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The Rockets got better defensively when Yao went down. Explain it. They went from third to first in defense WITHOUT YAO.

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This is a strawman. That jump in defense could have absolutely nothing to do with how the Rockets were playing, and everything to do with how the other teams were playing.

The top 3 are all relatively close, so a few weeks where the top 2 teams play some great offensive teams could dip their rankings substantially while the Rox hold steady or simply fall off less, or play some terrible teams, but their "overall ranking" increases...

Trying to equate 1 person going out with a rise in overall team defensive rankings is faulty.

That isn't what a strawman is.

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To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position)

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Point 1: Yao is a good defensive player (Blocks, etc)

Your Point: Yao sucks at defense cause the rockets got better ranked on defense without him.

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The Rockets got better defensively when Yao went down. Explain it. They went from third to first in defense WITHOUT YAO.

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My Point: That "ranking" is due to other factors other than 1 player.


So we claim Yao is pretty good defensively because of one reasoning. You say he's nto because of another reasoning and then demand that we prove why YOUR reasoning supports the original point.

That is nearly VERBATIM a straw man.

[This message has been edited by SuperAg05 (edited 7/30/2008 12:23p).]

That wasn't my point. Go back and reread this or the numerous other threads on the subject.

Yao is not a great defender because he cannot defend talented offensive post players one-on-one. He is not a great help defender. Yao is not quick or agile in comparison to other posts in the NBA. Yao is not strong enough to not get pushed around on the post (and his high center of gravity really works against him here.)

He is good at altering shots because he is tall and has long arms. Yao is very intelligent and understands basketball well, which helps make up for some of his short comings physically.

I have no clue why you Rockets fans cannot understand this. The rest of the NBA does and exploits it.

You are creating your own fallacies trying to accuse me of a strawman. Hilarious.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 7/30/2008 12:28p).]

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Yao is not a great defender because he cannot defend talented offensive post players one-on-one.

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I think this point is false. He is not good at defending AGILE and QUICK post players because they have greater footspeed than he has. However, against bigger post players like Shaq, Illgauskas, etc he more than holds his own. The only issues Yao has is with people who use their quickness to counteract his size. (boozer, Amare, etc)

Yao is never going to be the most athletic or agile post defender. But his size alone makes players work harder to get their points, and makes driving guards adjust their shot trajectory.

Again, Yao is not good at defnding players who are literally BUILT to counteract his size. But against even opponents (REAL C's like SHaq, Illgauskas, Howard - to some extent,Kaman, etc) he more than holds his own.

Except for Battier, Rockets really don't have any other great individual defenders. Rockets play great team defense; they focused mainly in protecting the paint and if a team shoots mostly perimeter shots, shooting percentage will suffer. Yao doesn't necessarily have to be a great defender in order for the defensive scheme to work. All he needs to do is clog the paint to either alter the shot or block it.

Kenny George, 7'7" center for UNC-Asheville, averaged 3.3 BPG last year. Nobody ever said he's a good defender.

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I think this point is false. He is not good at defending AGILE and QUICK post players because they have greater footspeed than he has.

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Then we have to agree to disagree. Plenty of good defenders do alright against players that are more agile or quick than them. Duncan does it all the time. But Duncan is a great defender.

A quick look shows that Shaq averaged 22 and 13 against Houston this year. I didnt both to look at what games he played to see if Yao was there. Last year Shaq had 18 and 13 - both over his season averages. The year before Shaq had 24 and 14 against Houston.

But if you are going to say Yao only has problems with players more agile or quick than him, who does that leave that Yao can D up against? Not a hell of a lot. The league is getting quicker and is being dominated by wing players like never before. So again, this goes to my point that Yao cannot guard people one on one. Or maybe he can, but only twice a year when Houston plays Cleveland with an old decrepit Z.

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But his size alone makes players work harder to get their points, and makes driving guards adjust their shot trajectory.

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I've never said otherwise. Being abnormally tall makes people adjust their shots in the lane. But that doesnt make you a great defender.

Yao and Kaman played each other once last year. Kaman: 22 and 14. Yao 14 and 8.

the rockets got better on defense after yao went down because they were playing horrible teams. at least, that's what was pointed out daily during the winning streak.

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Yao and Kaman played each other once last year. Kaman: 22 and 14. Yao 14 and 8.

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You know better than to use something with a sample size of 1.

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the rockets got better on defense after yao went down because they were playing horrible teams. at least, that's what was pointed out daily during the winning streak.

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I was in India and missed most of the streak. A streak that long is impressive no matter who you play.

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You know better than to use something with a sample size of 1.

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Yep, should be interesting to see them this year. Just thought that it should be said that there is no real basis for thinking Yao can D up on Kaman.

Oh, and I am leaving for a photoshoot in the med center, so adios mofos.

it doesnt take long for you all to turn this into a ghey thread...



I, for one am happy with this trade.

I think Artest will play "nice" under Adelman


-It's a Jungle out there kiddies, have a very fruitful day-

Alston/Brooks/Head
TMac/Barry/Francis
Artest/Battier/Novak
Scola/Landry?/Dorsey
Yao/Deke?/Hayes

I'll take that any day of the week. Nice depth. Plenty of scoring (3 20+ Pt scorers). 2 of the best perimiter defenders in the league.

Might have issues if Landry doesn't re-sign or Deke finally calls it quits. I would really like another solid back-up PF/C option (Preferably someone in the 6'10" range).

Back-Up PF/C options that could be had for relatively cheap:

Francisco Elson
Jamaal Magloire
Robert Horry


Pretty slim pickins.

Perhaps a trade for someone like McDyess would work, but I don't see anything Houston wuold be willing to give up for him (S&T Landry + Novak?)

Look, I watch almost every Rockets game. Losing Yao absolutely made our defense go from upper echelon to best in the NBA. In today's NBA, Yao's traditional center style is not equipped to defend the above average post players in this league. He is not a defensive LIABILITY, which I HAVE argued with guitarsoup before about. However, he is not a GREAT defender.

Stats are misleading when it comes to defense. The Spurs will never lead the league in steals or even blocks. A lot of steals means that you're probably roaming the lanes and leaving yoru defensive assignment. A lot of blocks means that you're leaving yoru feet and making yoruself exposed to more fouls. The most important stat for measurign a team's defense is simply points allowed per 100 possessions. The only way to measure an individuals defensive performance is to be qualitative.

Positives: Yao is huge and intimidating in the middle. He's smart and disciplined about blocking out and not leaving his feet/staying in good position. Most centers in the NBA these days are not scoring threats anyways.

Negatives: Yao is slow. Yao has no defensive abilities 7 feet outside the basket and many people he's asked to guard want to pull him out there. Yao is a foul lightning rod. Yao has underrated strength, but below average "toughness" still.

Current 12 man:
Guards: Alston/Francis/Head/Brooks
Guard/Forward: Tmac/Artest/Battier/Barry/Novak
Forward/Center: Yao/Scola/Landry
Currently on the outside looking in: Chuck Hayes, Joey Dorsey, Deke, Mike Harris

[This message has been edited by HotardAg07 (edited 7/30/2008 2:34p).]

I don't see any way that Novak will be on the active roster. I would replace him with Hayes.

I also think Head will be shown the door as well

I have heard rumors of Novak to Philly for a TPE and a 2nd round pick. That could help clear an active spot. Hayes will definitely be onthe team.

I also don't see a way for the team to get by without Deke or Dorsey, so I expect another player to be shown the door to make room for one of those guys.

I have to agree with Novak out, Hayes in for more depth at the 4/5 and a defensive specialist.

Current 12 man:
Guards: Alston/Francis/Head/Brooks
Guard/Forward: Tmac/Artest/Battier/Barry
Forward/Center: Yao/Scola/Landry/Hayes
Currently on the outside looking in: Steve Novak, Joey Dorsey, Deke, Mike Harris

[This message has been edited by HotardAg07 (edited 7/30/2008 2:52p).]

Also, Landry is not signed yet, so, for now, you can slot Dorsey into his spot.

If Landry actually signs, then there is something to deal with....

I was actually thinking Deke instead of Dorsey if we sign him. We need another shot-blotcking presence at center on the bench and I think Dorsey will spend the first half of the year in development league probably.

I think Francis is done.

I don't see a whole lotta bad in this deal. Short of him injuring or maiming other Rox players, he's costing you nothing this year AND you gave up bird seed and two coffee mugs to get him! Reminds me a lot of the TO deal with the Cowboys or the Moss deal with New England. Both of those guys had bad histories and both have been Miss Congeniality with their current franchises.

I wonder who the Rockets will sign with their MLE? I wouldn't think that they would throw it all at Landry...

I imagine they won't spend the MLE unless it's on Landry. They are still aiming for 2010 cap space, so I doubt any decent player would sign a 2 year deal for less than the MLE.

So when are the Rockets going to trade Alston and Battier for Iverson?

They probably only have 2010 capspace if they let McGrady walk.

Alston will need to be resigned. Unless he drops off this year and next, I cant see them letting him walk. He really turned up his game last year.

Scola will need to be resigned. He will probably want a raise over the 3mm he will get next year.

Team option on Hayes for 2mm and change.

I am sure they will take the taeem option on Brooks for 2mm.

That stuff adds up quick.

Yao+battier = 25mm
Scola =~5mm (being conservative)
Hayes 2mm
Brooks 2mm
Now we are at 30mm.
Add in whatever you want to pay Rafer.
Keep McGrady or let him walk?
Keep Artest?

If you let Artest, McGrady and Rafer walk, you have enough for a max player and a mid-level player.

Yao/Battier/Scola/Hayes/Brooks/max/mid/6 minimum level players

I dont think Houston is going to have a ton of cap space.

Great, great trade for houston

Considering that picks in the 20's can be picked up for cash any year, we picked up Artest for 2 picks in the 20's(which can always be reacquired) and a backup pg

To me there's little downside even if Artest goes crazy



My guess is that in 2010 the Rockets are hoping to either A) Re Sign Artest and TMac if this group makes a title run or B) Hope Wade or one of the other big 2010 FA sign with them and the TMac takes a midlevel to come back and make a run at a title

Hell yeah. I like it.

I was flipping channels last night and heard the best damn sports show's john salley predict the rockets win the championship. Gary Payton stopped short of that but said we would be in the western conference finals. I know, they are just talking heads, but this trade is BIG. The Rockets just took this whole thing and sent out an amber alert saying "TAKE ME TO DEF-CON TWO."

[This message has been edited by DeanTravers (edited 7/31/2008 3:01p).]

Just admit you watch Best Damn Sports Show. It's ok.

turn on ESPN now, artest interviewing on PTI

artest: "i cant wait to be a rocket i dont care if i have to come off the bench"