Sin duda.

Obviously

Long time Spurs fan here and love ginobli

I'd hesitate to say rings get him in - being on a team that wins isn't enough, ask Horry

They'll look at stats and individual awards with more weight.

I think he might get in but I don't feel it's a sure thing at all, never a "star"

My issue is he was never close to be the best player in the NBA at any point. He's never been the MVP of the NBA and he's never been a perennial All-Star. Now it is the BASKETBALL HoF and not just the NBA so the Euro awards can have some weight. I agree that he has a stronger case than Yao.

Like I said, I could vote him in if I had a vote. I just disagree that it is a slam dunk.

Definitely hope that gets him in - is it NBA hall of game or basketball hall of fame? It's an interesting test

I love his career

Not sure why it's so hard for people to figure out that it's the BASKETBALL hall of fame, not NBA. Lotta people who did a lot less have made it in. Manu is a lock and anyone who says differently either doesn't understand how the Hof works or just hates Manu.

Frok: Jamaal Wilkes is in the HOF and was never even on an All-NBA team. No international play at all. Wasn't POY in college.

Don't think he was ever in the conversation for best player in the NBA. That't obviously not their criteria.

So is Luis Scola considered a potential HOFer as well?

He's a no brainer 1st ballot guy with the way the basketball HOF is set up. Not even a discussion.

1st ballot. No brainier.

Agree. 1st ballot easily.

I think he would be a good candidate even if it was just based on NBA performance.

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Well he's first ballot for the flop HOF no doubt.

Any statues made of him should depict him in a position flying backward.

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harr harr harr :|

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Four titles and almost won Finals MVP in 2005 (maybe deserved it.)
MVP of championship Euroleague team.
MVP of the Argentina team that beat the Dream Team and won the Olympic Gold - only time a team other than the Dream team won the Gold since 92.
MVP of FIBAs Americas
2x Italian League MVP
Italian Cup MVP
Named 50 Greatest Euroleague Contributors ever

Yao Ming was a first ballot. That makes Manu an absolute lock for the first ballot. There is not question at all.

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Yao Ming played as a true center with legitimate offensive ability in an era when there was and still is an absolute void of any offensive talent at that position. He also brought the popularity of basketball in a country of over 1.3 billion to all new heights (it's now probably the number one ball sport in China). That's far more impactful than anything Manu accomplished in Europe or South America.

You can't compare Yao as a player to Manu, you have to compare Yao to other centers of his time and throughout history. Same goes for Manu and his position and the fact of the matter is that Manu doesn't stack up well against others at his position.

Manu statistically and internationally speaking compares well to Toni Kukoc. Both won MVPs overseas, Kukoc finished with the silver twice at the Olympics, have similar shooting percentages, points per game, rebounds, blocks, steals etc etc.

Manu is definitely the better player, but not so much that I'd say he's unquestionably a first ballot hall of famer in comparison to Kukoc who unquestionably will never get in.

For comparison's sake
http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/manu_ginobili_vs_toni_kukoc.htm

Manu currently sits at a 20% chance of making the hall of fame based upon basketball-reference's equation. There are 15 people who played in the NBA with a lower percent chance to get into the hall of fame that actually made it in (Yao is not one of them FYI, he sat at 52.59% chance of getting in). None of them made it into the Hall on the first ballot, most waited decades, and quite a few were inducted as coaches or contributors only. Pete Maravich was the only player to come close to being a first ballot hall of famer and he averaged 44 points per game in his college career and 24 during his pro career and is considered to be one of, if not the best ball handlers in basketball history and one of its most innovative players.

Manu may get in on the first ballot, but it'll have more to do with him retiring at the same time as Duncan (and maybe Parker?) and the team he played on than the product he put on the floor. That isn't to say he's not a hall of fame caliber player, but probably doesn't deserve first ballot.

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Yao Ming played as a true center with legitimate offensive ability in an era when there was and still is an absolute void of any offensive talent at that position.

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Irrelevant.

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He also brought the popularity of basketball in a country of over 1.3 billion to all new heights (it's now probably the number one ball sport in China). That's far more impactful than anything Manu accomplished in Europe or South America.

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Manu gets in as a player. Yao didn't accomplish enough as a player, so he gets in because he broadened the NBA's appeal worldwide. Though Manu did have a lot of impact in interest in the NBA in Latin America.

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You can't compare Yao as a player to Manu, you have to compare Yao to other centers of his time and throughout history. Same goes for Manu and his position and the fact of the matter is that Manu doesn't stack up well against others at his position.

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That's ridiculous. You can compare two players at different positions, in fact, you go on to do so. Kukoc was a SF. Manu was a combo guard. The Basketball Reference rating compares all players of all positions. The Hall doesn't just judge a player based on all other players at their position.

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Manu statistically and internationally speaking compares well to Toni Kukoc. Both won MVPs overseas, Kukoc finished with the silver twice at the Olympics, have similar shooting percentages, points per game, rebounds, blocks, steals etc etc.

Manu is definitely the better player, but not so much that I'd say he's unquestionably a first ballot hall of famer in comparison to Kukoc who unquestionably will never get in.

For comparison's sake
http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/manu_ginobili_vs_toni_kukoc.htm

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And Kukoc at best was the 4-5th best player on his Championship teams. Manu was the 2nd or 3rd best on three teams.

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Manu currently sits at a 20% chance of making the hall of fame based upon basketball-reference's equation. There are 15 people who played in the NBA with a lower percent chance to get into the hall of fame that actually made it in (Yao is not one of them FYI, he sat at 52.59% chance of getting in). None of them made it into the Hall on the first ballot, most waited decades, and quite a few were inducted as coaches or contributors only. Pete Maravich was the only player to come close to being a first ballot hall of famer and he averaged 44 points per game in his college career and 24 during his pro career and is considered to be one of, if not the best ball handlers in basketball history and one of its most innovative players.

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All of that is irrelevant because Basketball-Reference is only taking into account NBA accomplishments and nothing else.

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Manu may get in on the first ballot, but it'll have more to do with him retiring at the same time as Duncan (and maybe Parker?) and the team he played on than the product he put on the floor. That isn't to say he's not a hall of fame caliber player, but probably doesn't deserve first ballot.

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He definitely will get and deserves first ballot and everyone that knows how the BBHOF works agrees.

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Did a Yao Ming-led Chinese national team defeat a USA basketball team composed on NBA players? Manu's Argentian team beat the U.S. twice.

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Manu led the Argentinian team against the second worst constructed USA basketball team since before the dream team. They had Duncan and Amare as their primary centers, Allen Iverson and Stephon Marbury as their primary point guards. Year after their rookie seasons Dwyane Wade, Lebron James, and Carmelo Anthony, and then filler players.

That team went 5-3 during the tournament, including losing a game by 19 points to Puerto Rico. Don't try and frame it as if that Argentinian team was a giant killer. Team USA was not the dream team. They were the worst USA basketball team since NBA players have been allowed to participate.

You mention he did it twice, I can only conclude that you're referencing the 2002 FIBA world championship. That was a phone it in roster if I've ever seen one. Here is that roster:

Michael FINLEY
Baron DAVIS
Andre MILLER
Jermaine O'NEAL
Antonio DAVIS
Paul PIERCE
Reginald MILLER
Shawn MARION
Jason WILLIAMS
Ben WALLACE
Elton BRAND
Raef LAFRENTZ

There was zero carry over from that 2000 Olympic team to the 2002 FIBA team to the 2004 Olympic team for team USA. The only players on the 2004 USA basketball team that had any international experience with Team USA were Richard Jefferson, Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson (all from the 2003 Tournament for the Americas).

The chest pounding over Manu winning that gold medal is pretty crazy considering he had played on a similarly constructed. Argentina was made up of players that had been playing together in tournaments since the 2002 FIBA World Cup tournament.

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Kukoc comparison isn't fair.

Manu was a closer on those great spurs teams. When the game was on the line you knew he was going left and you simply couldn't stop him.

He is basically harden with more team spirit.

1st ballot hof, no doubt.

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I'll add something else: Manu could have been a 25-30 ppg player in his prime if he wanted. Instead, he sacrificed his numbers for the sake of the team. That alone is enough for him to earn the respect of any avid basketball fan/writer.

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You just argued that it doesn't matter that Manu Ginobili led the only non-us team to win Olympic gold because... that team only had Tim Duncan, Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Alan Iverson, and pre-injury Amari Stoudemire. That's a terrible argument.

He's got a one of a kind accomplishment with that medal, brought basketball to half a hemisphere, changed how NBA basketball is played with the eurostep and popularizing the sixth man scorer/closer, and won 4 NBA titles. He's in.

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Not the only non-USA team to win gold. Soviets won 2, Yugoslavia won 1, and Argentina won 1.

That team lost to Puerto Rico by 19. They went 5-3 in that Olympics, losing to Lithuania as well. Names don't make teams, they had no center on that team at all.


Over under how many points did Amare, Lebron, and Carmelo average, combined? I'll set it at 11 points. Surely the three of them averaged at least 4 points per game each, right?



Guess what? You were wrong.

Amare averaged 2.8 points during that Olympics, LeBron averaged 5.4, Carmelo averaged 2.4. Those are names you know, but at the time Lebron, Melo and Amare had zero international experience and were not utilized the way they were in 2008. Again, names.

That Argentina team also had future NBA players Luis Scola, Fabricio Oberto, Andres Nocioni and Carlos Delfino, all of whom played their entire lives before the NBA under international rules.

I'm not arguing that he won't get in, I'm saying he shouldn't get in on the first ballot. His international play doesn't make up for his NBA career, when it is compared to players who were far more impressive individually. Not by that much.

George Gervin
Reggie Miller
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
James Worthy
Pete Maravich

None of those guys made it in on the first ballot.

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Kukoc comparison isn't fair.

Manu was a closer on those great spurs teams. When the game was on the line you knew he was going left and you simply couldn't stop him.

He is basically harden with more team spirit.

1st ballot hof, no doubt.

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I'll add something else: Manu could have been a 25-30 ppg player in his prime if he wanted. Instead, he sacrificed his numbers for the sake of the team. That alone is enough for him to earn the respect of any avid basketball fan/writer.

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ahhhh the ol "ichiro could've hit 30 homers a year if he wanted to" line.

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Kukoc comparison isn't fair.

Manu was a closer on those great spurs teams. When the game was on the line you knew he was going left and you simply couldn't stop him.

He is basically harden with more team spirit.

1st ballot hof, no doubt.

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I'll add something else: Manu could have been a 25-30 ppg player in his prime if he wanted. Instead, he sacrificed his numbers for the sake of the team. That alone is enough for him to earn the respect of any avid basketball fan/writer.

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ahhhh the ol "ichiro could've hit 30 homers a year if he wanted to" line.

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Don't be mean, Manu definitely could have been a 30 ppg player on a 20 win team!

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Names don't make teams, they had no center on that team at all.

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No center? Poor team only had Duncan, Amare, and Boozer to match up against Fabricio Oberto and Rubn Wolkowyski.

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That Argentina team also had future NBA players Luis Scola, Fabricio Oberto, Andres Nocioni and Carlos Delfino

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Oh well then. Oberto once averaged 4.8 points and 5.2 rebounds a game as a starter in the NBA. He averaged 3 points/3 rebounds in ~300 nba games. But he was too much for Amare and Duncan because he played with International rules?

With those players, you have four guys that were basically journeymen in the NBA with the exception of Scola, who was a 2nd or 3rd option on some really mediocre Rockets teams. Those four players combined for 0 all-star games, 0 all-nba selections, 0 all-defense selections and a combined Basketball-Reference HOF Predictor score of 0.000.

So yeah, much rather have them than Duncan, Melo and LeBron.

Amare registered a zero for that game.

Melo average 2.4 points and a 1.6 rebounds in those Olympics, Lebron averaged 5.4 points 1.6 ast and 1 reb, Amare averaged 2.8 points and 1.8 rebounds.

Oberto averaged their production by himself, and he was the fourth most productive player on that team. Luis Scola averaged more points than any USA player and was more productive than Lebron, Amar'e, Dwayne Wade, and Carmelo combined. That Argentinian team spent three summers playing together.

So yeah, clearly international experience and team chemistry played a big roll. You keep dropping these names like they mean something, but outside of Duncan the players you name were worthless in that Olympics.