Gunny456 said:

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I worked the chains during 3 years while attending TAM at a district of 5A high schools. All what you say is true. I worked the box. I watched how the chain guys could give or take 3-4" without anybody paying attention. I had to go to a class and was actually considered as an " official" . Due to that I got to go and sit in with them at halftime and was witness to their conversations about the game, certain players, mistakes and wrong calls they had made.
Etc. Etc. It really opened my eyes as to what they decide and how they make calls. I never looked at it the same again.

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Same with HS soccer. We talk about stuff at half or even before the game if one of us has worked a team previously. What we missed, what a player is doing and about to get a card, what the coaches are saying to the AR on there side, etc.

To be a club referee I had to go to a 2 day class which included classroom and outside work. Started at lower level small fields and couldn't move up an instructor came and watched and evaluated me. If I wanted to move beyond beginner, had to center so many games, and pay for an evaluation. It was pass/fail.

I'm a mentor/instructor now and had to go to a class for that as well.

To referee HS all I had to do was register, pay $60, attend a 90m rule's meeting (that was all but useless) and pass an open book online exam that we were given the questions weeks before the test. That's it. Same thing each fall, pay, attend rules meeting and take exam. At least the assignor I deal with try's to get decent refs assigned to the higher level teams.

Aggie Dad Sip said:

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The problem here is that nobody cares where the ball is spotted on 2nd & 9 in the 1st Qtr when the guy is short six or seven yards. But on 3rd & 1 from the 10 when you're rooting for Houston to beat Texas and the spot is a yard off - which it undeniably was - you scream that tu has the refs in their pocket.

Does it matter that they called more penalties on Texas than Houston? Does it matter that obvious non-calls cost Texas 17 points? Of course not. Because you wanted the sips to lose. But put yourself in Texas' shoes. If A&M gets screwed out of 17 points vs Miss State, but the Ags end up winning on a horrible call against MSU with a minute left, are you gonna scream from the rafters about how bad the refs are?

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My point was on the more obvious situations like the terribly bad spot, it can be fixed with technology.

bqce said:

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rootube said:

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Because it's not a precise game. Look how the refs spot the ball. None of football very precise and honestly it's perfectly fine until your team comes up short.

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It's not a precise game until they bring the chains out. If it's a millimeter short, it's not a first down. No spots in the game have that tolerance until a measurement is made. How do we know the clip on the yard line is exactly on the back of the yard line? Even then, if they don't have the chains exactly perpendicular to the yard line, the distance won't be exactly 10 yards.

It's definitely something that should change.

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When was the last time you saw the chain crew run out on the field to measure?

nu awlins ag said:

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agracer said:

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rootube said:

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Once they solve down and distance they can solve holding, targeting, and the many other imprecise calls in football. I just wouldn't hold my breath.

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The subjective calls are always a concern, but it's subjective.

I referee soccer and almost the entire rule book is subjective. I don't get as bent out of shape on those, esp. holding. Sometimes holding looks bad on TV, but the replay from the field level it's obvious it's not.

But stuff like down and distanced are not, AT ALL. It's spot ball here where forward progress stops, 1st down is 10-yards from spot of ball after crossing line to gain. It's clearly spelled out and some of the ball spotting is just reduclous.

At least put a guy in the booth and allow them to call down this stuff. Or give the coach more allowable challenges. I mean HTF is where the ball is spotted, especially in the tu v UH situation not allowed?

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Holding is easy to call. Once your grab the shoulders, that holding my friend. Keep your hands inside and its not. I see way too much holding where the o-line is literally grabbing a hand full of jersey on the outside shoulders and turning a player. That is text book holding. I ref jr.high and will do freshmen next season after my son moves up. I won't call it if the play is on the other side unless a kid tackles his defender then I'll call it. I normally will give a kid a warning first then call it. I try to educate them first at this age.

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I've always thought the offensive linemen should wear the equivalent of oven mittens or something where they literally can't grab. That way short of bear hugging someone they just can't hold.

The last time was Saturday at the UH/tu game. I admit that chains coming onto the field has been cut WAY back.

agracer said:

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Aggie Dad Sip said:

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The problem here is that nobody cares where the ball is spotted on 2nd & 9 in the 1st Qtr when the guy is short six or seven yards. But on 3rd & 1 from the 10 when you're rooting for Houston to beat Texas and the spot is a yard off - which it undeniably was - you scream that tu has the refs in their pocket.

Does it matter that they called more penalties on Texas than Houston? Does it matter that obvious non-calls cost Texas 17 points? Of course not. Because you wanted the sips to lose. But put yourself in Texas' shoes. If A&M gets screwed out of 17 points vs Miss State, but the Ags end up winning on a horrible call against MSU with a minute left, are you gonna scream from the rafters about how bad the refs are?

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My point was on the more obvious situations like the terribly bad spot, it can be fixed with technology.

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Great. But does that mean that all the other penalties that definitely affect the outcome of the game but don't happen at the right time don't matter?

I hear this all the time: "Holding doesn't count because you could call holding on every play." Cool. So if the ball spot is off a half yard, why not ignore that too?

Why don't they have a camera directly on the goal line? It's always at an angle as to be subjective (influenced). Don't underestimate the power of Vegas.

bqce said:

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The last time was Saturday at the UH/tu game. I admit that chains coming onto the field has been cut WAY back.

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So my point is that the game is imprecise and the people in charge have made moves to make even less precise by almost never measuring. The one time they measure they apparently got it wrong. The fact that this was a throwaway game halfway through the season and nobody else is complaining doesn't make me think CFB is going to invest heavily in technology to solve a problem they don't think exists.

agracer said:

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In light of the tu v UH game where an obvious 1st down was marked WAY off putting the Coogs' in a 4th and 1 situation, why the hell is football still using a CHAIN and some old slow guy's eyes to decide where the ball stops forward progress and to spot it?

Have you ever worked a chain gang, or even watched them. This is not remotely close to an exact science we're talking about.

From Wikipedia

Quote:

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At the start of a series of downs, the linesman stands so that the heel of one foot marks the initial line of scrimmage. The box man places his indicator to mark this position and sets the box to display "1". The operator of the rear rod marks the same position, while the other rod man moves ten yards toward the defense's goal line to mark the line to gain.

The linesman, the box man, or a fourth member of the chain crew attaches a "clip" to the chain to line up with the rear edge of the closest five-yard line to the rear rod.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_crew#cite_note-Schultz-3][2][/url] A device on the clip indicates which numbered line this is. The clip and the device let the chain crew restore the position of the rods after a mishap. In leagues such as the NFL with Instant Replay, there may be multiple clips to let the rods be repositioned after a play is reviewed and reversed.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_crew#cite_note-Schultz-3][2][/url]

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Almost everything in that paragraph is completely subjective.

How is it, with 4K tv, GPS, lasers (and sharks with lasers) and every other accurate measurement tool know to man is any football above the HS level still using a chain to measure 1st downs and spot the ball? Put a chip in the front and back of the ball and have Top Golf do it (they can even have sponsor messages on the old chain crew shirts).

I can go to the golf course driving range, hit a golf ball and a device the size of my phone can tell me the impact speed of my club, path of club, ball spin, distance ball traveled I the air, distance rolled, launch angle, decent angle and way more information that your average 20 handicapper can comprehend. All for about $500.

How is it this type of technology NOT be applied to a billion dollar industry? I mean, what's the hold up with fixing this?

Obviously, you keep the chains b/c the players need to know where the 1st down is at times. But why it is it still used?

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Uhh because you'd have to have a chip/sensor on every player's knees, elbows, etc., otherwise you're still spotting with eyeballs in real time.

more than technology, we need a REAL and TRANSPARENT oversight board that would have immediate (within the week) reviews of the field and replay officials w authority to suspend without pay and permanently ban ifficials for egregious unexplainable errors.

The hearings should be public. Dont want that scrutiny? dont be an official.

Divining Rod said:

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more than technology, we need a REAL and TRANSPARENT oversight board that would have immediate (within the week) reviews of the field and replay officials w authority to suspend without pay and permanently ban ifficials for egregious unexplainable errors.

The hearings should be public. Dont want that scrutiny? dont be an official.

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biggest problem with cheating refs is lack of accountability.

Chains were close to the exact right spot in the measurement. They spotted the ball just short of the yard line and the chain was at the yard line.

GigEmReggie said:

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agracer said:

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In light of the tu v UH game where an obvious 1st down was marked WAY off putting the Coogs' in a 4th and 1 situation, why the hell is football still using a CHAIN and some old slow guy's eyes to decide where the ball stops forward progress and to spot it?

Have you ever worked a chain gang, or even watched them. This is not remotely close to an exact science we're talking about.

From Wikipedia

Quote:

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At the start of a series of downs, the linesman stands so that the heel of one foot marks the initial line of scrimmage. The box man places his indicator to mark this position and sets the box to display "1". The operator of the rear rod marks the same position, while the other rod man moves ten yards toward the defense's goal line to mark the line to gain.

The linesman, the box man, or a fourth member of the chain crew attaches a "clip" to the chain to line up with the rear edge of the closest five-yard line to the rear rod.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_crew#cite_note-Schultz-3][2][/url] A device on the clip indicates which numbered line this is. The clip and the device let the chain crew restore the position of the rods after a mishap. In leagues such as the NFL with Instant Replay, there may be multiple clips to let the rods be repositioned after a play is reviewed and reversed.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_crew#cite_note-Schultz-3][2][/url]

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Almost everything in that paragraph is completely subjective.

How is it, with 4K tv, GPS, lasers (and sharks with lasers) and every other accurate measurement tool know to man is any football above the HS level still using a chain to measure 1st downs and spot the ball? Put a chip in the front and back of the ball and have Top Golf do it (they can even have sponsor messages on the old chain crew shirts).

I can go to the golf course driving range, hit a golf ball and a device the size of my phone can tell me the impact speed of my club, path of club, ball spin, distance ball traveled I the air, distance rolled, launch angle, decent angle and way more information that your average 20 handicapper can comprehend. All for about $500.

How is it this type of technology NOT be applied to a billion dollar industry? I mean, what's the hold up with fixing this?

Obviously, you keep the chains b/c the players need to know where the 1st down is at times. But why it is it still used?

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Uhh because you'd have to have a chip/sensor on every player's knees, elbows, etc., otherwise you're still spotting with eyeballs in real time.

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An idea is to give the Refs a clicker they can click anytime they call a play dead or blow their whistle. That clicker communicates to the software that tracks the ball.

TexasAggie81 said:

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warrington said:

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a sensor place on each end of the and a couple on each side. Then remote monitor the exact placement of the ball. Could give percise information of how many yards, speed, etc

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It's not where the ball is. It's where the ball carrier is when he is declared down.

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That's how it USED to be. Now it is where the ball is when the player is down.

But if we implemented all of this, how would tu, Notre Dame, Ohio St., etc. be able to game the system?

I mean, I know Bama and Auburn will get away with offensive holding, and Georgia DBs can maul WRs with no penalty, but what about those other 3?

Slicer97 said:

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But if we implemented all of this, how would tu, Notre Dame, Ohio St., etc. be able to game the system?

I mean, I know Bama and Auburn will get away with offensive holding, and Georgia DBs can maul WRs with no penalty, but what about those other 3?

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If tu, OSU and Notre Dame have the system rigged in their favor they aren't very good at taking advantage of it.

At the VERY LEAST, the spot should have been reviewed at that point in the game.

rootube said:

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Slicer97 said:

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But if we implemented all of this, how would tu, Notre Dame, Ohio St., etc. be able to game the system?

I mean, I know Bama and Auburn will get away with offensive holding, and Georgia DBs can maul WRs with no penalty, but what about those other 3?

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If tu, OSU and Notre Dame have the system rigged in their favor they aren't very good at taking advantage of it.

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Imagine how many more games they would lose if they didn't have the beneficial calls.

Flashdiaz said:

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tu will find a way to pay lasers to cheat.

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Pfft. We already tried that with the "Laser Out Kyle Field" plan vs. Tech a while back.

Right there with you! Been saying it for a couple of years, why don't they have sensors in the ball to track and measure. Seems like a no brainer And as you said, a billion dollar industry using totally antiquated technology. I believe they want the refs to be able to take the blame for calls in games that benefit the big brand teams. Wouldn't it be something to have non subjective decisions. Makes you wonder what each team's real record would be if there were no bad spots and the underdogs were able to win games usually given to the blue bloods

Aggie Dad Sip said:

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agracer said:

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Aggie Dad Sip said:

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The problem here is that nobody cares where the ball is spotted on 2nd & 9 in the 1st Qtr when the guy is short six or seven yards. But on 3rd & 1 from the 10 when you're rooting for Houston to beat Texas and the spot is a yard off - which it undeniably was - you scream that tu has the refs in their pocket.

Does it matter that they called more penalties on Texas than Houston? Does it matter that obvious non-calls cost Texas 17 points? Of course not. Because you wanted the sips to lose. But put yourself in Texas' shoes. If A&M gets screwed out of 17 points vs Miss State, but the Ags end up winning on a horrible call against MSU with a minute left, are you gonna scream from the rafters about how bad the refs are?

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My point was on the more obvious situations like the terribly bad spot, it can be fixed with technology.

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Great. But does that mean that all the other penalties that definitely affect the outcome of the game but don't happen at the right time don't matter?

I hear this all the time: "Holding doesn't count because you could call holding on every play." Cool. So if the ball spot is off a half yard, why not ignore that too?

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Holding is subjective to interpretation by the official.

Where the ball is located when forward progress stops and the play is blown dead is not.

Just like when Smith stepped out of bounds against Bama. No on on the field saw it and they called a TD. But on replay review, it was spotted at the 2yr line because he CLEARLY SLID HIS FOOT ACROSS THE SIDELINE.

The runner clearly made it past the line to gain, was stopped and the play whistled dead. Yet was spotted 2-yards behind where forward progress was stopped.

GigEmReggie said:

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agracer said:

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In light of the tu v UH game where an obvious 1st down was marked WAY off putting the Coogs' in a 4th and 1 situation, why the hell is football still using a CHAIN and some old slow guy's eyes to decide where the ball stops forward progress and to spot it?

Have you ever worked a chain gang, or even watched them. This is not remotely close to an exact science we're talking about.

From Wikipedia

Quote:

---

At the start of a series of downs, the linesman stands so that the heel of one foot marks the initial line of scrimmage. The box man places his indicator to mark this position and sets the box to display "1". The operator of the rear rod marks the same position, while the other rod man moves ten yards toward the defense's goal line to mark the line to gain.

The linesman, the box man, or a fourth member of the chain crew attaches a "clip" to the chain to line up with the rear edge of the closest five-yard line to the rear rod.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_crew#cite_note-Schultz-3][2][/url] A device on the clip indicates which numbered line this is. The clip and the device let the chain crew restore the position of the rods after a mishap. In leagues such as the NFL with Instant Replay, there may be multiple clips to let the rods be repositioned after a play is reviewed and reversed.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_crew#cite_note-Schultz-3][2][/url]

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Almost everything in that paragraph is completely subjective.

How is it, with 4K tv, GPS, lasers (and sharks with lasers) and every other accurate measurement tool know to man is any football above the HS level still using a chain to measure 1st downs and spot the ball? Put a chip in the front and back of the ball and have Top Golf do it (they can even have sponsor messages on the old chain crew shirts).

I can go to the golf course driving range, hit a golf ball and a device the size of my phone can tell me the impact speed of my club, path of club, ball spin, distance ball traveled I the air, distance rolled, launch angle, decent angle and way more information that your average 20 handicapper can comprehend. All for about $500.

How is it this type of technology NOT be applied to a billion dollar industry? I mean, what's the hold up with fixing this?

Obviously, you keep the chains b/c the players need to know where the 1st down is at times. But why it is it still used?

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Uhh because you'd have to have a chip/sensor on every player's knees, elbows, etc., otherwise you're still spotting with eyeballs in real time.

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Huh? Why would i need that? I only care where ball is located relative to the line to gain or the endzone. A player can have his entire body inside the end zone except an outreached arm/hand holding the ball 1-foot still on the field of play and the ball is down at that 1-foot line.

My understanding is that they experimented with using macaroni noodles years ago and the varying lengths of the noodles and the time it took to carefully place them end to end caused a quick end to the experiment. Back to the chains.

bqce said:

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Agree - and that's the argument. All the other spots are eye-balled to within the nearest 6"; then the chain comes out and it's to the nearest mm. It's a stupid system

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Or as we engineers say:

measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a piece of chalk, and cut it with a chain saw !