In light of the tu v UH game where an obvious 1st down was marked WAY off putting the Coogs' in a 4th and 1 situation, why the hell is football still using a CHAIN and some old slow guy's eyes to decide where the ball stops forward progress and to spot it?

Have you ever worked a chain gang, or even watched them. This is not remotely close to an exact science we're talking about.

From Wikipedia

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At the start of a series of downs, the linesman stands so that the heel of one foot marks the initial line of scrimmage. The box man places his indicator to mark this position and sets the box to display "1". The operator of the rear rod marks the same position, while the other rod man moves ten yards toward the defense's goal line to mark the line to gain.

The linesman, the box man, or a fourth member of the chain crew attaches a "clip" to the chain to line up with the rear edge of the closest five-yard line to the rear rod.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_crew#cite_note-Schultz-3][2][/url] A device on the clip indicates which numbered line this is. The clip and the device let the chain crew restore the position of the rods after a mishap. In leagues such as the NFL with Instant Replay, there may be multiple clips to let the rods be repositioned after a play is reviewed and reversed.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_crew#cite_note-Schultz-3][2][/url]

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Almost everything in that paragraph is completely subjective.

How is it, with 4K tv, GPS, lasers (and sharks with lasers) and every other accurate measurement tool know to man is any football above the HS level still using a chain to measure 1st downs and spot the ball? Put a chip in the front and back of the ball and have Top Golf do it (they can even have sponsor messages on the old chain crew shirts).

I can go to the golf course driving range, hit a golf ball and a device the size of my phone can tell me the impact speed of my club, path of club, ball spin, distance ball traveled I the air, distance rolled, launch angle, decent angle and way more information that your average 20 handicapper can comprehend. All for about $500.

How is it this type of technology NOT be applied to a billion dollar industry? I mean, what's the hold up with fixing this?

Obviously, you keep the chains b/c the players need to know where the 1st down is at times. But why it is it still used?

Because it's not a precise game. Look how the refs spot the ball. None of football very precise and honestly it's perfectly fine until your team comes up short.

I totally agree. It's the same question in baseball about why we aren't using digital strike zones.

There is so much money on the line in all of these games, it is absurd we can't have a digital marker of where the first down line/goal line is, and digital confirmation of whether part of the ball crosses it or not. Obviously there could still be some wiggle room on things like whether the runner is forced backwards after crossing or goes back voluntarily, but there needs to be a technological solution to this problem.

I am convinced that the traditional powers in college football oppose any prospect of moving away from using human officials because it would eliminate part of their built in advantage against less prestigious programs: favorable officiating.

What happened in the sip-UH game is straight criminal. That should never happen.

Keep the sticks because as mentioned, players need that to see where the first down is at. Back in the day, the ball was placed where your knee went down, now it is where the ball is WHEN your knee/elbow are down. They have digital down markers now so having something on the sidelines to mark precise ball placement should not be that difficult.

tu will find a way to pay lasers to cheat.


but really, how will a sensor or laser when a player is down in order to spot the ball?

Well, at least part of it is the subjective call of when forward progress stops and when a runner is down.

a sensor place on each end of the and a couple on each side. Then remote monitor the exact placement of the ball. Could give percise information of how many yards, speed, etc

I've thought the future of football would be a chip in the football that could indicate the furthest spot it achieved on any given play. You could even have a moving device - like the current aerial cameras - that would then beam a light on the spot the ball should be set.

rootube said:

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Because it's not a precise game. Look how the refs spot the ball. None of football very precise and honestly it's perfectly fine until your team comes up short.

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Well that's my point.

And UH came up WAY short. Guy was a yard past and they marked him a yard short.

Either use a digital system or give the freaking replay officials power to call down that stuff. Or the coach a red flag or something. That whole sequence was such a screw job.

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What happened in the sip-UH game is straight criminal. That should never happen.

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But it does over and over. The only way to rid this is to have officials from other conferences call games.

Once they solve down and distance they can solve holding, targeting, and the many other imprecise calls in football. I just wouldn't hold my breath.

rootube said:

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Once they solve down and distance they can solve holding, targeting, and the many other imprecise calls in football. I just wouldn't hold my breath.

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The subjective calls are always a concern, but it's subjective.

I referee soccer and almost the entire rule book is subjective. I don't get as bent out of shape on those, esp. holding. Sometimes holding looks bad on TV, but the replay from the field level it's obvious it's not.

But stuff like down and distanced are not, AT ALL. It's spot ball here where forward progress stops, 1st down is 10-yards from spot of ball after crossing line to gain. It's clearly spelled out and some of the ball spotting is just reduclous.

At least put a guy in the booth and allow them to call down this stuff. Or give the coach more allowable challenges. I mean HTF is where the ball is spotted, especially in the tu v UH situation not allowed?

(12) Why Do NFL Chain Gang's Still Exist in the Age of Technology? - YouTube

Here is a YouTube video that asks same questions. Interesting video.

nu awlins ag said:

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What happened in the sip-UH game is straight criminal. That should never happen.

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But it does over and over. The only way to rid this is to have officials from other conferences call games.

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Watch a replay of those last few possessions. The previous play was spotted bad also.

agracer said:

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rootube said:

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Once they solve down and distance they can solve holding, targeting, and the many other imprecise calls in football. I just wouldn't hold my breath.

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The subjective calls are always a concern, but it's subjective.

I referee soccer and almost the entire rule book is subjective. I don't get as bent out of shape on those, esp. holding. Sometimes holding looks bad on TV, but the replay from the field level it's obvious it's not.

But stuff like down and distanced are not, AT ALL. It's spot ball here where forward progress stops, 1st down is 10-yards from spot of ball after crossing line to gain. It's clearly spelled out and some of the ball spotting is just reduclous.

At least put a guy in the booth and allow them to call down this stuff. Or give the coach more allowable challenges. I mean HTF is where the ball is spotted, especially in the tu v UH situation not allowed?

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Holding is easy to call. Once your grab the shoulders, that holding my friend. Keep your hands inside and its not. I see way too much holding where the o-line is literally grabbing a hand full of jersey on the outside shoulders and turning a player. That is text book holding. I ref jr.high and will do freshmen next season after my son moves up. I won't call it if the play is on the other side unless a kid tackles his defender then I'll call it. I normally will give a kid a warning first then call it. I try to educate them first at this age.

I agree, there were some horrible no calls. Once the game tightened, the officials stepped in.

The problem with the call in the UH vs tu game was that the official marked the ball almost a full yard, or at least a half yard behind the runner's forward progress.

aggiebrad94 said:

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I've thought the future of football would be a chip in the football that could indicate the furthest spot it achieved on any given play. You could even have a moving device - like the current aerial cameras - that would then beam a light on the spot the ball should be set.

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Make the field a giant LED display. The "grass" could be clear synthetic blades that carry the light. Then you could illuminate yard lines, 1st down markers, etc from underneath. Change from college to pro markings, or from football to soccer to lacrosse.

TV revenue opportunity (quick Advertisements) and building drama into the game.


It's a left over from the age of football before instant review.


The technical solution is available via wifi and chips in the balls but it takes away from the refs being a part of the game.

We could have penalties called from the booth via cameras/video replay if everyone really wanted but it would make the game less than what it is today.

Got to keep a little of the organic human roots to make it fun and entertaining.

The problem is not the chain gang. Officials in the NFL and the NCAA mark the ball on the yard line, so the back marker is on a yard line and the front marker is 10 yards past. The problem is the Houston/Texas games was the spot. I still do not understand why that call was not booth reviewed. All calls in college are subject to booth review, so this one should have been reviewed. Unlike the Penn State/Ohio State game, FOX did not have their top technical crew in Houston. But from the press box camera, it appears that the carrier was a good one yard past the line I know that spotting the ball is difficult, but this one looked fishy.

They already have the chip in the ball tech used in soccer to confirm the full ball crossed the line for a goal.

Not sure why this same tech cannot be adapted for American football. Seems it could be used for scores and first downs quite easily.

rootube said:

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Because it's not a precise game. Look how the refs spot the ball. None of football very precise and honestly it's perfectly fine until your team comes up short.

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It's not a precise game until they bring the chains out. If it's a millimeter short, it's not a first down. No spots in the game have that tolerance until a measurement is made. How do we know the clip on the yard line is exactly on the back of the yard line? Even then, if they don't have the chains exactly perpendicular to the yard line, the distance won't be exactly 10 yards.

It's definitely something that should change.

The chain is more precise than the arbitrary ball placement especially from angles.

I think they should use a bungee cord to make it more interesting in big match ups.

It's the damn umpire and referee unions!!!

Agree - and that's the argument. All the other spots are eye-balled to within the nearest 6"; then the chain comes out and it's to the nearest mm. It's a stupid system

A chip in the ball wouldn't allow refs to cheat.

I am curious how you would change it ?

I get technology would help and could work but still judgment of officials are where it is placed and if you use sensors or something in a ball how do you deal with that? Where the ball is when the audio whistle blows? That doesnt give a great indicator of foreward progress. If you use how far the ball went what happens when the stretch is made after the whistle ?

Sponge said:

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A chip in the ball wouldn't allow refs to cheat.

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how so?

I worked the chains during 3 years while attending TAM at a district of 5A high schools. All what you say is true. I worked the box. I watched how the chain guys could give or take 3-4" without anybody paying attention. I had to go to a class and was actually considered as an " official" . Due to that I got to go and sit in with them at halftime and was witness to their conversations about the game, certain players, mistakes and wrong calls they had made.
Etc. Etc. It really opened my eyes as to what they decide and how they make calls. I never looked at it the same again.

rootube said:

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Because it's not a precise game. Look how the refs spot the ball. None of football very precise and honestly it's perfectly fine until your team comes up short.

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Maybe a chip should be placed inside the end of each football. But it still depends on where the ball carrier lands. The "mark" in the UH/tu game could not be substantiated … unless the whorns owned them. Then, …

warrington said:

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a sensor place on each end of the and a couple on each side. Then remote monitor the exact placement of the ball. Could give percise information of how many yards, speed, etc

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It's not where the ball is. It's where the ball carrier is when he is declared down.

TexasAggie81 said:

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warrington said:

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a sensor place on each end of the and a couple on each side. Then remote monitor the exact placement of the ball. Could give percise information of how many yards, speed, etc

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It's not where the ball is. It's where the ball carrier is when he is declared down.

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Solvable: the use of digital time-stamps that could be coordinated with the tracking system, instant replay, and a sensor that can track whenever a whistle is blown (and by whom). It's beyond me why time-stamp isn't already used on instant replay; having all replay angles synched by time would help determine ball position when the knee/elbow goes down on one angle but the ball position is not clear, yet clear on another angle.

Within a generation, we will see sensors everywhere that can determine when a player is down, exact ball position, out-of-bounds, the whole nine (ten) yards.

TexasAggie81 said:

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warrington said:

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a sensor place on each end of the and a couple on each side. Then remote monitor the exact placement of the ball. Could give percise information of how many yards, speed, etc

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It's not where the ball is. It's where the ball carrier is when he is declared down.

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Absolutely wrong. The spot is where the ball is when the player is downed. The player's practically entire body could be in the end zone, except the ball only made it to the six-inch line, and it would not be a TD. In a similar way a player whose body is in the end zone but manages to get the ball out to the six-inch line, it is not a safety.

The problem here is that nobody cares where the ball is spotted on 2nd & 9 in the 1st Qtr when the guy is short six or seven yards. But on 3rd & 1 from the 10 when you're rooting for Houston to beat Texas and the spot is a yard off - which it undeniably was - you scream that tu has the refs in their pocket.

Does it matter that they called more penalties on Texas than Houston? Does it matter that obvious non-calls cost Texas 17 points? Of course not. Because you wanted the sips to lose. But put yourself in Texas' shoes. If A&M gets screwed out of 17 points vs Miss State, but the Ags end up winning on a horrible call against MSU with a minute left, are you gonna scream from the rafters about how bad the refs are?