Dario said:

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Jim Turner has been with us since 2016 if I recall correctly, but our O-Line is still garbage. What is exactly the problem with this? My guts tell me that it's Turner's fault, but if there are significant factors that heavily imply that he's not at fault at the very least, I'd love to hear them.

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The offensive linemen are doing an adequate job of protecting the QB. They were recruited for a more pass happy system and Jimbo is needing more versatile pro style O-linemen that can also move the line of scrimmage and win trench battles so we can run the ball more.

Our o-line is doing the best they can to convert over and do things they were never taught to do under Sumlin and fill a roll that until 9 months ago they were never asked to fill.

That being said, the pass protection has been fine. So give that tired "Our o-line sucks ass and is the source of ALL the offense's problems" routine a rest.

They are no more or less dysfunctional than the rest of the team right now- and while much improved from last year the team is still recovering from the dumpster fire Sumlin left behind.

Our DB's routinely fall asleep in coverage. our LB depth is ***** Our QB is spastic and when he chooses to deliver a ball accurately it is often late or misses the open window. Our RB's lack a punishing bruiser and in short yardage situations Jimbo's offense is designed to utilize a fullback- which we don't have. Our starting kicker is out and the backup seems to need to get 2-3 misses under his belt every game before he can find the space between the uprights. Our recievers are beat to hell, and can't seem to make the difficult catches when needed.

Our D-line is good and doesn't have any glaring holes but that is the only area of team that doesn't need serious work.

So give the o-line a break.

aeon-ag said:

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I've read two different pro sports articles speaking to the problem of Sumlin coached drafted A&M linemen, saying they were not coached in technique.

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No Sumlin coached players were not coached in technique.

There was some random troll a month or so ago that would do the whole "me, i've blah blah blah" at the end of their posts. Guess you found a new person to pretend to be.

AggieRob93 said:

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bv86ag said:

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Jim Turner recruited some of the highest drafted OL in history under Sherman. And some of them played as recently as 2012-13.
Joeckel, Matthews, and several others during that time frame.

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You sure this wasn't actually due to Mike Sherman, and not necessarily Jim Turner?

Was Sherman the guy with the eye for O-linemen? I'm beginning to think he was, based on the poor OL play over the past 2-1/2 seasons that Turner has been back, though I still hold out hope the OL play has been more a factor of Sumlin's recruiting than Turner's coaching ability.

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correct. Sherman was an O-Line guru. That was his expertise

Cool story, but our O-line is dead last in sacks given up and we can't run the ball right now

Ags4DaWin said:

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Dario said:

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Jim Turner has been with us since 2016 if I recall correctly, but our O-Line is still garbage. What is exactly the problem with this? My guts tell me that it's Turner's fault, but if there are significant factors that heavily imply that he's not at fault at the very least, I'd love to hear them.

---

The offensive linemen are doing an adequate job of protecting the QB. They were recruited for a more pass happy system and Jimbo is needing more versatile pro style O-linemen that can also move the line of scrimmage and win trench battles so we can run the ball more.

Our o-line is doing the best they can to convert over and do things they were never taught to do under Sumlin and fill a roll that until 9 months ago they were never asked to fill.

That being said, the pass protection has been fine. So give that tired "Our o-line sucks ass and is the source of ALL the offense's problems" routine a rest.

They are no more or less dysfunctional than the rest of the team right now- and while much improved from last year the team is still recovering from the dumpster fire Sumlin left behind.

Our DB's routinely fall asleep in coverage. our LB depth is ***** Our QB is spastic and when he chooses to deliver a ball accurately it is often late or misses the open window. Our RB's lack a punishing bruiser and in short yardage situations Jimbo's offense is designed to utilize a fullback- which we don't have. Our starting kicker is out and the backup seems to need to get 2-3 misses under his belt every game before he can find the space between the uprights. Our recievers are beat to hell, and can't seem to make the difficult catches when needed.

Our D-line is good and doesn't have any glaring holes but that is the only area of team that doesn't need serious work.

So give the o-line a break.

---

Our pass protection is not fine.

veryoldcoach said:

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First a little background. I'm a retired football coach having coached at several Texas high schools leaving coaching from one of the 3 or 4 schools in this state that have over 6 state championships to their credit. Also I'm an Aggie to the core, having had my first visit to Kyle Field in 1951. I need to ask a favor of the learned scholars who leave messages on this board. Please refrain for attacking our own players on a personal level by calling them "garbage"and such names. If there is one thing thing that they are not it is garbage. Also, please refrain from insulting the coaches on a personal level. Very few, if any, of you have any understanding of what it takes to be a coach or player for that matter. I've been disappointed by Aggie football more times than I can count. For example, I took it real hard when we lost to Rice in 1957 knocking A&M out of the #1 position in the polls. Talk about a shot in the gut! But you know what, John David Crow, Gene Stallings, Charlie Kruger and all of the rest of that team were not garbage. That game was a real downer. It was as much a downer as the 1955 game with Rice was an upper. We scored 3 touchdowns and 3 EP in a little over 2 minutes remaining in the game to win 21 to 12. A guy named Lloyd Taylor scored all the TDs and kicked all the EPs.

My point is this. There are ups and downs to football. Big ups and big downs. You can argue all you want about what what is wrong and what is right. But, when you name call or attack on a personal level you cross the line of civility. You may think Kellen Mond doesn't measure up to your standards, but you really have no idea of what being on that field is like and you never will. As for Coach Turner, he has forgotten more football than you're ever going to know ever in your life.

As for Coach Fisher, I had concerns at first, but slowly I've become a fan. I can assure any of you he is the real deal in my opinion. I would love to see any of you try to keep up with him. One thing is also sure. The Aggies put their money where their mouth is.

Let the flaming begin. Me, I've got to get ready for Auburn.

GIG 'EM

---

Southlake Carroll High School?

Dario said:

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Jim Turner has been with us since 2016 if I recall correctly, but our O-Line is still garbage. What is exactly the problem with this? My guts tell me that it's Turner's fault, but if there are significant factors that heavily imply that he's not at fault at the very least, I'd love to hear them.

---

Lanfear, Sutherland and McCoy were recruited prior to Jim Turner's return by Dave Christenson and Jeff Banks. All of them were 4 stars according to most recruiting sites except McCoy who was a 2 or 3 star depending on the site. Sutherland was an Army All American and should not have played as a true freshman. Some of these guys have never lived up to the 4 star billing.

The state has produced some overvalued OL prospects for the last decade and the wide use of the spread offense is one of the main culprits because it is more passive as far as blocking with two point stances, back peddling and not having to hold blocks as long. I don't think it is all attitude either.

I really believe recruiting experts have a hard time rating some of the state of Texas high school offensive lineman that play in high octane offenses against inferior defensive talent especially in Central or South Texas compared to the states in the Southeast where the talent level might be more even across a county or district. tu has had the same problem since at least 2009. Mack Brown complained about it and tried to change their offense along with Muschamp and it failed miserably.

Since Jim Turner's return, his recruiting class have gotten better and better each year. Lugenbill said after last year's signing class that A&M's OL class was one of the best if not the best in the country when asked about what team had a sleeper class that no one was talking about nationally. I would expect to see some modest improvement next year and at the end of next year evaluate him. FSU's OL coach (Trickett) was worse than Turner and the FSU fans wanted him gone long ago so I'm glad that Turner was retained.

We definitely need quicker big body types which are not a dime a dozen.

Correct it was the Dave Christianson experiment that royally screwed our OLine....

Veteran coach who wanted to be OC and was pissed he was working under Spav, and the 2 butted heads and Christiansen was undermining spav the entire time. Spav sucked but Christiansen was waaaaay worse.

Turner was kept because he wanted to utilize TE, he wants to run a pro style (where he and Mazzone butted heads), and he wanted to hand pick 3-5 OL (something he didn't have as much control over and had to get approval from Sumlin as I understand it - also why we locked up OL recruits through 2020) a year (helps when every single former player vouched for turner as a coach).

Texas A&M has had 6 OL drafted into the NFL since 2013 with 4 in the 1st round.

Why can't A&M recruit the best OL?

aggieaviator said:

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Texas A&M has had 6 OL drafted into the NFL since 2013 with 4 in the 1st round.

Why can't A&M recruit the best OL?

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Turner left, Dave Christiansen ruined our OLine recruiting and Sumlin didn't prioritize our OLine the way he should have.

Also we ran a scheme that isn't pro friendly, Sumlin royally missed a golden opportunity to lock down OLine commits as OLine U and instead we've turned into Punter/kicker U

while i don't think our OL is great, i don't think it's as terrible as many make it to be. We play in the best conference (by far top to bottom). Our OL would look a lot better in any other conference.... But yes by SEC standards, we have some opportunity, i think we're middle of the pack OL in SEC... which isn't terrible, but doesn't win championships either.

I blame the Matthews family.

They needed to have another five or six boys 18-22 years ago.

Quote:

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The Aggies put their money where their mouth is.

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No we don't. Our spending is much higher than our mouth. We are satisfied being mediocre but pay like we win championships.

Quote:

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Oh man. It's amazing how you already know this. That JAG Layden Robinson whooped up on a couple of 4 star DL in 1 on 1s this summer right in front of our staff.

To think we are settling is ridiculous. Jimbo signed off on all of them. There are only a handful of Kenyon Greens around the country any year.

Here's the deal. Turner might have been here a while, but the oldest guy he recruited on the roster is a Sophomore. He inhereted a 5 person class and couldn't add to it when he first got here. His first class are true sophomores recruiting off a dead man walking program in Sumin and shouldn't be playing much yet. They should be RS FR waiting their turn. But again, we don't have anyone better, so because of that we are playing 5 three star OL with 4 of them being sophomores. .

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yep, not to mention sumlion had turner coaching them to a s read hurry up scheme, which is not turner's thing

Dario said:

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Agvet12 said:

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Dario said:

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Texagsubscriber said:

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Turner Specials. He has got to find those underrated guys. 4/5 of our oline are three stars or lower. Only McCoy looks like he is panning out.

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Isn't that more of Sumlin not being able to recruit O-linemen well enough? I'm not sure how well Sherman recruited them because from my knowledge, our O-lines were great back in those days.

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Correct, we recruited for a spread offense where it's lighter lineman for pass pro... we beefed them up for run blocking and our mobility has turned to *****

Add to the fact that we whiffed on lineman since 2012 and it just adds to the problem. Thankfully we recruited a few studs last year and have more able bodied folks coming in.

I think you'll see our lineman starters shake it up next year when our RS guys become elligble freshman. Especially with Blanton and Mathews pushing for a starting job after coming in 2018 recruiting class

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Hopefully that is the case. Ngl, I'm on the "Jim Turner was only kept because there was no other candidates available" camp atm. I'd love to be proven wrong and see those guys become difference makers next year.

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One of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted on here.

Quote:

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I don't know much about the OL but from what I can tell we are just slow as hell at the tackle positions. Green was getting burned all night Saturday. A couple plays didn't even get a hand on the left end. The side that usually has the slower rusher.

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yep, it's because we don't have any true tackles so we have guys who are better suited to play guard, playing tackle

Champ Bailey said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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Dario said:

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Jim Turner has been with us since 2016 if I recall correctly, but our O-Line is still garbage. What is exactly the problem with this? My guts tell me that it's Turner's fault, but if there are significant factors that heavily imply that he's not at fault at the very least, I'd love to hear them.

---

The offensive linemen are doing an adequate job of protecting the QB. They were recruited for a more pass happy system and Jimbo is needing more versatile pro style O-linemen that can also move the line of scrimmage and win trench battles so we can run the ball more.

Our o-line is doing the best they can to convert over and do things they were never taught to do under Sumlin and fill a roll that until 9 months ago they were never asked to fill.

That being said, the pass protection has been fine. So give that tired "Our o-line sucks ass and is the source of ALL the offense's problems" routine a rest.

They are no more or less dysfunctional than the rest of the team right now- and while much improved from last year the team is still recovering from the dumpster fire Sumlin left behind.

Our DB's routinely fall asleep in coverage. our LB depth is ***** Our QB is spastic and when he chooses to deliver a ball accurately it is often late or misses the open window. Our RB's lack a punishing bruiser and in short yardage situations Jimbo's offense is designed to utilize a fullback- which we don't have. Our starting kicker is out and the backup seems to need to get 2-3 misses under his belt every game before he can find the space between the uprights. Our recievers are beat to hell, and can't seem to make the difficult catches when needed.

Our D-line is good and doesn't have any glaring holes but that is the only area of team that doesn't need serious work.

So give the o-line a break.

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Our pass protection is not fine.

---

Yeah it is. It is adequate for the plays being called and I have given extensive reasons in other threads showing that it is. Is it stellar? No. But Jimbo knows this and they plan their game plan around it to give Mond and the o-line the best chance of success...which is why our offense runs a lot of pass plays designed to get underneath the zone coverage and expose over aggressive pressure schemes.

Look at the film review with McGee that was posted recently and he explains very well why Mond is "under so much pressure".

Mond is hesitating to release the ball. Hitches 3-5 times before each throw...and pass plays designed for the ball to be released in 2-3 seconds are not being released until the 4 second mark.

It throws off the reciever's timing, causes Mond to miss he open window in coverage, allows he zone to collapse on the reciever, and exposes himself to pressure unnecessarily.

But hey what do I know?
I just come to the debate with facts. You totally proved me wrong with that 6 worded sentence of football wisdom.

Ags4DaWin said:

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Champ Bailey said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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Dario said:

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Jim Turner has been with us since 2016 if I recall correctly, but our O-Line is still garbage. What is exactly the problem with this? My guts tell me that it's Turner's fault, but if there are significant factors that heavily imply that he's not at fault at the very least, I'd love to hear them.

---

The offensive linemen are doing an adequate job of protecting the QB. They were recruited for a more pass happy system and Jimbo is needing more versatile pro style O-linemen that can also move the line of scrimmage and win trench battles so we can run the ball more.

Our o-line is doing the best they can to convert over and do things they were never taught to do under Sumlin and fill a roll that until 9 months ago they were never asked to fill.

That being said, the pass protection has been fine. So give that tired "Our o-line sucks ass and is the source of ALL the offense's problems" routine a rest.

They are no more or less dysfunctional than the rest of the team right now- and while much improved from last year the team is still recovering from the dumpster fire Sumlin left behind.

Our DB's routinely fall asleep in coverage. our LB depth is ***** Our QB is spastic and when he chooses to deliver a ball accurately it is often late or misses the open window. Our RB's lack a punishing bruiser and in short yardage situations Jimbo's offense is designed to utilize a fullback- which we don't have. Our starting kicker is out and the backup seems to need to get 2-3 misses under his belt every game before he can find the space between the uprights. Our recievers are beat to hell, and can't seem to make the difficult catches when needed.

Our D-line is good and doesn't have any glaring holes but that is the only area of team that doesn't need serious work.

So give the o-line a break.

---

Our pass protection is not fine.

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Yeah it is. It is adequate for the plays being called and I have given extensive reasons in other threads showing that it is. Is it stellar? No. But Jimbo knows this and they plan their game plan around it to give Mond and the o-line the best chance of success...which is why our offense runs a lot of pass plays designed to get underneath the zone coverage and expose over aggressive pressure schemes.

Look at the film review with McGee that was posted recently and he explains very well why Mond is "under so much pressure".

Mond is hesitating to release the ball. Hitches 3-5 times before each throw...and pass plays designed for the ball to be released in 2-3 seconds are not being released until the 4 second mark.

It throws off the reciever's timing, causes Mond to miss he open window in coverage, allows he zone to collapse on the reciever, and exposes himself to pressure unnecessarily.

But hey what do I know?
I just come to the debate with facts. You totally proved me wrong with that 6 worded sentence of football wisdom.

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Well buddy, you might be on to something.

While I think Mond is doing well enough all things considered - I'd like to point out that Jimbo did not recruit him while at FLst even with him playing HS ball right in his back yard

Ultimately, Jimbo has changed the system and Turner is now tasked with changing the style of play than he recruited under summy, and will have to recruit different going forward

Talent

merch said:

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Talent

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Exactly....OL recruiting has been weak in the sumlin years...too many projects and not enough high end talent...greg little was a huge miss and now we are stuck with piss poor dan moore....hopefully we can hold onto kenyon green...he should be our star left tackle of the future.

OldShadeOfBlue said:

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I don't know much about the OL but from what I can tell we are just slow as hell at the tackle positions. Green was getting burned all night Saturday. A couple plays didn't even get a hand on the left end. The side that usually has the slower rusher.

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The tackles are a big problem and while Green is a stud coming in next year, he projects inside long term. We need a couple of athletic tackles.

Quote:

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Calm down old man. It is a game.

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A game to who? For the coach it's their profession.

Calling a coach garbage is absurd, especially when 95% of the time it's a dumb dumb on an internet message board who isn't nearly as good at their own profession as the head coach is at theirs or for that matter coming remotely close to understanding the complexity of whatever they're currently calling a coach garbage for (in this case transitioning a spread offensive line to a pro set offense).

Coaches should absolutely be criticized, but the amount of inflammatory, asinine posts that you see in the ~5 days after a loss should be discouraged just as this old coach was doing. The posts that occur in the days after we lose in this era make me embarrassed to be an Aggie at times.

Cynic said:

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Quote:

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The Aggies put their money where their mouth is.

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No we don't. Our spending is much higher than our mouth. We are satisfied being mediocre but pay like we win championships.

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Username checks out.

veryoldcoach said:

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First a little background. I'm a retired football coach having coached at several Texas high schools leaving coaching from one of the 3 or 4 schools in this state that have over 6 state championships to their credit. Also I'm an Aggie to the core, having had my first visit to Kyle Field in 1951. I need to ask a favor of the learned scholars who leave messages on this board. Please refrain for attacking our own players on a personal level by calling them "garbage"and such names. If there is one thing thing that they are not it is garbage. Also, please refrain from insulting the coaches on a personal level. Very few, if any, of you have any understanding of what it takes to be a coach or player for that matter. I've been disappointed by Aggie football more times than I can count. For example, I took it real hard when we lost to Rice in 1957 knocking A&M out of the #1 position in the polls. Talk about a shot in the gut! But you know what, John David Crow, Gene Stallings, Charlie Kruger and all of the rest of that team were not garbage. That game was a real downer. It was as much a downer as the 1955 game with Rice was an upper. We scored 3 touchdowns and 3 EP in a little over 2 minutes remaining in the game to win 21 to 12. A guy named Lloyd Taylor scored all the TDs and kicked all the EPs.

My point is this. There are ups and downs to football. Big ups and big downs. You can argue all you want about what what is wrong and what is right. But, when you name call or attack on a personal level you cross the line of civility. You may think Kellen Mond doesn't measure up to your standards, but you really have no idea of what being on that field is like and you never will. As for Coach Turner, he has forgotten more football than you're ever going to know ever in your life.

As for Coach Fisher, I had concerns at first, but slowly I've become a fan. I can assure any of you he is the real deal in my opinion. I would love to see any of you try to keep up with him. One thing is also sure. The Aggies put their money where their mouth is.

Let the flaming begin. Me, I've got to get ready for Auburn.

GIG 'EM

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Good post Coach. I must admit when I finished reading this I realized I was taking a knee and was ready to get on the field.

veryoldcoach said:

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First a little background. I'm a retired football coach having coached at several Texas high schools leaving coaching from one of the 3 or 4 schools in this state that have over 6 state championships to their credit. Also I'm an Aggie to the core, having had my first visit to Kyle Field in 1951. I need to ask a favor of the learned scholars who leave messages on this board. Please refrain for attacking our own players on a personal level by calling them "garbage"and such names. If there is one thing thing that they are not it is garbage. Also, please refrain from insulting the coaches on a personal level. Very few, if any, of you have any understanding of what it takes to be a coach or player for that matter. I've been disappointed by Aggie football more times than I can count. For example, I took it real hard when we lost to Rice in 1957 knocking A&M out of the #1 position in the polls. Talk about a shot in the gut! But you know what, John David Crow, Gene Stallings, Charlie Kruger and all of the rest of that team were not garbage. That game was a real downer. It was as much a downer as the 1955 game with Rice was an upper. We scored 3 touchdowns and 3 EP in a little over 2 minutes remaining in the game to win 21 to 12. A guy named Lloyd Taylor scored all the TDs and kicked all the EPs.

My point is this. There are ups and downs to football. Big ups and big downs. You can argue all you want about what what is wrong and what is right. But, when you name call or attack on a personal level you cross the line of civility. You may think Kellen Mond doesn't measure up to your standards, but you really have no idea of what being on that field is like and you never will. As for Coach Turner, he has forgotten more football than you're ever going to know ever in your life.

As for Coach Fisher, I had concerns at first, but slowly I've become a fan. I can assure any of you he is the real deal in my opinion. I would love to see any of you try to keep up with him. One thing is also sure. The Aggies put their money where their mouth is.

Let the flaming begin. Me, I've got to get ready for Auburn.

GIG 'EM

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Gig 'em, Coach!

DSAG said:

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OldShadeOfBlue said:

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I don't know much about the OL but from what I can tell we are just slow as hell at the tackle positions. Green was getting burned all night Saturday. A couple plays didn't even get a hand on the left end. The side that usually has the slower rusher.

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The tackles are a big problem and while Green is a stud coming in next year, he projects inside long term. We need a couple of athletic tackles.

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Kenyon Green is projected to play tackle. The dude is quicker than any tackle we have on campus, more athletic on the edge than 99% of tackles in the country, and has plenty of length to stay there. Just because he is 6-4 doesn't mean he's a guard.

Cynic said:

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Quote:

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The Aggies put their money where their mouth is.

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No we don't. Our spending is much higher than our mouth. We are satisfied being mediocre but pay like we win championships.

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Incredibly stupid. Sumin was mediocre. If what you are saying was true, we'd have just kept him.

Texagsubscriber said:

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Turner Specials. He has got to find those underrated guys. 4/5 of our oline are three stars or lower. Only McCoy looks like he is panning out.

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With one exception, it's more of the same so far for the 2019 class.

sharpdressedman said:

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Texagsubscriber said:

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Turner Specials. He has got to find those underrated guys. 4/5 of our oline are three stars or lower. Only McCoy looks like he is panning out.

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With one exception, it's more of the same so far for the 2019 class.

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Medley has offers from Bama, Auburn, LSU, Florida State, Florida, Clemson. His 3 star ranking is a joke and I can tell you that Fisher has thought of him as an NFL player from all the way back to when he was at FSU. That's not a diamond in the rough, Turner special by any means. That's beating out big time programs for a big time recruit the recruiting rankings stubbornly have way too low compared to what teams were/are after him.

Robinson also dominated 4 star DL in camps this summer. He isn't exactly a diamond in the rough situation, either. I'll give you Trainor. Lower ranked, mediocre offer list. I'm not as high on him, but he is 6-7 320. If you are going to take a chance, might as well have someone who is a giant.

Not to mention, 3 of our 4 guys redshirting are 4 stars. The future isn't so bleak and in fact, looks significantly better on paper than what we are trotting onto the field now.

Current starting OL composite rankings:

.8532 (3)
.8452 (3)
.8401 (3)
.8293 (3) (With Sutherland out, with him healthy he's the only highly rated guy on the OL)
.8381 (3)

So the guys we have on the field are not just three stars, but extremely low 3 stars. Not to mention mostly 2nd year sophomores who shouldn't be on the field.

2018-2020 classes(the future) composite rankings:

.8914 (4)
.9083 (4)
.9370 (4)
.8891 (3)
.9946 (5)
.8654 (3)
.8642 (3)
.8776 (3)
.9213 (4)
.8953 (4)
.8850 (3)
.8784 (3)

It's not even close, really. The future looks much, much better at the position than what we have on the field now. When you start looking at offer lists, it looks even better.

Thanks for the research beyond the stars ratings.

Isn't Sutherland back? Didn't he play last week when Hocker went out?

The two biggest weaknesses and positions to fill are tackles.

Mond hesitates. He does and it costs us - especially when the decision is to run. But out of the 14 SEC teams, we rank last in sacks allowed and 12th in tackles for a loss allowed. That is not all Mond's fault, especially the tackles for a loss allowed. Good OLines are supposed to make average QBs and RBs better, not incrementally worse. What's more ridiculous is that we are 1st in TOP, that points to lots of inconsistency in the OL. To me, that explains the up and down play by Mond, TWill, in the red zone, etc.

Have Faith. Jimbo will cut him loose if he can't cut it.