BigDave21 said:

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W said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Same as Fran, same as Sumlin. Can't develop talent

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hold on now...

Sumlin had 7 first round picks and 3 second round picks

Jimbo thru 5 years...has only had 1 first round pick and 1 second round pick

it's not even close

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Are you serious? That's a DISGUSTING stat.

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Disgusting, yes. We have to have more draft picks than this. Also, incredibly misleading and much more circumstantial than suggesting Sumlin is a better talent evaluator. This doesn't paint the picture some of you seem to think it does, and actually reflects poorly on Sumlin.

For all the faults we blame Sherman on, he basically gifted Sumlin that stat. Sherman was a terrible face of the program to lead us into the SEC and had to be fired, but the man could evaluate talent with the best of them. Particularly on the OL. He recruited 3 first round OL in one class. Mike Evans and Johnny were generational talents, even if they weren't ranked high. Look at the measurables. All Sumlin had to do was sit back and let them go to work under Kliff and the rest was history.

Once that was gone, and it was time for Sumlin to develop talent of his own, produce a quality defense, etc., he fell flat on his face.

Fisher had to take over what sumlin left behind, which was significantly less likely to produce a first rounder. There just simply wasn't any first round talent.

The first 3-4 drafts are a much bigger picture of the previous coaching staff than the new one. Here's a hint. Developing talent is nice, but it also isn't this magical formula.

Sumlin would have had likely zero 1st round draft picks the last 5 years had he stayed (wouldn't have recruited Kenyon)

And no, I'm not defending Fisher. He has to be better if we want to take the next step as a program. His 2019/2020 classes have been an overall disappointment in terms of their rankings versus draft picks. The larger issue being attrition more so than development.

The time is now. The 2024 and 2025 NFL drafts have got to start producing 1st and 2nd round picks.

But to just blindly look at this as somehow suggesting Sumlin is better takes ignoring a lot of what took place to get to those numbers.

RyanPearson said:

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Tech somehow managed to get Tyree Wilson (a 3-star recruit from the 2019 class) drafted in the first round. We managed to get Demarvin Leal (a five star recruit in the same class) drafted in the 3 round.

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This isn't some knock against us. Leal as a 2nd round pick is a good thing. You think all 5 stars go first round?

52% are drafted. There was a 48% chance Leal didn't get drafted at all just by sheer percentages. I believe it's only about 20-30% that are 1st or 2nd round. Getting a guy drafted in the 2nd round is always a good thing.

Which players do you see currently on the roster going in the first round of next year's draft?

Face it: we are in bottom-of-the-barrel times.

levypantsEOY said:

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Which players do you see currently on the roster going in the first round of next year's draft?

Face it: we are in bottom-of-the-barrel times.

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Spoken like someone who as never visited the bottom of the barrel, which is peculiar for an Aggie fan.

We aren't even close to bottom of the barrel times. This team has more raw talent on it than the vast majority of A&M teams the last two decades. It's up to Fisher to get them to come together and win.

As for first round guys, probably none in 2024. But why is 1st round the only caveat? We need more overall draft picks in general. We can't keep hoping to win in the sec with 3-4 draft picks a year. I love how this stat leaves out that Sumlin had 3, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 5 guys drafted each year. He basically took over elite talents who were 1st round guys. But he built up zero depth on his teams, and that showed on draft day towards the end and the beginning of Fisher. Fisher has had 7, 4, 4, 3, and 2. We need more years where even if we don't get a 1st rounder, we get 7+ guys drafted rather than 3-4.

There is nothing wrong with 3rd, 5th, even 6th rounders. In fact, one might argue the lower picks shows development more so than the 1st round guys, who are almost always measurable guys. The 4th/5th round guys win you a TON of collegiate football games and are still in the top 5% of college football players. I don't know the exact names, but I could see a number of guys drafted in 2024. Though I hope we get some to stay, Moose, Layden, Fatheree/Foster, McKinnley, Raikes, Diggs, Cooper, Russell (likely reaching here), Demani, Grimes, DeBerry, could all be drafted. I could see closer to a 6-7 man draft class than 2-4 like we have most years under both Sumlin and Fisher. We still need to be closer to 10 year in and year out and are a long ways away from that point. Maybe in 2025, but again, keeping it up year after year..

2025 could be a lot of the 1st round guys, and a ton of overall picks. We all know the list of possibilities (Weigman, Stewart, many of the DL, Bryce Anderson, etc), but only time will tell as it's too early to predict.

My point was this stat started with Sumlin. People are pushing him over fisher with a stat that in reality actually tells you he made us far less talented by the time he left than when he took over. The first 3 years, Fisher was DOA in terms of high-end draft picks. Both in terms of Sumlin's draft capable guys dwindling, and transitioning during the first ever early signing day made it hard to recruit a quality 2018 class. Yes, we could have kept a guy like Tyree Wilson, but most of that class was a lost cause. Tons of injuries in it to top it off.

In reality, 2019 was the first class (the 2022 for early entries and 2023 draft for SRs) where fisher's numbers could start to show. So, we are looking at 1.5 years of data. Not 5.

Now that said, I wish he would have done a little better with the 2019/2020 classes, and Fisher's window is getting smaller and smaller to end this kind of talk. No doubt about that.

Texagsubscriber said:

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Leon has always had an inflated opinion of Leon.
Leon didn't get drafted. Leon didn't make a practice squad.
Leon didn't play in the XFL
Leon didn't play in the USFL. That's another 16 pro football teams that didn't want Leon.
TAMU wasn't the reason Leon didn't get drafted, Leon is

Whaler said:

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But, it's easier to blame others than to take responsibility.

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Do you think a coach making $90M should take any responsibility for having his players routinely declare early for the draft early despite not going very high, leaving the cupboard perpetually bare?

levypantsEOY said:

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Whaler said:

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But, it's easier to blame others than to take responsibility.

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Do you think a coach making $90M should take any responsibility for having his players routinely declare early for the draft early despite not going very high, leaving the cupboard perpetually bare?

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I seriously doubt A&M coaches are telling players they should declare early... its not in the coach's best interest -- they'd rather have good players come back.

P.U.T.U said:

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Same as Fran, same as Sumlin. Can't develop talent

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Its a university culture problem. The whole athletic apparatus needs a house cleaning and revamping. Changing coaches, athletic directors, TMF meddling, etc... has not worked in the sports that matter. Need a new business model with wholesale changes.

Thank you @CoachSumlin

51 Wins
25 @SEC Wins
12 Wins over ranked teams
10 All-Americans
7 1st Round Draft Picks
5 National Awards
1 #1 Overall Pick
1 Heisman Trophy#12thMan pic.twitter.com/EwamiCnjAN

— Texas A&M Football (@AggieFootball) November 26, 2017

The other thing we need to happen is have our less heralded guys that get drafted pan out, like D.Wilson, Clemons, A.Watts, J. Evans, etc. we get more output from those types and teams will start to believe our program is getting guys ready for the league. I feel like we will start seeing that soon as Fisher is getting better players, which will improve competition for spots and in the long run players that can impact teams.

Jimbo I'm the interview emphasized process a la Saban and his tree of coaches. I honestly think he's more of a recruiter than a developer but if he is learning how to channel Saban's detail-specific process orientation over all three phases due to adding Petrino (noting Ainias's comments from Sprimg Training) then we should see the better execution this fall that Jimbo has chirped about.

I'll note the hire was done to give him time to address all of the leftover cultural issues from Sumlin. The wheels coming off that happened with Fran, Sherman, and Sumlin is not exactly what caused the 5-7 season last year. We have discussed it and anyone using the "buck stops here" philosophy without considering differences between, say, 2020 and 2022 is like the proverbial ostrich with head in sand or proverbial lemming jumping off the cliff in droves.

That the vocal minority can successfully induce panic is just entertainment not truth, after all..,

misterguinness said:

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Early 2022
https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bears/nfl-mock-draft-2022

https://draftwire.usatoday.com/gallery/2022-nfl-mock-draft-2-rounds-spencer-rattler-kayvon-thibodeaux-derek-stingley-jr-sam-howell/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2945578-way-too-early-2022-nfl-mock-draft

Early 2023

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10040487-way-too-early-2023-nfl-mock-draft

https://draftwire.usatoday.com/lists/2023-nfl-mock-draft-2-rounds-cj-stroud-bryce-young-will-levis-anthony-richardson-will-anderson-jalen-carter/

Facts don't care about your feelings

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The fact is where they did, or didn't, get drafted...Sorry some Zurlein or other radio hack has a "mock" that's not worth the paper it's written on.

Did Myles drop?

Did Jake M. or Luke J. drop?

Kenyon G.? Germain I? Mike Evans? Johnny? Justin E? Eric M? Christian K?

These guys were 1st and 2nd round picks bc they had unbelievable talent...all while we didn't win championships. Very selective memory by Leon.

levypantsEOY said:

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Whaler said:

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But, it's easier to blame others than to take responsibility.

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Do you think a coach making $90M should take any responsibility for having his players routinely declare early for the draft early despite not going very high, leaving the cupboard perpetually bare?

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This may be the dumbest thing every written in the history of the internet. You really think our coaches are telling these guys that they absolutely should enter the draft early?

They are telling them where they need to get better and what the plan for that is going forward all while supporting them and whatever decision they and their family make.

wow Leon... really? is this the way to impress real professional teams?

WILD scene at end of Rattlers game. 5 Massachusetts players ejected with 32 seconds left. Players going into the stands... If a fan said something -- they need to be held accountable, but you can't charge the crowd in full pads. A kid in the front row looks to be crying?! pic.twitter.com/yqtjRKIjjn

— Cameron Cox (@CamCox12) July 3, 2023

KGP said:

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wow Leon... really? is this the way to impress real professional teams?

WILD scene at end of Rattlers game. 5 Massachusetts players ejected with 32 seconds left. Players going into the stands... If a fan said something -- they need to be held accountable, but you can't charge the crowd in full pads. A kid in the front row looks to be crying?! pic.twitter.com/yqtjRKIjjn

— Cameron Cox (@CamCox12) July 3, 2023

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Wow. Yeah, when it's you and another guy with equal measurables, the coaches are gonna look for a guy with this kind of passion. Lol. That might about do it for Leon.

Shame because he seemed like a leader.

When you bring in a bunch of "me" guys and try to turn them into "we" guys you gonna get a lot of that. Add the woke entitlement surrounded by a bunch of enablers and you get what you get.

Never mind that the inflated value is in most of those guys heads.

Yeah, Leon, it had nothing to do with you holding the team hostage and walking out on them when things weren't right for YOU. Yes, you came back but don't think notes weren't taken at that point.

Guys that keep their head down, work, excel, and shut up do just fine.

Ag in Tiger Country said:

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What's missing from discussion is the implication of NO DEVELOPMENT; after all, there were several players taken in the 1st round (who were lower rated HS recruits) from schools without championships that we routinely snub our noses at for being inferior programs: Tech-Tard, K-State, Iowa State, & TCU (magical season notwithstanding), all from the Big 12 no less. Leon's correct that "Championship Bias" is a thing, but it isn't the only factor; lack of player development, nonexistent program loyalty/ commitment (ie. staying for a SR/ Covid year), & the apparent lack of any meaningful counsel given to these young men (presumably to ensure vacancies & make way for 5 star 'saviors' in the fold) when an extra year of play would likely improve their draft stock are just a few of the issues plaguing our program, as such definitely impacts the overall win/ loss record!!

It's very saddening & certainly alarming, especially if OU & tu get their houses in order in time for SEC play.

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I agree with the lack of development. Auburn is the only other program that comes to mind where guys repetitively come out of the program the same, or with slightly better skills than when they came in. I know there are individuals that are exceptions to this rule, Mike Evans, et al. Skill growth, is the biggest problem with the program.
With that said, why would an extra year in the program make them more draft worthy? You and I agree that the development is trash; so they aren't getting any better...potentially worse in many cases. If team loyalty was a thing, these guys that use the transfer portal wouldn't get drafted. I haven't heard anything from any scout or front office personnel that puts loyalty above on-field talent. Maybe it is an accoutrement to the overall package, but that doesn't explain the overwhelming lack of success at the next level.
The problem I see is that these guys are hearing about their projected draft stock in their freshman and sophmore years, based upon "normal growth potential within the program". Unfortunately, THIS program's growth potential has been ******ed for so long, we have become delusional about what a player should look like from year one to year three. I think most of us look around the room in bewilderment when most of these juniors declare. "You sure 'bout that..?"
And OU has set themselves up with a serious commitment pipeline for the next couple of years. I don't care about the sips. I hope the homeless eat their city alive.
Happy 'Merica Day!

That is ******ed that you can't use the word ******ed.

verb (used with object)
to make slow; delay the development or progress of (an action, process, etc.); hinder or impede.

Total non-sense.

If any of these guys are great they will get a second contract, the rookie contract between a 2nd and 4rth is nothing.

The combine has measurables mental and physical skills it means more than a ring.
Marv dropped because he was arrested just before the draft and he is an odd fit for the NFL

Buddy was given playing time in Pittsburgh and I am sorry he was not an NFL linebacker that starts, he got cut.
I like Buddy hoped he'd be great but the reality he was not good enough to keep a job on a team desperate for a linebacker and riddled with injuries in that position.

The first 21 picks in 2023 had Iowa Iowa ST TCU Oregon MS St NW IL not all GA and AL.

The real lesson is get a degree they call the NFL - Not For Long and wake up to the reality only 2 percent of college football players ever get an NFL contract and those that do, very few see a second offer.

Winning a title won't change your speed and athleticism, I am sorry so many have been sold a get rich scheme that rarely works out.

BigDave21 said:

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He is right about the winning championships part. We simply don't win anything meaningful.

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FIFY

W said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Same as Fran, same as Sumlin. Can't develop talent

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hold on now...

Sumlin had 7 first round picks and 3 second round picks

Jimbo thru 5 years...has only had 1 first round pick and 1 second round pick

it's not even close

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Look at who Sumlin got drafted though - every single one of them (or almost all of them anyway, not going back to check) weren't guys he recruited. They were Sherman guys, mostly linemen.

Jimbo had Sumlin guys to work with his first 5 years. They didn't start the same. The good news is that the "sumlin's recruits" excuse is done now, and Jimbo is working with all guys he brought in - so nobody he can point the finger at.

But across the board...the level of talent we have now is an order of magnitude better than what we had under Sumlin.

And honestly, how guys do in the NFL draft and beyond is little more than a bonus IMO. Not Jimbo's concern - his concern is winning college games and college titles. Beyond that it isn't his concern at all, outside of being able to use it for recruiting to win college titles.

Where else did he have offers from ? UGa players become NFL players because at the age of 17 they had already proven themselves to ge among the best in the country

UGa did a good lob of keeping them on track but your offer sheet is a pretty good indicator of your chances to play in the League

KGP said:

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Texagsubscriber said:

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Leon has always had an inflated opinion of Leon.
Leon didn't get drafted. Leon didn't make a practice squad.
Leon didn't play in the XFL
Leon didn't play in the USFL. That's another 16 pro football teams that didn't want Leon.
TAMU wasn't the reason Leon didn't get drafted, Leon is

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Yep. We liked him because he played early and often, and was always there. Taking a step back and removing bias, he was just an OK college safety. It's easy to mistake experience and a guy's long-term presence on a roster in a starting role as inflated talent.

But Leon plays in the IFL and is now suspended indefinitely for going after a fan in the stands. Doubtful that he will ever sniff the NFL.

TX_Aggie37 said:

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KGP said:

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Texagsubscriber said:

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Leon has always had an inflated opinion of Leon.
Leon didn't get drafted. Leon didn't make a practice squad.
Leon didn't play in the XFL
Leon didn't play in the USFL. That's another 16 pro football teams that didn't want Leon.
TAMU wasn't the reason Leon didn't get drafted, Leon is

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Yep. We liked him because he played early and often, and was always there. Taking a step back and removing bias, he was just an OK college safety. It's easy to mistake experience and a guy's long-term presence on a roster in a starting role as inflated talent.

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We do this quite often with our players who seem to start longer than they should.

agwin12 said:

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But Leon plays in the IFL and is now suspended indefinitely for going after a fan in the stands. Doubtful that he will ever sniff the NFL.

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Not very bright.

Sq 17 said:

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Where else did he have offers from ? UGa players become NFL players because at the age of 17 they had already proven themselves to ge among the best in the country

UGa did a good lob of keeping them on track but your offer sheet is a pretty good indicator of your chances to play in the League

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He was a pretty big get for us at the time. He had offers from Bama, Georgia, Clemson, etc.