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is this an illegal formation?

18,572 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by bigjag19
Quito
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TE is covered up by a WR on the line. Obviously if this is a pass play and the TE runs a route it's illegal.

What if it is a running play? Does it matter if TE is covered?

What about a pass play, but the TE stays in to block and does not gun a route?
ashley
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A receiver cannot cover another receiver on any play.
eeaggie11
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All of these scenarios are legal. The rules basically state you have to have a minimum of 7 players on the line of scrimmage. In theory you could have 10 players on the line of scrimmage. It is just not a smart tactical move because you are telling the defense which players they don't have to account for in coverage.
Sq 17
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ashley said:

A receiver cannot cover another receiver on any play.


If covered , the player is no longer a receiver , there is the whole thing about wearing an eligible number but that may only apply to players wearing ineligible numbers who are in an eligible position in the formation
cevans_40
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If the TE runs a downfield route on a pass play, that is an ineligible man downfield, but the formation is still perfectly legal.
Quito
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So if WR on right goes in motion and we Jet sweep to him, this is a legal formation?

If it's 100% a run play, it doesn't matter if TE is covered? I'm coaching 6th grade football and want to make sure I'm teaching correctly.


Birddog
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Quito said:

So if WR on right goes in motion and we Jet sweep to him, this is a legal formation?

If it's 100% a run play, it doesn't matter if TE is covered? I'm coaching 6th grade football and want to make sure I'm teaching correctly.



Yes, that is legal play. Just make sure your WR is off the LOS as a lineman cannot go in motion.

Per covered TE, yes, it is legal. You can have 10 players on the LOS if you want, but that means you only have two eligible receivers if they are not numbered 50-79.
Bluecat_Aggie94
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Could you throw a screen pass to a covered TE?
greg.w.h
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I'm sure there is a blog…

https://mgoblog.com/content/what-covered-tight-endreceiver
vander54
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Bluecat_Aggie94 said:

Could you throw a screen pass to a covered TE?


No

He's an ineligible receiver so he cannot be the first to touch it.
World's worst proofreader
OrygunAg
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Yes, purpose of using covered is to create mismatches and confusion. Perfectly legal but helps if you tell officials at beginning of game that you use covered so they don't screw it up for you. We use it and unbalanced looks in a variant of a gun t offense but to set up the run. Use your normal series then start mixing in trips with one being covered so the defense still has to account for the covered as a blocker. Thats if they even recognize they are covered. Either way you'll have a mismatch. You'll have the end on the other side of the line as an eligible receiver so can hit that as well. At some youth levels they don't worry about jersey numbers so makes it really easy esp if you have smaller weight eligible kids on line but talk to the refs ahead! We will add in some unblanced, shifts, pulls or motions as the d tries to adjust to create further mismatches. Have to practice it but at the youth level, covered and unbalanced works very well. Players and most youth coaches wont pick up on it, will focus on the bunches, or play wack o mole finding the eligible receivers which slows them down. Its also easy for your youth qbs to get comfortable for simple rpos.
CrottyKid
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Some officials simply count the number of players in the backfield. Make sure to talk to them ahead of time.
Frank Grimes
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vander54 said:

Bluecat_Aggie94 said:

Could you throw a screen pass to a covered TE?


No

He's an ineligible receiver so he cannot be the first to touch it.
Which presumably means he could not receive a shovel pass either. But a handoff to the TE would be okay, right? (Not that that would necessarily be a good play.)
StinkyPinky
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Frank Grimes said:

vander54 said:

Bluecat_Aggie94 said:

Could you throw a screen pass to a covered TE?


No

He's an ineligible receiver so he cannot be the first to touch it.
Which presumably means he could not receive a shovel pass either. But a handoff to the TE would be okay, right? (Not that that would necessarily be a good play.)
True, the exception is if your TE is Vernon Davis
Frank Grimes
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Why did the Browns (in the preseason game) keep getting flagged for covering up the tight end -- illegal formation? It seems like it should only be penalty if he went downfield on a passing play -- illegal man downfield. Is there a different rule in the NFL?
bigjag19
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TE covered can block all day. If a pass crosses the line of scrimmage and a covered "receiver" is downfield it's a foul. If you are playing youth there is a 90% chance it won't be noticed. Same with JH and even JV.

If a receiver is covered you can't throw a forward pass to them anywhere.

There is no such thing in the rules as a shovel pass. All passes are either forward or backward, based on the direction the ball is throw. How the QB releases the ball is irrelevant.
Frank Grimes
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bigjag19 said:

TE covered can block all day. If a pass crosses the line of scrimmage and a covered "receiver" is downfield it's a foul. If you are playing youth there is a 90% chance it won't be noticed. Same with JH and even JV.

If a receiver is covered you can't throw a forward pass to them anywhere.

There is no such thing in the rules as a shovel pass. All passes are either forward or backward, based on the direction the ball is throw. How the QB releases the ball is irrelevant.
I was not referring to the rules definition of a shovel pass. I think everyone knows that play as an underhanded (or side-armed or forward flick) forward pass just behind the line of scrimmage. I doubt anyone would consider an underhanded backwards lateral to be a shovel pass.
bigjag19
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Frank Grimes said:

bigjag19 said:

TE covered can block all day. If a pass crosses the line of scrimmage and a covered "receiver" is downfield it's a foul. If you are playing youth there is a 90% chance it won't be noticed. Same with JH and even JV.

If a receiver is covered you can't throw a forward pass to them anywhere.

There is no such thing in the rules as a shovel pass. All passes are either forward or backward, based on the direction the ball is throw. How the QB releases the ball is irrelevant.
I was not referring to the rules definition of a shovel pass. I think everyone knows that play as an underhanded (or side-armed or forward flick) forward pass just behind the line of scrimmage. I doubt anyone would consider an underhanded backwards lateral to be a shovel pass.



You'd be amazed how many people think a traditionally thrown overhand pass that travels backwards isn't a backwards pass. Or a shovel pass that falls to the ground is a fumble.
whiryno
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I'd think you'd want to teach that as an over play and swap the TE and RT. Now your TE is still eligible and you have a bigger body blocking a smaller one on the run side.
Frank Grimes
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bigjag19 said:

Frank Grimes said:

bigjag19 said:

TE covered can block all day. If a pass crosses the line of scrimmage and a covered "receiver" is downfield it's a foul. If you are playing youth there is a 90% chance it won't be noticed. Same with JH and even JV.

If a receiver is covered you can't throw a forward pass to them anywhere.

There is no such thing in the rules as a shovel pass. All passes are either forward or backward, based on the direction the ball is throw. How the QB releases the ball is irrelevant.
I was not referring to the rules definition of a shovel pass. I think everyone knows that play as an underhanded (or side-armed or forward flick) forward pass just behind the line of scrimmage. I doubt anyone would consider an underhanded backwards lateral to be a shovel pass.



You'd be amazed how many people think a traditionally thrown overhand pass that travels backwards isn't a backwards pass. Or a shovel pass that falls to the ground is a fumble.
But they eventually learn... Now who can answer my other question about the calls in the Browns preseason game?
schmiddy94
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Yes, the NFL rules for covering an eligible receiver is different from the NCAA rules.

In the NFL eligibile receivers cannot be covered on any offensive play. Found this statement:

"Under NFL rules, players are numbered for eligibility. Tight ends and wide receivers must be on the end of the line of scrimmage in order to be an eligible pass receiver. If a wide receiver is on the line of scrimmage and a tight end is inside of him, an illegal formation has occurred because another eligible has covered the eligible tight end. The formation would be legal if the wide receiver would drop off of the line of scrimmage so that he is not in a direct line with the tight end."

As many posters have pointed out in the NCAA players with eligible numbers can be covered up on any play. But they are restricted from going downfield during a forward pass play.
Frank Grimes
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schmiddy94 said:

Yes, the NFL rules for covering an eligible receiver is different from the NCAA rules.

In the NFL eligibile receivers cannot be covered on any offensive play. Found this statement:

"Under NFL rules, players are numbered for eligibility. Tight ends and wide receivers must be on the end of the line of scrimmage in order to be an eligible pass receiver. If a wide receiver is on the line of scrimmage and a tight end is inside of him, an illegal formation has occurred because another eligible has covered the eligible tight end. The formation would be legal if the wide receiver would drop off of the line of scrimmage so that he is not in a direct line with the tight end."

As many posters have pointed out in the NCAA players with eligible numbers can be covered up on any play. But they are restricted from going downfield during a forward pass play.


Thanks.
BlitzGD
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Lineman can absolutely go into motion before the snap, they just must be set for at least one second before the ball is snapped/play goes live.

See it all the time on special teams, where the line starts up outside the hashes except for the center, and then if they don't get the correct read from the other side, they all motion back to standard line formation.
Quarterback can't throw the ball lying on his back.
20ags08
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What you are describing is a shift, not a motion.

Birddog
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BlitzGD said:

Lineman can absolutely go into motion before the snap, they just must be set for at least one second before the ball is snapped/play goes live.

See it all the time on special teams, where the line starts up outside the hashes except for the center, and then if they don't get the correct read from the other side, they all motion back to standard line formation.


When the "lineman" steps back and is set for one second he the becomes a back. Therefore the "back" is in motion not the "lineman".

You are wrong. A "lineman" can NEVER be in motion at the snap. A lineman who establishs as a back by stepping backwards off the LOS and stays stationary for a second can be in motion, but by definition he is no longer a lineman but instead is a back.
bigjag19
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It's a semantics issue at best. But technically speaking, a lineman can be in motion then stop before the snap. A team comes set, outside receiver (lineman) desires to move in 3 yards. Technically that's motion and he then stops and the ball is snapped. 1 second is not required in this instance.

Multiple players moving is a shift. After a shift 1 second of stillness is required.
91AggieLawyer
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There's a LOT of misinformation on this thread.

Under NCAA rules:

-- a Tight END (not specifically defined by the rules, but used in the Approved Ruling) is on the END of the line, hence the term. As long as the END is eligible by number (i.e. not numbered 50-79), he is an eligible receiver and can go downfield, block, etc. If he is numbered 50-79, he can't go downfield nor is he eligible to catch a FORWARD pass, regardless of where it is complete. There's no requirement that the player on the end of the line be eligible by number (I think the NFL has a different requirement). But a 79, for example, on the end of the line is NOT eligible to go downfield or catch a forward pass. There is no reporting to the Referee.

-- what would be a TE is "covered up" (not a legal term, but used by officials and coaches) by another player, usually an eligible receiver, when someone else is on the line outside of the would be TE. Keep in mind that to be "one the line" means his head is breaking the waist of the snapper. Officials are taught to "make a player off" if he is supposed to be off the line, or "make him on" if he's supposed to be on. In other words, don't get too technical. But sometimes, teams line up in the wrong formation and the crew doesn't have much of a choice. If the defense is confused and the would be TE (covered) goes downfield, it should be a foul.

-- only a BACK can go in motion. PERIOD. Saying otherwise is false: "The player who goes in motion may not start from the line of scrimmage unless they first become a back and come to a complete stop." If you see someone leave their spot from the line, that is probably a SHIFT, not motion.

-- there is no requirement for 7 on the line. There IS a requirement for NO MORE THAN 4 in the backfield. What is the difference? None, really, IF there are 11 on offense. The difference applies IF the offense has fewer players than 11. The rules committee decided, about 15 or so years ago, that they'd not penalize them for not having 7 on the line. Instead, they said no more than 4 in the backfield. Plus, it is easier to officiate. Practical difference? Little to none, but if you see 6 on the line, it isn't necessarily a foul.

-- there are 2 types of passes by rule -- forward and backward. All other terms, shovel, lateral, etc. are vernacular terms. You can use them if you want, but they have no basis in the rules. It doesn't matter how either of them are thrown -- overhanded or underhanded. The snap, by the way, is a backward pass.
bigjag19
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My previous point was semantics. Motion at the snap obviously is only a back. Pre-snap motion is undefined and a shift has to be at least 2. See my previous post and example of what "legal lineman motion" would look like.
greg.w.h
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This is an ancient response (2012) and so the rules could have changed some, but it highlights the common understanding of linemen being set for one full second prior to snap.

"Those movements are treated the same as a shift prior to the play or a tight end going into motion. From page 98 of the college football rule book ( http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR09.pdf) (emphasis mine):

ARTICLE 4.

a. If a snap is preceded by a huddle or shift, all players of the offensive team must come to an absolute stop and remain stationary in their positions, without movement of the feet, body, head or arms, for at least one full second before the ball is snapped (A.R. 7-1-4-I) [S20].

b. It is not intended that Rule 7-1-4-a should prohibit smooth, rhythmical shifts if properly executed. A smooth cadence shift or unhurried motion is not an infraction. However, it is the responsibility of an offensive player who moves before the snap to do so in a manner that in no way simulates the beginning of a play. After the ball is ready for play and all players are in scrimmage formation, no offensive player shall make a quick, jerky movement before the snap, including but not limited to (A.R. 7-1-4-II-IV):

A lineman moving his foot, shoulder, arm, body or head in a quick, jerky motion in any direction [S19]."

The comment on tight end being in motion implies legal receiver so not covered. Back and sideways motion by backs and receivers is allowed but not towards LOS. You often see shifts re-aligning 7 on line when a receiver goes in motion.

The number thing is to allow the defense to recognize those who can and cannot receive. Anyone can block, though, but the rules outside the central line has more restrictions in blocking below the waist:

"Linemen with initial position completely inside the tackle box may legally block below the waist inside the tackle box until the ball leaves the tackle box. All other Team A players are allowed to block below the waist only if the force of the initial contact is directed from the front. "Directed from the front" is defined as within the clock face region between "10 o'clock and 2 o'clock" forward of the area of concentration of the player being blocked.

Exceptions:

-Team A players may not block below the waist when the block occurs five yards or more beyond the neutral zone.

-Players outside the tackle box at the snap ,or any time after the snap, or in motion at the snap may not block below the waist toward the original position of the ball at the snap.

-Once the ball has left the tackle box, a player may not block below the waist toward his own end line."

It's a complex topic. And note that cut blocks are not chop blocks but still can be legal or illegal by the rules.

What used to get called as clipping is now block int back: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(gridiron_football)

This isn't all directly relevant to the original ask, it it helps frame several contexts for the specific rules. Note tight ends are outside the tackle box UNLESS between the tackles and therefore ineligible as a receiver. So they cannot cut block…assuming it's called of course…
Quito
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What if a player is to go in motion, he's taught to line up as a War but back one step. If he accidentally lines up on the line and goes in motion and receives a jet sweep, is that a penalty?
greg.w.h
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If on line must step back or illegal motion. If two move it's a shift so must be set for one second.

Jet starting on line means a backwards movement but I was of the opinion must stop for one second since in backfield. I'll look for the rule but for now:

https://www.rookieroad.com/football/penalties/illegal-shift/

https://www.rookieroad.com/football/penalties/illegal-shift/



bigjag19
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Quito said:

What if a player is to go in motion, he's taught to line up as a War but back one step. If he accidentally lines up on the line and goes in motion and receives a jet sweep, is that a penalty?


Potentially 2 actually
greg.w.h
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bigjag19 said:

Quito said:

What if a player is to go in motion, he's taught to line up as a War but back one step. If he accidentally lines up on the line and goes in motion and receives a jet sweep, is that a penalty?


Potentially 2 actually
I think illegal motion is like illegal procedure…play blown dead immediately.
bigjag19
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It's not. Illegal procedure doesn't exist. False start is play blown dead. As is illegal sub by offense. Or contact by defense. Everything else is live ball.
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