quit on the play and didn't cross the court. Draymond was expecting Durant to be trailing and be open for the three, but Durant sat on the other end of the court like the ***** he is because he didn't get his way.

Quote:

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When I get the rebound, what do I do? I get the rebound. I push the ball. I find one of them. So, I get the rebound. I take off. He clapped loudest s. I'm like, "Yo, come on." I'm taking off. I'm going. I start to cross over and go across court. And in my mind, I'm already thinking like, "Oh, he trailing. I'm about to cross over and take this guy standing here, and I'm going to just flip it back. He going to step into a 3. He step into a 3, it's game over, and we out of here.

He stood back there clapping and kind of moseying up. So, when I go across, I'm waiting to flip. He kind of not there

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On the Warriors previous possession, Durant jacked up a 31' three and missed and two possessions before that, he got his **** packed by Trez. So Durant took over in OT, right? No he missed a mid-range shot then had a sloppy non-shooting foul to foul out a minute into OT. Durant's statline from the game looked good, but in the 2H+OT, he was 3-12 with 4 turnovers and fouled out.

Quote:

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It wasn't a problem in 2017. But now in 2018, it's always an issue. And so that was a challenge, just trying to figure out, how is Kevin going to react to certain s that would happen with the team or that Steve Kerr would do. Steve Kerr would call a play for him, and he'd be like, "I don't fing want you to call a play. I want you to fing make them play the right way." And it's like, yo, what are you talking about? You you say you need the ball, and you want the ball. But then when I call the play for you. It ain't that. So what is it? It's obviously a much bigger problem than just you getting the ball.

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Quote:

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I'm talking to Bob Myers. I'm like, "Yo, I don't think Kevin coming back here." And, you know, Kevin has said to me once before like, "They keep this bulls up, I'll get out of here." And me and K was real close. So, I'm always in between everybody talking him off the ledge, fing telling Steph like, "Yo, we need to get K a touch."

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Yeah, seems like Durant is a great teammate.

https://theathletic.com/4215043/2023/02/16/kevin-durant-phoenix-suns-presser/

Quote:

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• The 34-year-old Durant, who got emotional discussing his time in Brooklyn, said it was "tough for (him) to stomach" that the Nets couldn't finish what they started this season after Irving's request. He added that the Nets didn't have a "clear identity" without Irving, but that he didn't know what was going on between Irving and the Nets organization.

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Ahh, yeah Kyrie's fault.


Oh wait.

https://theathletic.com/3485297/2022/08/08/kevin-durant-nets-trade-steve-nash/
Kevin Durant tells Nets owner to trade him or fire Steve Nash, Sean Marks: Sources

Kevin Durant has the Phoenix Suns listed as a preferred trade destination, league sources tell @YahooSports.

— Chris Haynes (@ChrisBHaynes) June 30, 2022

Phoenix and Miami are among two of the teams that Kevin Durant has on his wish list, sources tell ESPN, but the Nets plan to move Durant where they can get the best possible deal. With four years on his contract, there's no shortage of teams willing to unload assets for Durant.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) June 30, 2022

Yeah, Kevin. Kyrie really poisoned the team's chemistry and ruined everything. Oh wait, no.