At PF I value defense, rebounding, and versatile post scoring (aka, the definition of a PF) more than fadeaway jumpers. Pau scores from anywhere inside 18 feet, controls the paint, matches up with bigs, and is a better rebounder than Dirk. Dirk is more of a tall SF, and he is behind Durant and Lebron at that spot.

With an "ultimate" team there is going to be plenty of scoring ability at every spot on the floor, which means there is no need to sell out for scoring ability alone.

Magic
MJ
Bird
Malone
Hakeem

win.

I don't care if you pick another PF for your ultimate lineup. I probably would pick a 28 year old Tim Duncan in my all time lineup.

But as far as Pau Gasol is concerned... Dirk is a much better scorer. He's as good a rebounder, and in the playoffs, he's a better rebounder. Gasol is a better defender, but that's about it. And it's not like he's that great of a defender, either. He's a good weak side help defender, but he's no prince in the post.

Dirk's putting down 25/11 in the playoffs, against quality opponents, and facing double and triple teams because of a lack of a second option. To clown on Dirk is ridiculous. He's a HOFer, pure and simple.

Stockton
MJ
Bird
Duncan
Olajuwon

I don't think I "clowned" on Dirk, he's very good at what he does. I would just prefer to have a PF at PF.

Pau is a consistent 19 and 10 guy who plays great help defense and has the length to bother anyone one-on-one. Dirk gives you 25 ppg, but he's below average on defense and isn't as good a rebounder (he is frequently matched up against SFs, and doesn't get as much attention on the boards that Pau does). If I have a great defensive team but need scoring I would take Dirk, but with guys like Rose, Lebron, Kobe, and Howard there is no lack of scoring. Dirk can be really good without being a requirement on every "ultimate" team.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 4/20/2011 9:10p).]

19 and 10 is better than 25 and 11.

Good lord butthurt Mavs fans, nobody is saying Dirk isn't good. He is a legitimate HOFer, not only because of his accomplishments in the NBA, but due to his international notoriety and what he has done to earn international prospects respect.

With that said, if I'm building an ultimate starting 5, I don't want my PF to be a big man shooting fadeaway jumpshots....I have 3 other positions on the floor to rely on to score points.

I want my PF and my C to work in tandem to protect the basket and secure rebounds. BEFORE YOU GET BUTTHURT AND BLEED ALL OVER THE THREAD, yes, Dirk can rebound. He averages so many rebounds in the playoffs, it will make your head spin [/mavs fans]. Look, the fact of the matter is, it makes much more sense to have a long, lean, athletic banger at PF than it does to have a finesse shooter at PF.

For argument's sake, using current NBA players, let's say your PG is Rose, your SG is Kobe, and your SF is James (not my choices, just for argument's sake)....

Do you really need Dirk? That is what, like 70 ppg scoring right there? Personally, I want a PF who can pick and ROLL, not pick and pop, if those 3 are on my team. Sorry, Dirk is a great player, and if you have me pick a bench and/or had me pick 1st-3rd team all NBA he would certainly be there...but I don't want him on my "ultimate starting 5".

Love the guy, but he is not worthy of the "ultimate starting 5".

You are getting a little too worked up about a thread where people are picking their ultimate team of 5.

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I don't think I "clowned" on Dirk, he's very good at what he does. I would just prefer to have a PF at PF.

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No, what you said was

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There is no way an "ultimate starting 5" should include a PF who doesn't rebound or defend... or win in the playoffs.

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Clearly, you were taking a shot either at Dirk's game, or you were trying to draw fire from the mavs fans on this board. Either way, I demonstrated to you through stats that Dirk is a better rebounder than Gasol. You conceded that Dirk is a better scorer. I conceded that Gasol is a better defender. As for the snark about "winning in the playoffs", I again demonstrated that Nowitzki's performance in the playoffs has only been replicated by 3 other players in the history of the NBA.

I think it's criminal the lack of respect that Nowitzki gets. Here's an article on it. http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/sekou_smith/04/19/dirk-nowitzki-toughest-cover-yet/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1

Says Nate McMillan,

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"Dirk is the toughest matchup in the league, because he can go inside and he can take you outside. And put the ball on the floor," McMillan said. "You put a big guy on him he can take him outside and go by him. You put a smaller guy on him and he can post him up anywhere on the floor and shoot over him. Then, as you saw [Saturday] night, he can draw fouls."

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I recognize that half the ire for Nowitzki is because of mavs fans, and because of Cuban, and because people in Texas hate Dallas (the city). Hopefully, the Mavs and the Lakers will make it to round 2, and we can see Gasol and Nowitzki head to head.

Pau is a better rebounder than Dirk. Re-read my last post for why I think that.

No question Dirk is a far better outside scorer, no question Pau is a better post scorer.

Pau is a good defender, Dirk isn't.

I understand why some people would want Dirk at PF on a dream team, but I place a lot of importance on defense and how the team fits together. Picking the 5 most talented offensive players in the league doesn't guarantee the best possible team.

[This message has been edited by MW03 (edited 4/21/2011 10:28a).]

PG: Stockton
SG: MJ
SF: Bird/James - I don't have a preference here
PF: Malone - you get the offensive prescence AND tough defense
C: Shaq - in his prime

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No question Dirk is a far better outside scorer, no question Pau is a better post scorer.

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Pau being a better scorer inside is actually up for debate. When Dirk choses to post up or go to the rack he is better at it than Pau. That really isn't up for debate. Pau used to try to play the same game Dirk does before becoming a Laker. He bacame a post player because Kobe forced him inside. He isn't that great at it.

Ulrich may be the dumbest poster on the basketball board.