…paired with an entire offense of NFL talent (at least one future hall of famer and an entire offensive line of future NFL starters), and the best we could do was win the Cotton Bowl.

Our team this year is full of talent, but nothing near the 2012 team. The thought that we would expect 10 wins when that was basically the ceiling under the best of conditions presents an interesting debate: is this team worthy of that expectation? Or are we destined to be disappointed?

Guy on a Buffalo said:

---

…paired with an entire offense of NFL talent (at least one future hall of famer and an entire offensive line of future NFL starters), and the best we could do was win the Cotton Bowl.

Our team this year is full of talent, but nothing near the 2012 team. The thought that we would expect 10 wins when that was basically the ceiling under the best of conditions presents an interesting debate: is this team worthy of that expectation? Or are we destined to be disappointed?

---

I mean,
We might've had one helluva squad, but Sumlin wasn't much different than JFF.

Defense wins championships


One of these days we'll quit ****ing around & hire a top flight defensive head coach

Oh, and thats worked sooo well for tcu, bama and georgia. Come on!

OP, and just think, if it wasn't for the Hurricane in the gulf, we don't have to postpone the La Tech game and have a chance for JFF and Evans to play their first college games as a warm up to be better prepared to take on Florida instead of having to face a good Gator team as their first game right off the bat. Also, what if Summy doesn't call the timeout right before half when the kicker missed the FG, giving him a second shot at it and he drained it down the middle to go into half.

Or, what about our other loss that year to Lsu when Williams returned the kickoff down to the 30 and Taylor Bertolet ends up missing a FG from 33 yards out. If we could have taken advantage of his great kick return and punch in a TD, we win that game instead of losing it 24-19.

And, honestly at the end of the year we were the best team in college football and most anybody who really knows football and if they put their biased aside, we should have got to play for the championship and we would have won it. Unfortunately, media has usually hated on us but you can lie to the naked eye.

Petrino impressed the **** out of me with his interviews. Maybe he'll get us right and Jimbo will get out of the way. Good things to come this year.

Freaking Bertolet.

Missed two field goals and a PAT (7 points) in that stinking 5 point loss.

The fumble right before the half was also very costly.

LSU derailed a storybook MNC season.

Sherman left Sumlin some great players...

but he also left him that kicker

It Aint Easy Being Brown said:

---

Defense wins championships


One of these days we'll quit **** around & hire a top flight defensive head coach

---

I would offer Saban hires great DCs and enforces a real "process" from recruiting to frequent NC wins. RC fell into the trap of preferring safety over innovation which Johnny and Sumlin reminded him that it made his team vulnerable to HUNH and being outsmarted. So he revamped his offense to score more to cover the risk.

Was Johnny the greatest QB ever? No…but he was even more valuable than great: he was unschemable in college. The great unexpected.

The funny part is he and Evans tore up DeRuyter's defenses as a scout team first if the stories are true…

Ol Rock said:

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Freaking Bertolet.

Missed two field goals and a PAT (7 points) in that stinking 5 point loss.

---

This

Well we have been over this many times.

But for hurricane our first game is not Florida and with warm game most feel that flips to Aggie win. That gets us to SEC championship and likely playing for title.

Or we could have beaten LSU…and only reason they hung around after appearing to go down 3 TDs very very early was because of a bull crap chop block call on ATM…

But forget officiating. Hurricane didn't allow true freshman a warm up game and that, though we didn't know it at the time, was gigantic!!!!

merch said:

---

Well we have been over this many times.

But for hurricane our first game is not Florida and with warm game most feel that flips to Aggie win. That gets us to SEC championship and likely playing for title.

Or we could have beaten LSU…and only reason they hung around after appearing to go down 3 TDs very very early was because of a bull crap chop block call on ATM…

But forget officiating. Hurricane didn't allow true freshman a warm up game and that, though we didn't know it at the time, was gigantic!!!!

---

That wouldn't have been a "warm up game". La Tech was VERY good that year and we were fortunate to win when we did finally play them. Those thinking that that game would have been a cake walk are clearly wrong and it VERY easily could have gone the other way. Imagine what 2012 looks like if we drop the first game against La Tech.

Guy on a Buffalo said:

---

…paired with an entire offense of NFL talent (at least one future hall of famer and an entire offensive line of future NFL starters), and the best we could do was win the Cotton Bowl.

Our team this year is full of talent, but nothing near the 2012 team. The thought that we would expect 10 wins when that was basically the ceiling under the best of conditions presents an interesting debate: is this team worthy of that expectation? Or are we destined to be disappointed?

---

I think you're overreaching with greatest CFB player of all time. Mostly reaching with how many would be considered greatest of all time. Should be 4 no more than 5 players and he clearly isn't one of the 5 greatest CFB players of all time.

Only reason he wouldn't be in the top 5 is if you are biased.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Only reason he wouldn't be in the top 5 is if you are biased.

---

Or he's not close to being one of the best 5 players in the sports history. Not really debatable if you're objective. What is debatable is how many can be considered greatest of all time.

TheTruthsLastHope said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Only reason he wouldn't be in the top 5 is if you are biased.

---

Or he's not close to being one of the best 5 players in the sports history. Not really debatable if you're objective. What is debatable is how many can be considered greatest of all time.

---

Idk man. He put up numbers in his first two years that are incredible, especially in the SEC. Only reason he wouldn't be in the Top 5 is because he only played 2 years. What he did in those two years were amazing. First freshman to win the heisman, then had even better numbers the next year. Only reason he didn't win it back to back was because he soured in the public eye and we lost 4 games. But he most certainly should have won it twice as a freshman and sophomore. That's how good he really was

what other players have put up that amount of production against that level of competition?

The Banned said:

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Idk man. He put up numbers in his first two years that are incredible, especially in the SEC. Only reason he wouldn't be in the Top 5 is because he only played 2 years. What he did in those two years were amazing. First freshman to win the heisman, then had even better numbers the next year. Only reason he didn't win it back to back was because he soured in the public eye and we lost 4 games. But he most certainly should have won it twice as a freshman and sophomore. That's how good he really was

---

How many Manziel body pillows do you own? lol

I agree with you that winning the Heisman as a freshman does qualify him as one of the best of all time. At least all time in the modern era of football starting with the BCS and later era.

Only Fans Director said:

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The Banned said:

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Idk man. He put up numbers in his first two years that are incredible, especially in the SEC. Only reason he wouldn't be in the Top 5 is because he only played 2 years. What he did in those two years were amazing. First freshman to win the heisman, then had even better numbers the next year. Only reason he didn't win it back to back was because he soured in the public eye and we lost 4 games. But he most certainly should have won it twice as a freshman and sophomore. That's how good he really was

---

How many Manziel body pillows do you own? lol

I agree with you that winning the Heisman as a freshman does qualify him as one of the best of all time. At least all time in the modern era of football starting with the BCS and later era.

---

Just depends on how may can be considered for greatest of all time. Even modern day he doesn't come close to top 5. If you're considering 25-30 as greatest of all time then he'd probably classify

EliteZags said:

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what other players have put up that amount of production against that level of competition?

---

Irrelevant to what I posted. He's not one of the 5 greatest CFB players of all time that's simply laughable at best, worst case some low level trolling.

by irrelevant you must mean extremely relevant

answer the question

TheTruthsLastHope said:

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EliteZags said:

---

what other players have put up that amount of production against that level of competition?

---

Irrelevant to what I posted. He's not one of the 5 greatest CFB players of all time that's simply laughable at best, worst case some low level trolling.

---

Can you explain what metrics you're using?

He's using Biased Feels.

probably bullsh*t like championships, good teammate, role model etc


Tebow is widely regarded as one of the best of all time, JFF blew his numbers out of the water

EliteZags said:

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probably bullsh*t like championships, good teammate, role model etc


Tebow is widely regarded as one of the best of all time, JFF blew his numbers out of the water

---

Kind of what I'm thinking.

This current team can be very good if the players pay attention, no drama, a little luck with few injuries and the coaches play smart.

The Banned said:

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TheTruthsLastHope said:

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EliteZags said:

---

what other players have put up that amount of production against that level of competition?

---

Irrelevant to what I posted. He's not one of the 5 greatest CFB players of all time that's simply laughable at best, worst case some low level trolling.

---

Can you explain what metrics you're using?

---

Conference championships or national championships maybe.

Hungry Ojos said:

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merch said:

---

Well we have been over this many times.

But for hurricane our first game is not Florida and with warm game most feel that flips to Aggie win. That gets us to SEC championship and likely playing for title.

Or we could have beaten LSU…and only reason they hung around after appearing to go down 3 TDs very very early was because of a bull crap chop block call on ATM…

But forget officiating. Hurricane didn't allow true freshman a warm up game and that, though we didn't know it at the time, was gigantic!!!!

---

That wouldn't have been a "warm up game". La Tech was VERY good that year and we were fortunate to win when we did finally play them. Those thinking that that game would have been a cake walk are clearly wrong and it VERY easily could have gone the other way. Imagine what 2012 looks like if we drop the first game against La Tech.

---

I agree we probably lose the first game anyway, but if it helps us prepare and beat Florida, we have an extra SEC win which is better.

bmks270 said:

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The Banned said:

---

TheTruthsLastHope said:

---

EliteZags said:

---

what other players have put up that amount of production against that level of competition?

---

Irrelevant to what I posted. He's not one of the 5 greatest CFB players of all time that's simply laughable at best, worst case some low level trolling.

---

Can you explain what metrics you're using?

---

Conference championships or national championships maybe.

---

It's a team sport. You can be the best player in the game and never win a championship. Especially in college when you have a very limited amount of time

Guy on a Buffalo said:

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…paired with an entire offense of NFL talent (at least one future hall of famer and an entire offensive line of future NFL starters), and the best we could do was win the Cotton Bowl.

Our team this year is full of talent, but nothing near the 2012 team. The thought that we would expect 10 wins when that was basically the ceiling under the best of conditions presents an interesting debate: is this team worthy of that expectation? Or are we destined to be disappointed?

---

A) Saying the best we could do was win a cotton bowl is a bit misleading. By years end, that team was one of the top 2-3 in the country. Maybe the best. We all know that team was better than a TCU, or Notre Dame, or Washington team that have all made a recent playoff. In a just world, we'd have made the playoffs. But it wasn't around back then. We'd have definitely made a 12-team playoff that starts next year.

B) I bet this team has more overall draft picks on it. What may be hard to beat is the total 1st rounders, but even that's possible. Saying it's nothing near the 2012 teams is ridiculous. Especially when you consider defense.

That 2012 team had 14 total drafted players on it. 11 who played in 2012. 10 on offense. Only 3 total on defense, and a punter. 6 were first round picks. The following players on it that eventually were drafted:

2013 Draft x6

Luke Joeckel
Christine Michael
Damontre Moore
Sean Porter
Ryan Swope
Jake Matthews

2014 Draft x3

Jake Matthews
Mike Evans
Johnny Manziel

2015 Draft x2

Cedric Ogbuehi
Jarvis Harrison

2016 Draft x3 (none played in 2012)

Germain Ifedi (redshirted and did not play)
Brandon Williams (not eligible in 2012)
Drew Kaser (redshirted and did not play)

I'll bet we end up with more than 14 who are on this roster drafted over the next 4 classes. FWIW, if you look at a bama or Georgia roster, this doesn't even compare to it. 14 draft picks and 6 1st rounders. Even on paper, this shouldn't win a championship. Though it should have been the best offense in the country, which it was.

Guy on a Buffalo said:

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…paired with an entire offense of NFL talent (at least one future hall of famer and an entire offensive line of future NFL starters), and the best we could do was win the Cotton Bowl.

Our team this year is full of talent, but nothing near the 2012 team. The thought that we would expect 10 wins when that was basically the ceiling under the best of conditions presents an interesting debate: is this team worthy of that expectation? Or are we destined to be disappointed?

---

Forget the "what ifs" of the past, you can't change the past. Forget the "what ifs" of the future, you can't predict or change the future. So that leaves only the present.

Will I be disappointed with anything less than a NATTY ? Absolutely ! (check my signature below). So, we'll see what happens in the future of this season, and re-assess at the end of the year. I don't see any "debate" to be addressed here.

As Bruce Buffer proclaims for the UFC....... It's Tiiiiiiiiiimmmmmmmme !

amskier1 said:

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OP, and just think, if it wasn't for the Hurricane in the gulf, we don't have to postpone the La Tech game and have a chance for JFF and Evans to play their first college games as a warm up to be better prepared to take on Florida instead of having to face a good Gator team as their first game right off the bat. Also, what if Summy doesn't call the timeout right before half when the kicker missed the FG, giving him a second shot at it and he drained it down the middle to go into half.

Or, what about our other loss that year to Lsu when Williams returned the kickoff down to the 30 and Taylor Bertolet ends up missing a FG from 33 yards out. If we could have taken advantage of his great kick return and punch in a TD, we win that game instead of losing it 24-19.

And, honestly at the end of the year we were the best team in college football and most anybody who really knows football and if they put their biased aside, we should have got to play for the championship and we would have won it. Unfortunately, media has usually hated on us but you can lie to the naked eye.

---

that's alll stuff to think about.

but what about this:

that la tech team was damn good and I think had we played them opening week like we were supposed to, we may have lost that one as our offense may not have been up to speed yet to be able to score with them.

they had a badass offense as well that year and a QB with experience.

it can work both ways.

and we still may have lost to florida in game 2 because muschamp would have had tape on jff and his second half defense may have been employed all game and shut us down

so thinking about it that way we may have gone 8-4 instead of 10-2

who the heck knows?

but I do agree that we were the best team in the country by the time we beat alabama.

Hungry Ojos said:

---

merch said:

---

Well we have been over this many times.

But for hurricane our first game is not Florida and with warm game most feel that flips to Aggie win. That gets us to SEC championship and likely playing for title.

Or we could have beaten LSU…and only reason they hung around after appearing to go down 3 TDs very very early was because of a bull crap chop block call on ATM…

But forget officiating. Hurricane didn't allow true freshman a warm up game and that, though we didn't know it at the time, was gigantic!!!!

---

That wouldn't have been a "warm up game". La Tech was VERY good that year and we were fortunate to win when we did finally play them. Those thinking that that game would have been a cake walk are clearly wrong and it VERY easily could have gone the other way. Imagine what 2012 looks like if we drop the first game against La Tech.

---

Exactly. While I think we win, there's no guarantee we beat La Tech in game 1.

Johnny was rolling by La Tech. They weren't as efficient game 1. Our defense has ZERO depth that year. I mean absolutely none. See the 2013 defense. See Missouri when we put in our back ups. ANd see La Tech when we had a few suspended players out.

That likely would have still been a shootout no matter when it was played, like it was in the middle of the year. Shootouts are never guaranteed wins.

Ol Rock said:

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Freaking Bertolet.

Missed two field goals and a PAT (7 points) in that stinking 5 point loss.

The fumble right before the half was also very costly.

LSU derailed a storybook MNC season.

---

If that 2012 team would have won the National Title the football program would most likely be where current day LSU or Alabama reside as national powers.

I could see 1 or 2 more Heisman Winners, plus a couple of SEC titles. Probably 1 or 2 more appearances in the CFP and National Title Game.

When you win the Natty its gives your school all sorts of exposure, plus the recognition of being able to call yourself the very best in the country.

TCU had a chance to join that elusive Champions Club, but instead they got Rodney King'd in the National Title Game.

NyAggie said:

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amskier1 said:

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OP, and just think, if it wasn't for the Hurricane in the gulf, we don't have to postpone the La Tech game and have a chance for JFF and Evans to play their first college games as a warm up to be better prepared to take on Florida instead of having to face a good Gator team as their first game right off the bat. Also, what if Summy doesn't call the timeout right before half when the kicker missed the FG, giving him a second shot at it and he drained it down the middle to go into half.

Or, what about our other loss that year to Lsu when Williams returned the kickoff down to the 30 and Taylor Bertolet ends up missing a FG from 33 yards out. If we could have taken advantage of his great kick return and punch in a TD, we win that game instead of losing it 24-19.

And, honestly at the end of the year we were the best team in college football and most anybody who really knows football and if they put their biased aside, we should have got to play for the championship and we would have won it. Unfortunately, media has usually hated on us but you can lie to the naked eye.

---

that's alll stuff to think about.

but what about this:

that la tech team was damn good and I think had we played them opening week like we were supposed to, we may have lost that one as our offense may not have been up to speed yet to be able to score with them.

they had a badass offense as well that year and a QB with experience.

it can work both ways.

and we still may have lost to florida in game 2 because muschamp would have had tape on jff and his second half defense may have been employed all game and shut us down

so thinking about it that way we may have gone 8-4 instead of 10-2

who the heck knows?

but I do agree that we were the best team in the country by the time we beat alabama.

---

See I think our offense was just fine. After the Florida game we went.........

SMU---------48-3
S Car St-----70-14
Arky----------58-10

La Tech with their no defense went

cougar high--------56-49
Rice------------------56-37
Illinois---------------52-24
Virginia--------------44-38

Yeah I definitely think we win it and it gives us back our bye week right before the Lsu game. I think that bye week alone, makes a difference but especially considering we replaced it with a track meet right before playing Lsu. Oh yeah and we had to go on the road to old piss and follow that with our bye week (nope, go on the road again to our track meet with La Tech) and then face Lsu. Yeah, I really do think those things add up and changes things. Not to mention again what I did in my original post about not scoring on Williams kick return and Bertolet missing a 33 yarder with the wind at his back.

I think there were several factors lining up against us in both our losses. We could have easily gone 12-0 or 11-1

But again, and glad you agree, there was no doubt we were the best by the end of the season.