If nobody got to Bo Nix's fumble and it went through the end zone it would still have been a touchback A&M Football, but what if Michael Clemons booted it through the end zone. Would it have been a touchback Auburn football?

See rules that applied to 2018 A&M vs Clemson when the ball magically went inside the pylon.

If Clemons picked up the ball then fumbled before he crossed the goal,line and the ball went out of the end zone, it's Auburns ball on the 20. If he never gained possession it would be a safety. He did gain possession and crossed the goal line so it was a TD. Once he carried the ball into the end zone the play was over. Even a fumble then wouldn't matter.

No. Unless he gained full control and then Re-fumbled, it would still have been a touchback.

Not a touchback, a safety.

Good explanation. I think OP is wondering one more thing though. If Clemons were to do his best Leon impression and boot the ball into the 5th row instead of possessing it, it's a safety, right?

Interesting thing came up in the Cowboy game....punt was blocked, then touched by a receiving team player past the line of scrimmage. Punting team recovered the ball short of the first down line to gain.

Ball was awarded to punting team, first down.

I can see awarding the ball to the punting team, but since it was short of the line to gain and the receiving team had not taken possession, seems like it should be a turnover on downs.

Also, not being able to advance a muffed punt is ridiculous.

Alpha Texan said:

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Good explanation. I think OP is wondering one more thing though. If Clemons were to do his best Leon impression and boot the ball into the 5th row instead of possessing it, it's a safety, right?

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Wtf Alpha?

Where da shades?

Give the people what they want

Alpha Texan said:

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Good explanation. I think OP is wondering one more thing though. If Clemons were to do his best Leon impression and boot the ball into the 5th row instead of possessing it, it's a safety, right?

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Intentionally kicking a fumbled ball is a 10 yard penalty. I don't believe it has an automatic first down component.

Like if a punter loses control of the ball in the end zone, they can kick the ball out of the end zone, resulting in a safety and a 10 yard penalty, rather than leaving it open to a potential touchdown.

AggieDub04 is correct. The impetus for the ball being in the end zone was Nix's fumble.

If Clemons would have kicked the ball toward the end zone it is a spot foul for kicking. Player can't intentionally kick a ball in any direction. Would be 10 yards from the spot of the foul and Auburn's ball. Will have to get out my old rule book to study about kicking in the end zone and Where the enforcement spot would be.

I figured there might be a rule like that. Thanks!

Mesquite Bean said:

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If Clemons would have kicked the ball toward the end zone it is a spot foul for kicking. Player can't intentionally kick a ball in any direction. Would be 10 yards from the spot of the foul and Auburn's ball. Will have to get out my old rule book to study about kicking in the end zone and Where the enforcement spot would be.

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Illegally kicking ball is enforced from the spot of kick.

But must be an intentional act. Incidental kicking is nothing.

TyperWoods said:

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Interesting thing came up in the Cowboy game....punt was blocked, then touched by a receiving team player past the line of scrimmage. Punting team recovered the ball short of the first down line to gain.

Ball was awarded to punting team, first down.

I can see awarding the ball to the punting team, but since it was short of the line to gain and the receiving team had not taken possession, seems like it should be a turnover on downs.

Also, not being able to advance a muffed punt is ridiculous.

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It's like any punt; Once the ball crosses the line of scrimmage on a punt, if the receiving team touches it but doesn't possess it, if the kicking team then possesses it it is their ball; same as if the punt returner drops it then the kicking team recovers it. Kicking teams ball at the door of the recovery

That's why players are coached on
Punt blocks to avoid the ball if it crosses the line of scrimmage

There's only one rule around here

Rule #1

And you failed miserably.

Try again.

The point was what happens if the defensive player kicks the ball while standing in the end zone. The spot of the foul would be in the end zone and yardage is not marked from the end zone.

I'm not 100%, but fairly confident that it would be a touchback and a new set of downs.

hph6203 said:

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The point was what happens if the defensive player kicks the ball while standing in the end zone. The spot of the foul would be in the end zone and yardage is not marked from the end zone.

I'm not 100%, but fairly confident that it would be a touchback and a new set of downs.

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Defensive player kicks it out his own end zone is a safety. Out opponents endzone would be enforced from end of run I believe.

hph6203 said:

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The point was what happens if the defensive player kicks the ball while standing in the end zone. The spot of the foul would be in the end zone and yardage is not marked from the end zone.

I'm not 100%, but fairly confident that it would be a touchback and a new set of downs.

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Could never be a touchback unless a declined penalty occurred.

bigjag19 said:

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hph6203 said:

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The point was what happens if the defensive player kicks the ball while standing in the end zone. The spot of the foul would be in the end zone and yardage is not marked from the end zone.

I'm not 100%, but fairly confident that it would be a touchback and a new set of downs.

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Defensive player kicks it out his own end zone is a safety. Out opponents endzone would be enforced from end of run I believe.

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If a defensive player kicks it out of his own end zone it's a penalty from the spot of the fumble. This happened in the NFL not too long ago.



The other scenario from the OP is actually a 10 yard penalty from the previous spot and a new set of downs.

I was wrong about the penalty not including an automatic first down, it does.

Quote:

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Section 4: Illegal Bats and Kicks Article 1: Illegal Bat. It is an illegal bat if:
(a) a player of either team bats or punches a loose ball in the field of play toward his opponent's goal line; or
(b) a player of either team bats or punches a loose ball (that has touched the ground) in any direction, if it is in either end zone; or
(c) an offensive player bats a backward pass in flight toward his opponent's goal line.
Penalty: For illegal batting or punching the ball: Loss of 10 yards. For enforcement, treat as a foul during a backward pass or fumble (see 8-7-7). If the foul is by the defense, it is an automatic first down.
Article 2: Legal Bat. A forward pass in flight may be tipped, batted, or deflected in any direction by any eligible player at any time.
Note: If a forward pass that is controlled by a player prior to completing the catch is thrown forward, it is an illegal bat. If it is caught by a teammate or intercepted by an opponent, the ball remains alive. If it is not caught, the ball is dead when it hits the ground.
Article 3: Illegally Kicking Ball. No player may deliberately kick a loose ball or a ball that is in a player's possession.
Penalty: For illegally kicking the ball: Loss of 10 yards. If by Team A before possession changes during a scrimmage down: Loss of down and loss of 10 yards. For enforcement, treat as a foul during a backward pass or fumble (see 8-7-7). If the foul is by the defense, it is an automatic first down.
SUPPLEMENTAL NOTES
1) If a loose ball is unintentionally touched by any part of a player's leg (including the knee), it is not considered kicking and is treated as touching.
2) If the penalty for an illegal bat or kick is declined, the procedure is the same as though the ball had been muffed. However, if the act (impetus) sends the ball behind a goal line, 3-15-3 applies.
3) The penalty for Articles 1 and 3 does not preclude a penalty for a palpably unfair act. See Palpably Unfair Act (12-3-3).
4) The ball is not dead when an illegal kick is recovered.
A.R. 12.15 Second-and-15 on A2. Quarterback A1 fumbles a snap in the end zone. While the ball is loose on the ground there, A1 deliberately kicksit.TheballislasttouchedbyB1beforegoingoutofboundsonA's2-yardline.
Ruling: Safety. See 8-7-3-Item 3-c and 11-5-1.

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Rule 8-7-7:

Quote:

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Article 7 Enforcement Spot During a Backward Pass or Fumble. When a foul occurs during a backward pass or fumble, the basic spot of enforcement is the spot of the backward pass or fumble
Exceptions:
(a) Behind the Line. When the spot of the backward pass or fumble is behind the line (including in A's end zone), if either team fouls, the spot of enforcement is the previous spot, even if B's foul is in A's end zone. If Team A fouls in its own end zone during a backward pass or fumble, the enforcement of the penalty results in a safety.
(b) Beyond the Line. When the spot of the backward pass or fumble is beyond the line, and the spot of an offensive foul is behind the spot of the backward pass or fumble:
(i) If the foul occurs beyond the line of scrimmage, the spot of enforcement is the spot of the foul; or
(ii) If the foul occurs behind the line of scrimmage, the spot of enforcement is the previous spot; or
(iii) If the spot of the foul is in A's end zone, enforcement of the foul results in a safety.
(c) For enforcement when the offense commits a personal foul or unsportsmanlike foul prior to the recovery by the defense of a backward pass or fumble, see Section 6, Article 3 above.
A.R. 8.67
A.R. 8.68
A.R. 8.69
First-and-10 on A40. Runner A1 advances to the 50 where he passes backward. During the

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That's not the college rule book.

Wait, we're doing a hypothetical that Clemons kicked it 25 yards off the ground?

But why is this in your head?

Having said that, had your scenario happened against Bama, it would have been a Tide touchdown. It's not in the rulebook but that is irrelevant.

There's not a substantial difference between NFL and college rule books. They sure as **** don't award a safety to a player that commits a penalty against a team driving towards a touchdown. I'm sorry, you're just wrong on that.

ETA: Emoji was not intentional

hph6203 said:

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There's not a substantial difference between NFL and college rule books. They sure as **** don't award a safety to a player that commits a penalty against a team driving towards a touchdown. I'm sorry, you're just wrong on that perspective.

ETA: Emoji was not intentional

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I was giving the various hypotheticals. If a loose ball in the field of play is kicked into your own endzone, it could be a safety by declining the penalty.

No one would ever decline a penalty in that scenario. It would be a loss of possession, points to the opposing team, and possession to the opposing team. The alternative is a new set of downs and a 10 yard penalty. It would be total idiocy.

hph6203 said:

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No one would ever decline a penalty in that scenario. It would be a loss of possession, points to the opposing team, and possession to the opposing team. The alternative is a new set of downs and a 10 yard penalty. It would be total idiocy.

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Not what I said.

If a defender kicks the ball into his own end zone and out of bounds, the result of the play is a safety. Accepting the penalty means the offense would likely have exceptional field position though. It becomes a question of what you need in that scenario. 2 points plus the ball back or strong chance at TD.

Absent a penalty the ball traveling through the defense's end zone is a touchback, not a safety. The offense would accept the penalty 100% of the time, retain possession, get the yardage and attempt a field goal or go for a touchdown.

For what you're suggesting the offense would have to fumble the ball, the defense would have to retain possession, the defense would have to subsequently fumble the ball, and then kick the ball out of the end zone, then it becomes a safety.

There is no way for the defense to be assessed a safety without obtaining possession.

hph6203 said:

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Absent a penalty the ball traveling through the defense's end zone is a touchback, not a safety. The offense would accept the penalty 100% of the time, retain possession, get the yardage and attempt a field goal or go for a touchdown.

For what you're suggesting the offense would have to fumble the ball, the defense would have to retain possession, the defense would have to subsequently fumble the ball, and then kick the ball out of the end zone, then it becomes a safety.

There is no way for the defense to be assessed a safety without obtaining possession.

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Under NCAA rules, if a team INTENTIONALLY kicks a live ball not on a tee (free kick) or being held for a place kick (free kick) or legal scrimmage kick according to those particular rules, they have committed a foul. If either team so kicks a ball from the field of play through THEIR OWN end zone, it would be a SAFETY, not a touchback as the kick results in a new impetus on the ball. Team A could be on the 5 yard line going in, fumble, and Team B could, for whatever reason, decide to kick the ball from the 3 (let's say) through the back of that end zone. That is a safety. Why he'd do that, I'll never know, but that would be the result of the play. But the defense is not required to gain possession in order to put an impetus on the ball in the form of an intentional kick. There's no definition of touchback that includes the scenario you're talking about here, thus it has to be a safety.

If its an accidental kick, yes, in that case, it would result in a touchback as the kick itself would not result in a new impetus on the ball. But it would also not be a foul. In this case, they would be required to gain possession as you say.

In the above case of a foul, Team A may or may not want the safety. It depends on the score and game situation. If they accept the result of the play, they get 2 points and line up to receive a free kick (from the 20). If they accept the penalty, its half the distance from the spot of the kick, but no auto first down. I may need to double check the enforcement spot -- its at the very end of Rule 9. If they are down 5 under 2 minutes, they'll take the penalty; if not, they'll take the result of the play.

In all fairness, you bring up an interesting scenario. Some might argue that what I wrote in the first paragraph about the kick and impetus is only true given a foul. In other words, it isn't a safety without the illegal kick, thus a foul. If that's your point, its a fair point, but I don't agree. Rule 8-7-2 talks about initial and new impetus and makes clear that kicks impart impetus -- initial and new (in other words, the kick creates AND changes it). It doesn't make a distinction about whether the kick is a legal or illegal kick. It does, however, make a distinction about WHO kicked the ball.

If you're saying they have the option of a safety then maybe that's true, but even in the scenario you described the offensive team wouldn't accept the safety. They'd accept the safety only if they were down by multiple possessions, or if the safety would result in a lead change, or maybe if the safety would result in a tie game, that would be a pretty weak ass decision and I don't think the analytics would agree with it in most scenarios.

I was blinded by what the actual result of the play is likely to be.

An unintentional/incidental bat or kick into your own end zone does not result in a safety. At least not in the NFL. That may be different if the ball direction is changed. For example in the below video if the ball bounced back up field and the receiving team changed its direction back towards their own end zone. I'm not sure.

Unintentional or incidental, as you call them, kicks/bats are not covered by NCAA (I don't know NFL rules, but I assume they're similar) rules and do not change the status of the ball as it relates to impetus. I was strictly speaking in terms of a kick that is a foul. NFL may be different as it relates to what constitutes a foul; for NCAA rules, the kick must be ruled intentional.

There are actually two types of kicks that are not legal and result in fouls under NCAA rules. An "illegal kick" is one, and "illegally kicking the ball" is another. Kicking a loose ball is an example of the latter. Punting beyond the line of scrimmage, a "return kick" (punting after receiving a punt), and kicking a free kick in an illegal manner, are illegal kicks.