quote:

---

he's always been a better passer and defender than duncan, he just played most of his career on bad teams. duncan walked into a good situation. when KG finally got the chance to play with good players he did just what duncan did

the spurs and celtics share a lot of similarities in their style of play, most notably that it's all about the team. The only difference is the C's are actually fun to watch while doing it.

---

KG is better at exactly one thing than Duncan. I'll take Duncan's advantages in scoring ability, rebounding, passing, blocking shots, position defense, help defense, mind for the game, and teamwork over KG's fadeaway jumper.


And the Spurs are quite a big more "exciting" than the Celtics, unless you really get a kick out of watching Pierce pump fake then throw himself into any nearby defender and flail his arms around like he took a battering ram to the nads. Parker and Ginobili are both more dynamic players than anyone the Celtics have.

quote:

---

Parker and Ginobili are both more dynamic players than anyone the Celtics have.

---

now that is true comedic gold

neither one of them would start for the celtics

Ginobili would be one of the best 4 players on their team. Whether he would start is based just on if you want his energy on the bench.

quote:

---

Ginobili would be one of the best 4 players on their team

---

nope

After reading the comment by the moron that said Ray Allen wasn't a HOF player before Garnett, this thread was dead to me. But, after reading Garnett/Duncan comparisons (with the caveat that Duncan is the reason I love basketball, he embodies everything I would ever want in a franchise player)....

They are entirely different players, on the court and in the locker room.

Duncan is perfect for a small market, nose to the grindstone, team oriented approach.

Garnett excels at swagger and getting under people's skins.

Both teams have inherited their personalities.

Duncan's teams are humble and team oriented.

Garnett's teams might be seen as "punks", but there is no denying that the personality that team has taken on intimidates other teams. I mean, after watching the latest Miami/Boston game, it was clear the Celtics punked the Heat and basically gave them a middle finger and a "we are more physical than you, suck it up weenies"...D Wade tried to respond with a hit to KG, but that just isn't their personality.

To me, the Celtics now and the Spurs we know and love are Yin and Yang...both incredibly close knit teams with a strong identity, they just go about it in entirely different ways, due to the respective personalities of KG and Duncan.

quote:

---

I'm sorry that's just garbage. Ray Allen just broke the record for made 3-pointers in the history of the NBA. Prior to joining the Celtics, he had 10 seasons in a row scoring 20+ points, including his last year in Seattle where he scored 26 per game. Most people agree he is the best all-around shooter in the history of the game.

---

No he didn't solidify the HOF until he started winning and making big shots in meaningful games. He had the reputation for crying to the refs about tough defense. Up to 2008 he was in the Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Michael Redd tier of overpaid empty numbers scorers. It barely made a ripple when he was traded to Boston ahead of Garnett - The Allen/Pierce/Jefferson led Celtics would have been no better than the Kidd/Carter/Jefferson Nets.

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 2/14/2011 10:30p).]

I do not understand why everybody thinks Ray Allen's legacy is so tied to KG....give me a break, I don't care what the numbers, or the reputation, or anything else says...the dude is THE greatest shooter in the history of the NBA, and his numbers back it up.

If I remember correctly, a lot of people hated Reggie Miller too...give me a break, if you don't think Ray Allen is a HOF player, you don't understand the game of basketball.

Edit: The dude carried the Bucks and the Sonics into pretty decent playoff runs..it isn't his fault his supporting casts were terrible, let alone that his starting center w/ the Sonics was JEROME JAMES, the same idiot that Knicks paid a buttload of money to, only to have him ride the pine.

[This message has been edited by SanAntonioAg09 (edited 2/14/2011 10:37p).]

In 2007 he wasn't a lock for the HOF. And Jerome James emerged as a force in the 2005 playoffs to help Ray make it all the way to the 2nd round which is partly why the Knicks threw the money at him.

Mitch Richmond is another comp to pre 2008 Allen - great scorer, bad teams, no HOF

I'm sorry, but the guy is almost in the 50/40/90 club, all while being a franchise player on the ****squad teams he was forced to play on, and he is now the all time leader in 3 pointers made, and he did it in WAY less game than Reggie...

Anybody who argues against him being in the HOF is just stupid, I'm sorry...the guy is still playing fantastic basketball, and with the way he keeps his body in shape, he shows no signs of slowing down.

The dude is almost 36, a jumpshot never leaves you. And even with that said, he still has the ability to drive the lane and get up and dunk over people. Ray Allen has been a lock for the HOF...his percentages, shooting prowess, and career longevity all speak to that.

It isn't out of the question for Ray to be a starting SG for a couple of more years, and then to be a back-up spot up shooter off the bench till the dude is 40.

Most SG see a decline in production once they hit 33 or so...the guy cares about his body, has an unsurpassed work ethic...if you watched the game when he broke the record for all time 3s, even Reggie said he'd be surprised if anybody caught him...Ray has, at a minimum and by minimum I say if he just gets tired of the sport and wants to retire (which isn't his style), 2 years left....let's say he just sucks huge dick the next 2 years and only makes 100 3s a season...he's still going to be like 200 3s ahead of Reggie...if this dude doesn't deserve HOF, I don't know what to tell you.

Edit: To say he wasn't a lock for HOF in 2007 totally discounts everything...how do you know if he hadn't of ended up on a different team his #s would be different? If anything, had he ended up anywhere other than the Celtics, his numbers might be even BETTER. It's well documented that he argued w/ Doc about sacrificing shots/touches for the greater good of the team.

I'm sorry, Ray Allen might not be flashy and he might not be one of the most athletically gifted people to ever play the game of basketball, but the dude puts up #s and he can shoot the ball like few other human beings are capable of.

[This message has been edited by SanAntonioAg09 (edited 2/14/2011 11:45p).]

quote:

---

Edit: To say he wasn't a lock for HOF in 2007 totally discounts everything...how do you know if he hadn't of ended up on a different team his #s would be different?

---

You don't know in 2007 if he's going to continue that pace at his age in 2007 and mileage in 2007 - that's why he wasn't an HOF lock in 2007. Calm down. Mitch Richmond was traded to a crappy Wizards team at age 32 and his career faded to irrelevancy. Ray Allen was traded to a Garnett team at age 31 and within a year he was an HOF lock. Garnett was the only HOF lock Celtic at the start of the 2008 season, but by the end Pierce and Allen joined him.

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 2/15/2011 12:05a).]

He was a lock in 2007, if you knew anything about the guy and his work ethic, you would know that he was going to play at the same level for a few more years, then have another 2-3 years as a role player.

Ray would've broken Reggie's record regardless of the team he was on. He is the greatest shooter in the history of the NBA...even if you don't agree with that, he's at least top 3...his numbers can't be argued, his longevity can't be argued, and his dedication to the game can't be argued.

I don't know what you're getting at, Mitch Richmond 3 pointers....1,326/3,417....Ray MFin Allen 2564/6,439...so, basically double. They are not comparable players. And this is in almost the exact same amount of seasons.

I'm sorry, you can tell me to "calm down", but to argue against Ray Allen being on a career headed for the HOF in year 2007 is just stupid.

And yes, I did know he would continue on that pace in 2007 because I know his dedication to the game. Look at Grant Hill. People said he was washed up, but the guy just loves the game. If he can come back from "career ending" injuries, then Ray can take care of his body to the point where his career could be extended.

The only problem with HOFs nowadays is you can't account for the difference in longevity in people's careers. That doesn't mean you should discount it, but people's nostalgia gets in the way.

quote:

---

No he didn't solidify the HOF until he started winning and making big shots in meaningful games.

---

Dominique Wilkins is in the hall of fame. How many meaningful games did HE play on in his career?

quote:

---

He had the reputation for crying to the refs about tough defense.

---

If there's anyone who has cried more to the refs in his career than Ray Allen, it is Tim Duncan. This doesn't really hurt your HOF chances.

quote:

---

Up to 2008 he was in the Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Michael Redd tier of overpaid empty numbers scorers.

---

Except that his offensive numbers outpace those guys, then AND now.

Allen is something like 25th all-time in scoring in the NBA (3 spots off of Garnett). His offensive numbers DROPPED significantly when he joined the Celtics, as did Pierce's and Garnett's, so had he stayed in Seattle he'd likely be higher on the list.

Saying he was not on track for the HOF before he joined the Celtics is indefensible, as far as I'm concerned. Using your criteria, you could exclude Dirk from the HOF. His numbers are almost identical to Allen, he has a reputation for disappearing at the worst time, he tends to argue with officials and he's never won a title.

[This message has been edited by MassAggie97 (edited 2/15/2011 9:29a).]

quote:

---

I'm sorry, you can tell me to "calm down", but to argue against Ray Allen being on a career headed for the HOF in year 2007 is just stupid.

---

I told you to calm down because you were flying off the handle over things I didn't say or imply.

quote:

---

Dominique Wilkins is in the hall of fame. How many meaningful games did HE play on in his career?

---

He can fall back on his awards - perennial all-NBA player and MVP candidate. So can Dirk Ray Allen pre 2008 not so much - 2 all-NBAs (less than Arenas, Mcgrady, same as Vince). His 2007 candidacy was all about longevity stats, and he had not reached what he needed in 2007.

quote:

---

If there's anyone who has cried more to the refs in his career than Ray Allen, it is Tim Duncan. This doesn't really hurt your HOF chances.

---

He also cried to the league about tough defense - ask a Spurs fan what they think about him. That hurts your rep as a player that can win tough games in the playoffs. He needed longevity stats to make the HOF and he wasn't there yet in 2007

quote:

---

He also cried to the league about tough defense - ask a Spurs fan what they think about him.

---

I am a Spurs fan. And I think Allen is a poonanny. But I also think he is the greatest shooter of all time and he was well on his way to the HOF before he got traded to the Celtics. If anything, being on a roster with KG and Pierce hurt his chances. His PPG was cut by 9 from the year previous to joining the C's.

I look at Ray Ray as being similar to Reggie Miller. Never won a title (on their own), but unquestionably two of the greatest shooters of all time. Allen has a better PPG than Miller and would have surpassed his 3-pt record as fast or faster had he remained with Seattle/OKC. The only major difference was that Reggie went to a finals without the aid of other all-stars, and Reggie played about 300 more games than Allan has so far.

quote:

---

Garnett runs away from Dice after instigating it at around 3:50 into the video. A few other examples of his 'fake tough guy' act in there as well.

---

That's nothing.

Garnett got his ass handed to him by MATT ****ING BONNER. That's right. A ginger from New Hampshire! What does Garnett do? He stands there while Bonner is pulled away, THEN CHARGES like a bad ass.

Garnett is a *****.

quote:

---

duncan is the biggest POS in the NBA and I hope his career ends tomorrow with a devastating injury.

---

FIFY


**** you diet duncan cawksucker

quote:

---

swap duncan and KG on their respective teams and the spurs still win those titles (probly at least 1 more)

---

Dumbest statement ever.

Just to be upfront.....I cant stand Kevin Garnett. He is one of my least favorite players and along with Jason Kidd I think he is one of the more overated players in the NBA over the past 10-15 years.

I will get it out of the way and give KG credit for what he is best at.

He is an very, very, very good defensive anchor, defensive player and rebounder.

But that being said he is nowhere close to Tim Duncan for the simple fact that he is not scorer that Duncan was.

Im a Mavs fan....and Duncan is the most skilled and dominant low post player the NBA has seen since Hakeem and Kevin McHale retired.

Only Shaq approaches Duncan's ability in the low post and Shaq's game in his prime was based on brute strength not so much skill.

Garnett has never been able to just take over a game and dominate it on the offensive end.

Thats why his teams never did anything in the playoffs.


Paul Peirce was the best player on the 2008 Celtics championship team.

right now I would say KG is the 3rd best player on the Celtics behind Paul Peirce and Rondo.

I love the fact that the only way KG is considered a champion is playing with three other hall of fame players.

KG's career average is 1.1 less PPG than duncan, .7 less RBPG, .7 less BPG.

he shoots 10% better from the line over his career, averages .9 more assists, .6 more steals and .2 less TOs

their nmbers across the board are pretty similar

did KG get drafted to a team with a HOF center that was still very productive? No

did KG ever get to play for an elite coach? not till he got to boston

was KG surrounded by complimentary upper level players like avery johnson, elliott, bowen, manu, parker, and jefferson throughout his career? not till he got to boston

You are DEAD WRONG kelso

If Garnett's supporting casts were so much worse than Duncan's, then shouldn't his numbers be way better by virtue of having to carry a bigger load? You can't have it both ways.

Garnett is a great player, but he's no Tim Duncan.

[This message has been edited by moorehead01 (edited 2/18/2011 12:48p).]

quote:

---

was KG surrounded by complimentary upper level players like avery johnson, elliott, bowen, manu, parker, and jefferson throughout his career? not till he got to boston

---

"That near quadruple double you had against the Lakers was amazing". -- Avery

"Hey Tim, where'd you get those pants? They're fabulous!" -- DRob

"Thanks for picking up my dry cleaning, you're a good friend." -- Manu

quote:

---

KG's career average is 1.1 less PPG than duncan, .7 less RBPG, .7 less BPG.

---

I realized that when I posted above....but the difference between Garnett and Duncan is that Duncan could take over a game anytime he wanted to and garnett has never been able to do that.

In Bill Simmons book of basketball he has a portion where he talks about Tim Duncan and says that part of Duncans greatness was that he could get you whatever it took to win.

If the Spurs were playing the Clippers he might only score 15 with 11 reboubds.

If they were playing the Mavs and they needed 40.....then Duncan could score 38 points with 18 rebounds and 7 assists.

Kevin Garnett.....has only averaged over 25 ppg in the playoffs in one season (2002-03)

Kevin Garnett has never scored more then 40 points in a playoff game......think about that for a second.

You are arguing that he is just as good as Tim Duncan....when has never had a 40 point playoff game.

quote:

---

was KG surrounded by complimentary upper level players like avery johnson, elliott, bowen, manu, parker, and jefferson throughout his career? not till he got to boston

---

Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell, Wally Scerbiack, Latrell Sprewell.....all All Stars.

lets quit the urban legend that KG didnt play with anyone at Minnesota.

Don't forget about Starbury. Garnett played with him when he was in his prime.

I think Garnett underachieved for the teammates that he had, but think he didn't ever have a great team.

quote:

---

Don't forget about Starbury. Garnett played with him when he was in his prime.

---

Garnett played with Starbury when Star was a teenager. Just his first 2.5 years in the league.

quote:

---

Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell, Wally Scerbiack, Latrell Sprewell.....all All Stars.

---

Billups: played 2 years in Minnesota, averaging 9.5 and 12 points per game. Not exactly an all-star.
Cassell: played two years in Minn. First year was his lone all-star game, and the best team Minn ever had: 2004. He averaged 20 and 8. Cassell was 34 and 35 his two years in Minnesota.
Wally: Maybe the worst player ever named an All-Star. Seriously, how did that happen? He could hit a three and pretty much nothing else.
Latreen: Played his last two seasons in Minnesota, averaged 16 points and 12 points. He was not an all-star there.

If you look at the scorers that supported Garnett year by year, you are seeing guys in their last years (Cassell, Latrell, Terrell Brandon), guys in their first years before they were good (Starbury, Billups) and guys who were never good but put up decent numbers on the ****ty team (WallyZ, Joe Smith.) A lot of guys did a lot better without Garnett around them.

never said i thought KG was definitely better **** head, just that they are very similar statistically and if KG had gotten the same opportunities as duncan, would likely have sustained equal results

I dont think Garnett would have have similar results because he never had the polished offensive game that Duncan had.

I haven't read a DAMN thing on this post . . .

but I agree, Kevin Garnett needs to go back to airport grunt work (like every other foreigner freakshow tall/dark) before he gets jacked in his mouf by a real American balla!

Seriously, he is a lanky punk who is going to get called out one of these days (or more likely when he decides to go into 'color commentator' or 'veteran correspondent' has-been staying in spotlight mode).

And one more thing, who the eff is in heaven that requires the chest pump and sky-point for the 11-million'th time from this doo - sha - bag???