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Stopping inside zone with a 4-1 front

3,241 Views | 20 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by cwag87
Sethtevious
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One of Nick Saban's adjustments to JFF and A&M's offense in 2012-'13 was the creation of a specific 'spread package'. This was nothing new, RC used to have a 1-4-6 defensive package he'd use to stop Houston's run-n-shoot and Louisiana Tech's spread offense in the pre-Air Raid days. Saban's version of a spread defense package was basically a 4-1-6, or 41 Dime. He then gave clinics on how to stop the inside zone running game using a 5-man front. From observation of his team on the field, it was based around having stud defensive linemen, an All-American like Reggie Ragland as the lone linebacker, and allowed the dime secondary to shut down the passing game. 4 WRs on 6 DBs is a mismatch, not even counting the talent disparity Bama enjoyed over 99% of programs at the time.

D.J. Durkin has his own theories on how to stop the zone running game out of 10 personnel, and we saw some of it against LSU last season.

We came out against LSU showing a 4-1 front versus their 10 personnel.



We show 4 DL and 1 LB in the box, basically baiting them to run because they have a 7-on-5 advantage in the box. We also have Caleb Russell aligned outside between the slot receiver and right tackle, giving us 4 covering their 3 receivers to the field and a 2-on-1 advantage to the boundary. Simple math says run the ball.

At the snap, we have all four linemen stunting. SDE Shemar Turner goes for the B gap while 1-tech McKinnley Jackson goes for the C gap. 3-tech Walter Nolen goes outside for the B gap while WDE LT Overton goes inside to the A gap. The stunts do two things: screw up the zone blocking assignments for LSU and allow Jackson and Turner to execute a scrape exchange.

A scrape exchange is a defensive answer to the inside zone/zone read. Basically, the defense is dictating to the offense what read the QB will make, and assigning players to cover both reads. Normally, a scrape exchange involves a DE and a LB, with the DE crashing to take the running back inside and the LB taking the QB. In this case, we have Turner taking the RB and Jackson taking Jayden Daniels.



We see Turner does a great job crashing down to stop the run, leaving Jackson to play Daniels outside. The RT shadows Daniels and attempts to seal him outside. Overton comes free right down the line off his stunt and cleans up, making the tackle on Daniels for a minimal gain.

A&M showed a 4-1 front, baited LSU, LSU took the bait, and A&M's 4-1 front stuffed their inside zone run play.
Rule#2
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AG
Football talk?

Beautifully executed. We should do that more often.
Only Fans Director
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Rule#2 said:

Football talk?

Beautifully executed. We should do that more often.
Sorry, I am just too busy boycotting a different company every other day.
Proud father of an Aggie undergrad!
greg.w.h
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Nattie said:

Rule#2 said:

Football talk?

Beautifully executed. We should do that more often.
Sorry, I am just too busy boycotting a different company every other day.
Must be exhausting…
Bunk Moreland
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OP that's neat and all but what does this have to do with our intro music, cheerleaders on the sidelines, or the introduction of Ringy as the official mascot over Rev?
StinkyPinky
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Sethtevious said:

One of Nick Saban's adjustments to JFF and A&M's offense in 2012-'13 was the creation of a specific 'spread package'. This was nothing new, RC used to have a 1-4-6 defensive package he'd use to stop Houston's run-n-shoot and Louisiana Tech's spread offense in the pre-Air Raid days. Saban's version of a spread defense package was basically a 4-1-6, or 41 Dime. He then gave clinics on how to stop the inside zone running game using a 5-man front. From observation of his team on the field, it was based around having stud defensive linemen, an All-American like Reggie Ragland as the lone linebacker, and allowed the dime secondary to shut down the passing game. 4 WRs on 6 DBs is a mismatch, not even counting the talent disparity Bama enjoyed over 99% of programs at the time.

D.J. Durkin has his own theories on how to stop the zone running game out of 10 personnel, and we saw some of it against LSU last season.

We came out against LSU showing a 4-1 front versus their 10 personnel.



We show 4 DL and 1 LB in the box, basically baiting them to run because they have a 7-on-5 advantage in the box. We also have Caleb Russell aligned outside between the slot receiver and right tackle, giving us 4 covering their 3 receivers to the field and a 2-on-1 advantage to the boundary. Simple math says run the ball.

At the snap, we have all four linemen stunting. SDE Shemar Turner goes for the B gap while 1-tech McKinnley Jackson goes for the C gap. 3-tech Walter Nolen goes outside for the B gap while WDE LT Overton goes inside to the A gap. The stunts do two things: screw up the zone blocking assignments for LSU and allow Jackson and Turner to execute a scrape exchange.

A scrape exchange is a defensive answer to the inside zone/zone read. Basically, the defense is dictating to the offense what read the QB will make, and assigning players to cover both reads. Normally, a scrape exchange involves a DE and a LB, with the DE crashing to take the running back inside and the LB taking the QB. In this case, we have Turner taking the RB and Jackson taking Jayden Daniels.



We see Turner does a great job crashing down to stop the run, leaving Jackson to play Daniels outside. The RT shadows Daniels and attempts to seal him outside. Overton comes free right down the line off his stunt and cleans up, making the tackle on Daniels for a minimal gain.

A&M showed a 4-1 front, baited LSU, LSU took the bait, and A&M's 4-1 front stuffed their inside zone run play.


Wonder if Raikes switch was a read or designed first move. Can't figure out what the read would be.
Sethtevious
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Good pickup on my mixing up Isaiah Raikes with McKinnley Jackson. For some reason, I have it stuck in my head that Jackson is #34 and not #35 last season. Maybe Jackson's switch to #3 this year will fix it.

As for your question, it's a scrape exchange, his assignment is the QB after Turner forces the keep read. The scrape exchange exists so they don't have to 'read' the play, they can play their assignment.
greg.w.h
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So Durkin isn't an idiot…got it.
Cojack
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In the Zoo "idiot" bestows only the plays that don't work, no matter who is the author.
AnotherOldAgDad
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It's important to remember most of our defensive starters will have a year in Durkin's system, and their talent will show. There's a lot more thinking to line play- both sides of the ball, than people believe.

Sethtevious
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greg.w.h said:

So Durkin isn't an idiot…got it.
I wouldn't call him an idiot, but his short yardage calls were idiotic last year. I don't care what your base scheme is, if it is 4th and short and you have only 3 DL on the field, that's idiotic. If you're playing base 3-2-6 on 4th and 1, that's idiotic. If you're asking your safety to come from the third level to spill on 4th and 1, that's idiotic.
greg.w.h
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Sethtevious said:

greg.w.h said:

So Durkin isn't an idiot…got it.
I wouldn't call him an idiot, but his short yardage calls were idiotic last year. I don't care what your base scheme is, if it is 4th and short and you have only 3 DL on the field, that's idiotic. If you're playing base 3-2-6 on 4th and 1, that's idiotic. If you're asking your safety to come from the third level to spill on 4th and 1, that's idiotic.
So calling him an idiot fixes our defense? Or makes it worse, "coach"?
MojoAg06
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Stunting into zone is a guessing game with five guys. If they run it at a 1 tech looping and your end is late to the party they crease you to the safeties or the goalposts.

If you want to run a 4-1 and still stop the zone you better be running read-5's and 3's and have some olb's that can close space in a hurry. Even then all it takes is one dude getting reached or gapped out and you have a problem. If you're gonna squeeze and scrape it like you said, it works way better with a 4-2 box.

When we were in a 4-1 look, we had teams try to influence our end with zone away and send him crashing, then the tackle would turn out and seal the backer. End takes dive, QB player has a tackle in his face. Everyone else is gapped correctly. Safety better come downhill and they better not be RPOing your ass.

Of course all of this doesn't matter if you have dudes that whip their dudes up front and backers run free.
MojoAg06
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PS, I don't know that we've ever had safeties spill anything. They're usually the kill guy. Also, any type of weak OZ to the look you drew up is bad news bears. If we did that particular thing more than once I would be very surprised.
Sethtevious
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Quote:

Stunting into zone is a guessing game with five guys.
Yes, it is. That's why knowing their tendencies and baiting them to play to their tendencies is a good call.

Quote:

If they run it at a 1 tech looping and your end is late to the party they crease you to the safeties or the goalposts.
And if they block everyone correctly, it's a TD every time. If, if, if. You can if yourself to death in this game.
AnotherOldAgDad
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Which is why I think time in the system and especially time next to the guys you're working with and learning to trust is the factor not enough people are discussing. Yes it's an intangible factor, but it's still crucial.

Yes, numbers in the box matters and you can scheme yourself into some obvious bad decisions- which we definitely did at times. But execution matters. Damn, I sound like Fisher.

Look at the LSU game. It's not what they did that made the difference- it's what look we presented and how we were ready for their response.
MojoAg06
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Sethtevious said:

And if they block everyone correctly, it's a TD every time. If, if, if. You can if yourself to death in this game.


If they are zone heavy, you want to play gap sound and not be looping guys too much. Base is better vs zone than any stunt unless you're just talking about a simple slant. Save the looping for third and longs to bust their pass pro.
Sethtevious
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MojoAg06 said:

Sethtevious said:

And if they block everyone correctly, it's a TD every time. If, if, if. You can if yourself to death in this game.


If they are zone heavy, you want to play gap sound and not be looping guys too much. Base is better vs zone than any stunt unless you're just talking about a simple slant.
You need to go back and show me in the OP where I said we should align and play this way on every down, because I'm not seeing it. In fact, no one on this thread advanced this line of thinking. Why are you arguing against a stance literally no one has taken?

Quote:

Save the looping for third and longs to bust their pass pro.
And then they run half slide protection and Daniels is off to the races through the big gap right up the middle. Have any other brilliant suggestions?
maroon89
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Have plays and strategies always been this complicated? I've never played football. I mean, years ago it seemed bigger and faster teams always won, but their style of play looked unimaginative (eg, Woody Hayes, RC, Schembechler, etc.). Now we have zones, reads, multiple sets, packages, 4-1, 4-2, 4-3, 2-5, 3-4, 2-6.....

There is so much to this game. It's one of many reasons why I enjoy watching plays.
TX_Aggie37
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Sethtevious said:

MojoAg06 said:

Sethtevious said:

And if they block everyone correctly, it's a TD every time. If, if, if. You can if yourself to death in this game.


If they are zone heavy, you want to play gap sound and not be looping guys too much. Base is better vs zone than any stunt unless you're just talking about a simple slant.
You need to go back and show me in the OP where I said we should align and play this way on every down, because I'm not seeing it. In fact, no one on this thread advanced this line of thinking. Why are you arguing against a stance literally no one has taken?

Quote:

Save the looping for third and longs to bust their pass pro.
And then they run half slide protection and Daniels is off to the races through the big gap right up the middle. Have any other brilliant suggestions?
I like this guy
cwag87
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Great Post

Agreed that they are showing a light box to bait them into running. Would also add that if you look at the BDRY Safety, they may be rotating to a MOFC closed coverage post snap, thus gaining numbers back after the snap.

Coordinators at that level don't just "Guess" when they are running stunts. He knew pre snap that it was 10 PSN (No TE's) and ZN / ZN RD was likely a high percentage play out of that PSN grouping. You know based on back location which way the zone is going to run (Pistol would be a different story). So you set the 3 technique to the back and run the stunt in the video. I do agree that you can run into problems if the tackle comes back out and blocks the "Scrape" portion of the defense which is actually kind of what happens on the play (Tackle blocks the 3 tech looping out). The pop from the other side of the formation takes care of it though. RC and Bob Davie would do that with an OLB and 3 technique back in the day. They called it "Wk - Exit".

Lastly, curious to see what clinics you were referencing with Saban on defending zone with a 4-1 box. I know he did a NCOY clinic in the off season after they played sip in National Championship. He talks about what they did with their "Float" front in that game. Curious to see if you are referencing the same thing or if there is a different one. Would be interested in watching. Thanks.
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