Jim Turner has been with us since 2016 if I recall correctly, but our O-Line is still garbage. What is exactly the problem with this? My guts tell me that it's Turner's fault, but if there are significant factors that heavily imply that he's not at fault at the very least, I'd love to hear them.
Why is our O-Line so bad right now?
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Last: 6 yr ago by S.A. Aggie
Turner Specials. He has got to find those underrated guys. 4/5 of our oline are three stars or lower. Only McCoy looks like he is panning out.
NATTY OR BUST. BUST IT IS.
GIVE ME NATTY, OR GIVE ME BAS!!!
GIVE ME NATTY, OR GIVE ME BAS!!!
Isn't that more of Sumlin not being able to recruit O-linemen well enough? I'm not sure how well Sherman recruited them because from my knowledge, our O-lines were great back in those days.Texagsubscriber said:
Turner Specials. He has got to find those underrated guys. 4/5 of our oline are three stars or lower. Only McCoy looks like he is panning out.
Dario said:Isn't that more of Sumlin not being able to recruit O-linemen well enough? I'm not sure how well Sherman recruited them because from my knowledge, our O-lines were great back in those days.Texagsubscriber said:
Turner Specials. He has got to find those underrated guys. 4/5 of our oline are three stars or lower. Only McCoy looks like he is panning out.
Correct, we recruited for a up tempo spread offense where it's lighter lineman for pass pro... we beefed them up for run blocking and our mobility has turned to *****
Add to the fact that we whiffed on lineman since 2012 and it just adds to the problem. Thankfully we recruited a few studs last year and have more able bodied folks coming in.
I think you'll see our lineman starters shake it up next year when our RS guys become elligble freshman. Especially with Blanton and Mathews pushing for a starting job after coming in 2018 recruiting class
I agree Sumlin may not be able to close like Jimbo.
However, all the OL recruits are selected by Turner. Look at the future OL commits: Blake Trainor, Layden Robinson and Josh Bankhead. They are going to be JAGS on the oline. We should have been swinging for the major OL recruits (we have Kenyon Green) and not settling for the lower end recruits.
However, all the OL recruits are selected by Turner. Look at the future OL commits: Blake Trainor, Layden Robinson and Josh Bankhead. They are going to be JAGS on the oline. We should have been swinging for the major OL recruits (we have Kenyon Green) and not settling for the lower end recruits.
NATTY OR BUST. BUST IT IS.
GIVE ME NATTY, OR GIVE ME BAS!!!
GIVE ME NATTY, OR GIVE ME BAS!!!
Hopefully that is the case. Ngl, I'm on the "Jim Turner was only kept because there was no other candidates available" camp atm. I'd love to be proven wrong and see those guys become difference makers next year.Agvet12 said:Dario said:Isn't that more of Sumlin not being able to recruit O-linemen well enough? I'm not sure how well Sherman recruited them because from my knowledge, our O-lines were great back in those days.Texagsubscriber said:
Turner Specials. He has got to find those underrated guys. 4/5 of our oline are three stars or lower. Only McCoy looks like he is panning out.
Correct, we recruited for a spread offense where it's lighter lineman for pass pro... we beefed them up for run blocking and our mobility has turned to *****
Add to the fact that we whiffed on lineman since 2012 and it just adds to the problem. Thankfully we recruited a few studs last year and have more able bodied folks coming in.
I think you'll see our lineman starters shake it up next year when our RS guys become elligble freshman. Especially with Blanton and Mathews pushing for a starting job after coming in 2018 recruiting class
Yeah, I'm really concerned about the lack of star o-linemen we have in our recruiting class atm. It's great to see so many CBs and Ss coming in, but man, that o-line.Texagsubscriber said:
I agree Sumlin may not be able to close like Jimbo.
However, all the OL recruits are selected by Turner. Look at the future OL commits: Blake Trainor, Layden Robinson and Josh Bankhead. They are going to be JAGS on the oline. We should have been swinging for the major OL recruits (we have Kenyon Green) and not settling for the lower end recruits.
Hopefully Jimbo's able to reel more star o-linemen in by the end of this recruiting year.
Jim Turner recruited some of the highest drafted OL in history under Sherman. And some of them played as recently as 2012-13.
Joeckel, Matthews, and several others during that time frame.
You just have a batch right now that they missed on.
Plus....the defensive lines we have faced this year are not only some of the best d-lines in the country...they also happen to be some of the best d-lines in the history of those schools (Clemson and Miss St specifically).
And that doesn't count the good d-lines we expect to face at Auburn (preseason talking heads saying Auburn d-line one of the best in SEC)...and LSU.
And the one we faced at Bama.
This conference is heavy on top notch D-line talent...which I understand is the most difficult position to find and sign...but Bama, Auburn, Florida, LSU, Georgia..all get the best out there.
Fisher better find some O-lineman to counter that...or it will be a very long rebuild.
Joeckel, Matthews, and several others during that time frame.
You just have a batch right now that they missed on.
Plus....the defensive lines we have faced this year are not only some of the best d-lines in the country...they also happen to be some of the best d-lines in the history of those schools (Clemson and Miss St specifically).
And that doesn't count the good d-lines we expect to face at Auburn (preseason talking heads saying Auburn d-line one of the best in SEC)...and LSU.
And the one we faced at Bama.
This conference is heavy on top notch D-line talent...which I understand is the most difficult position to find and sign...but Bama, Auburn, Florida, LSU, Georgia..all get the best out there.
Fisher better find some O-lineman to counter that...or it will be a very long rebuild.
Wisconsin's OL coach turns 3 star prospects into NFL players every year. What does he do that Jim Turner doesn't do?
kentky said:
Wisconsin's OL coach turns 3 star prospects into NFL players every year. What does he do that Jim Turner doesn't do?
Wisconsin dairy farmers. Same with Iowa corn farmers.
Oh man. It's amazing how you already know this. That JAG Layden Robinson whooped up on a couple of 4 star DL in 1 on 1s this summer right in front of our staff.Texagsubscriber said:
I agree Sumlin may not be able to close like Jimbo.
However, all the OL recruits are selected by Turner. Look at the future OL commits: Blake Trainor, Layden Robinson and Josh Bankhead. They are going to be JAGS on the oline. We should have been swinging for the major OL recruits (we have Kenyon Green) and not settling for the lower end recruits.
To think we are settling is ridiculous. Jimbo signed off on all of them. There are only a handful of Kenyon Greens around the country any year.
Here's the deal. Turner might have been here a while, but the oldest guy he recruited on the roster is a Sophomore. He inhereted a 5 person class and couldn't add to it when he first got here. His first class are true sophomores recruiting off a dead man walking program in Sumin and shouldn't be playing much yet. They should be RS FR waiting their turn. But again, we don't have anyone better, so because of that we are playing 5 three star OL with 4 of them being sophomores. .
We probably won't take any more OL this year unless Shepherd flips. Just warning you.Dario said:Yeah, I'm really concerned about the lack of star o-linemen we have in our recruiting class atm. It's great to see so many CBs and Ss coming in, but man, that o-line.Texagsubscriber said:
I agree Sumlin may not be able to close like Jimbo.
However, all the OL recruits are selected by Turner. Look at the future OL commits: Blake Trainor, Layden Robinson and Josh Bankhead. They are going to be JAGS on the oline. We should have been swinging for the major OL recruits (we have Kenyon Green) and not settling for the lower end recruits.
Hopefully Jimbo's able to reel more star o-linemen in by the end of this recruiting year.
We have a very good group of 4 redshirting right now, but they are true fish. Add to that Kenyon Green(stud), Adrian Medley(who I can tell you Jimbo loves and has seen as an NFL OL for a couple of years now), and Robinson who impressed the heck out of our coaches in person, and the future isn't as bleak as some of you suggest.
Quote:
I'm on the "Jim Turner was only kept because there was no other candidates available" camp atm
That's ridiculous. There were plenty of quality candidates at every position that would want to coach under Jimbo with what we were offering.
You sure this wasn't actually due to Mike Sherman, and not necessarily Jim Turner?bv86ag said:
Jim Turner recruited some of the highest drafted OL in history under Sherman. And some of them played as recently as 2012-13.
Joeckel, Matthews, and several others during that time frame.
Was Sherman the guy with the eye for O-linemen? I'm beginning to think he was, based on the poor OL play over the past 2-1/2 seasons that Turner has been back, though I still hold out hope the OL play has been more a factor of Sumlin's recruiting than Turner's coaching ability.
some of y'all have forgotten that we recruited three 4 stars last year in Colton Blanton, Tank Jenkins and Luke Matthews as well as high three star Barton Clement. All of these guys have redshirted this year.
I agree that the last couple of years we have seen less "star power" on the line than we would like to have seen. that's a product of Sumlin in the twilight of his aggie career and his revolving door of OL coaches.
There's also been a dramatic shift in how we play offense from Sumlin to Fisher. with sumlin, the OL had to be lean enough to run 80+ plays in a hurry up fashion a game. This year, we've tried to establish a more time-eating pro style game which requires the same linemen to be larger in order to properly displace very large SEC linemen.
next year, if McCoy stays and one or two of 4 stars Blanton/Matthews/Jenkins step up with another year in the system/strength training along with 5 star kenyon green, we should be in a better place.
I think Blanton will be the LT, Hocker/Moore at LG, McCoy at C, Reed/Jenkins/Moore at RG and C Green/K Green at RT would be a good line.
Layden Robinson is a stud with a heck of a mean streak at C. nevermind his star rating.
I agree that the last couple of years we have seen less "star power" on the line than we would like to have seen. that's a product of Sumlin in the twilight of his aggie career and his revolving door of OL coaches.
There's also been a dramatic shift in how we play offense from Sumlin to Fisher. with sumlin, the OL had to be lean enough to run 80+ plays in a hurry up fashion a game. This year, we've tried to establish a more time-eating pro style game which requires the same linemen to be larger in order to properly displace very large SEC linemen.
next year, if McCoy stays and one or two of 4 stars Blanton/Matthews/Jenkins step up with another year in the system/strength training along with 5 star kenyon green, we should be in a better place.
I think Blanton will be the LT, Hocker/Moore at LG, McCoy at C, Reed/Jenkins/Moore at RG and C Green/K Green at RT would be a good line.
Layden Robinson is a stud with a heck of a mean streak at C. nevermind his star rating.
It very well could be because of Sherman.AggieRob93 said:You sure this wasn't actually due to Mike Sherman, and not necessarily Jim Turner?bv86ag said:
Jim Turner recruited some of the highest drafted OL in history under Sherman. And some of them played as recently as 2012-13.
Joeckel, Matthews, and several others during that time frame.
Was Sherman the guy with the eye for O-linemen? I'm beginning to think he was, based on the poor OL play over the past 2-1/2 seasons that Turner has been back, though I still hold out hope the OL play has been more a factor of Sumlin's recruiting than Turner's coaching ability.
I'm not defending Jim Turner. Maybe he just isn't a good coach, either. But I fully expected to struggle this year. on paper, we don't have a whole lot to work with. It should get better by next season, and on paper be significantly better in a couple of years.
But this year, I fully expected to struggle no matter who was our OL coach. We are going against the best DLs in the country with 5 three stars currently starting, mostly all sophomores, and only two true sec tackles on the roster, one being a true freshman.
I don't know much about the OL but from what I can tell we are just slow as hell at the tackle positions. Green was getting burned all night Saturday. A couple plays didn't even get a hand on the left end. The side that usually has the slower rusher.
Texagsubscriber said:
I agree Sumlin may not be able to close like Jimbo.
However, all the OL recruits are selected by Turner. Look at the future OL commits: Blake Trainor, Layden Robinson and Josh Bankhead. They are going to be JAGS on the oline. We should have been swinging for the major OL recruits (we have Kenyon Green) and not settling for the lower end recruits.
Really? How can you call guys who are highly sought after JAGS. You have no clue what you are talking about. All of those guys are receiving invites to visit etc from top 15 schools.
I'd argue they are not "so bad" but they are also not premier. Of course it's a combination of things. Part of it is sheer raw talent especially on the speed/footwork side , part of it is youth, part of it is learning a new system, part of it is a relatively low number of combined starts together.
The short answer to the OP's question is that there simply not enough talent on the OL. McCoy at center is solid but that is about it. We have got to get better up front or Jimbo's rebuild will be very difficult. I believe we had something like 26 yards rushing against MSU ? We have actually regressed from the start of the season as we did pretty well against Clemson and Bama. That's on Turner.
I have watched the game replay twice and you had to feel bad for Green he was so helpless. If Green starts again next year that's not good.OldShadeOfBlue said:
I don't know much about the OL but from what I can tell we are just slow as hell at the tackle positions. Green was getting burned all night Saturday. A couple plays didn't even get a hand on the left end. The side that usually has the slower rusher.
At least part of it is the abysmal coaching of o-line fundamentals and techniques by Sumlin's group of clowns. He lived off Mike Sherman's o-line coaching for a couple of years. Then the o-line was joke and we are paying the price for that right now.
The only brightside is that Green went against Sweat. Sweat will be a high pick in the draft.TMartin said:I have watched the game replay twice and you had to feel bad for Green he was so helpless. If Green starts again next year that's not good.OldShadeOfBlue said:
I don't know much about the OL but from what I can tell we are just slow as hell at the tackle positions. Green was getting burned all night Saturday. A couple plays didn't even get a hand on the left end. The side that usually has the slower rusher.
NATTY OR BUST. BUST IT IS.
GIVE ME NATTY, OR GIVE ME BAS!!!
GIVE ME NATTY, OR GIVE ME BAS!!!
The offensive line was the biggest concern for this season. The offensive line was recruited and coached to play out of the spread in a two point stance the whole time. It's almost as if we had recruited a bunch of QB's to run the option then only at the last minute switch to a traditional pro offense for a QB.
what happened to the Anderson twins?
were they Sumlin / Turner specials
were they Sumlin / Turner specials
I'd have to go with the secondary.Quote:
The offensive line was the biggest concern for this season.
The o-line has been serviceable but far from solid
The secondary has been burned pretty much all season
are our O lineman from Texas? If so, that is our problem.. the style of Texas high school football does not produce very many good O linemen... Texas high school football has turned to the big 12 style of play... poor blocking technique, especially run blocking... having said that, you would think they could at least pass block better
I agree with all of this, but I think Kenyon Green can be pretty special from Day 1. I think that Kenyon gets the nod at LT, then Dan Moore shifts inside to LG where he is more aptly suited in my opinion. Hopefully one of the 2018 recruits (Matthews?) can take over at C and push McCoy to RG which is where the coaching staff experimented with him during fall camp and then leave RT for the best of Carson Green/Blanton. While I don't think that would be a top 3 OL in the SEC, it probably puts us in the top half and is improved from the current OL...technoviking said:
some of y'all have forgotten that we recruited three 4 stars last year in Colton Blanton, Tank Jenkins and Luke Matthews as well as high three star Barton Clement. All of these guys have redshirted this year.
I agree that the last couple of years we have seen less "star power" on the line than we would like to have seen. that's a product of Sumlin in the twilight of his aggie career and his revolving door of OL coaches.
There's also been a dramatic shift in how we play offense from Sumlin to Fisher. with sumlin, the OL had to be lean enough to run 80+ plays in a hurry up fashion a game. This year, we've tried to establish a more time-eating pro style game which requires the same linemen to be larger in order to properly displace very large SEC linemen.
next year, if McCoy stays and one or two of 4 stars Blanton/Matthews/Jenkins step up with another year in the system/strength training along with 5 star kenyon green, we should be in a better place.
I think Blanton will be the LT, Hocker/Moore at LG, McCoy at C, Reed/Jenkins/Moore at RG and C Green/K Green at RT would be a good line.
Layden Robinson is a stud with a heck of a mean streak at C. nevermind his star rating.
W said:
what happened to the Anderson twins?
were they Sumlin / Turner specials
One's a sophomore and is a backup, the other medically retired.
Wisconsin just goes after giants. Their roster has the following:kentky said:
Wisconsin's OL coach turns 3 star prospects into NFL players every year. What does he do that Jim Turner doesn't do?
6'2" - 1
6'3" - 2
6'4" - 1
6'5" - 1
6'6" or bigger - 9
The 6'5" guy is the smallest weight wise at 289 and is a FR, the rest are 301 and heavier. My guess is the 6'2" to 6'4" guys are centers and the others are guards and tackles. Some of these guys had good rankings and they came from high schools that ran the ball a lot, and are hogs in the run game. With Sumlin, there were about 8 lineman I can remember him recruiting that weighed about 260 and he said they would fill their frame. They never really did. You want beefeaters, you recruit beefeaters. I would almost bet that a 6'6", 318 lb 3 star lineman would be just as good if not better than a 6'6", 285 lb, 4-5 star ,if you get him trained up right. LSU is a team riddled with 3 star lineman that were 320-340 lbs or bigger, some coming out of HS like that. I think we are moving in the right direction and will eventually have these bigger type lineman.
txjacrbt
I strongly disagree with your whole premise of "oh, just get some 3 stars over 300 lbs and they'll be just as good as 4/5 stars...just coach them up".
The offensive (and defensive lines) are the most difficult positions to recruit really well when you aren't getting first pick of the litter each year, and is what separates Power 5 schools from non power 5 more than anything. There are a lot of athletes walking around in this country at the skill positions between 5'10-6'3 who walk around between 185-230 in HS who can become good skill position players at the college level. On the other hand large athletes are much more rare as Bill Parcells always said "There are only so many large human beings in this world who are capable of moving around athletically".
After the shallow set of first pick OL you have 2 options:
-Kids who haven't put on the weight yet but are good athletes/football players who you think will still be athletic enough once they add ~50-75 lbs. Eric Fisher.
-Get a kid who has the height/weight, but he's really not a football player or a good athlete. You hope that your strength and conditioning program as well as tough coaching will turn him into a D1 quality starter, but not everyone is meant to be an athlete. A kid might just be tall and fat, yet not have the overall frame/body/mindset to ever be a good offensive lineman.
Obviously there are diamonds in the rough as Sherman was so good at identifying them, but it seems to be much harder than at other positions. Wisconsin is a glaring exception. I don't know if it's something about the water up there or what, but through several coaching staffs they have always had damn good offensive lines.
The offensive (and defensive lines) are the most difficult positions to recruit really well when you aren't getting first pick of the litter each year, and is what separates Power 5 schools from non power 5 more than anything. There are a lot of athletes walking around in this country at the skill positions between 5'10-6'3 who walk around between 185-230 in HS who can become good skill position players at the college level. On the other hand large athletes are much more rare as Bill Parcells always said "There are only so many large human beings in this world who are capable of moving around athletically".
After the shallow set of first pick OL you have 2 options:
-Kids who haven't put on the weight yet but are good athletes/football players who you think will still be athletic enough once they add ~50-75 lbs. Eric Fisher.
-Get a kid who has the height/weight, but he's really not a football player or a good athlete. You hope that your strength and conditioning program as well as tough coaching will turn him into a D1 quality starter, but not everyone is meant to be an athlete. A kid might just be tall and fat, yet not have the overall frame/body/mindset to ever be a good offensive lineman.
Obviously there are diamonds in the rough as Sherman was so good at identifying them, but it seems to be much harder than at other positions. Wisconsin is a glaring exception. I don't know if it's something about the water up there or what, but through several coaching staffs they have always had damn good offensive lines.
It's also in the conditioning and football style from the top down.
Wisconsins football is played the same at every level, peewee through D1 so it makes it easier for lineman to move up a level and build on the basics.
It's harder for Texas where you see a spread concept, and 7-on-7 and then mold lineman into a a much more complicated prostyle. Add to the fact we play in the SEC where the rest of the south plays a very similar style and puts more athletic kids on defense still rather than offense and you need your OL to be more mature and extra reps
Wisconsins football is played the same at every level, peewee through D1 so it makes it easier for lineman to move up a level and build on the basics.
It's harder for Texas where you see a spread concept, and 7-on-7 and then mold lineman into a a much more complicated prostyle. Add to the fact we play in the SEC where the rest of the south plays a very similar style and puts more athletic kids on defense still rather than offense and you need your OL to be more mature and extra reps
I've read two different pro sports articles speaking to the problem of Sumlin coached drafted A&M linemen, saying they were not coached in technique.
First a little background. I'm a retired football coach having coached at several Texas high schools leaving coaching from one of the 3 or 4 schools in this state that have over 6 state championships to their credit. Also I'm an Aggie to the core, having had my first visit to Kyle Field in 1951. I need to ask a favor of the learned scholars who leave messages on this board. Please refrain for attacking our own players on a personal level by calling them "garbage"and such names. If there is one thing thing that they are not it is garbage. Also, please refrain from insulting the coaches on a personal level. Very few, if any, of you have any understanding of what it takes to be a coach or player for that matter. I've been disappointed by Aggie football more times than I can count. For example, I took it real hard when we lost to Rice in 1957 knocking A&M out of the #1 position in the polls. Talk about a shot in the gut! But you know what, John David Crow, Gene Stallings, Charlie Kruger and all of the rest of that team were not garbage. That game was a real downer. It was as much a downer as the 1955 game with Rice was an upper. We scored 3 touchdowns and 3 EP in a little over 2 minutes remaining in the game to win 21 to 12. A guy named Lloyd Taylor scored all the TDs and kicked all the EPs.
My point is this. There are ups and downs to football. Big ups and big downs. You can argue all you want about what what is wrong and what is right. But, when you name call or attack on a personal level you cross the line of civility. You may think Kellen Mond doesn't measure up to your standards, but you really have no idea of what being on that field is like and you never will. As for Coach Turner, he has forgotten more football than you're ever going to know ever in your life.
As for Coach Fisher, I had concerns at first, but slowly I've become a fan. I can assure any of you he is the real deal in my opinion. I would love to see any of you try to keep up with him. One thing is also sure. The Aggies put their money where their mouth is.
Let the flaming begin. Me, I've got to get ready for Auburn.
GIG 'EM
My point is this. There are ups and downs to football. Big ups and big downs. You can argue all you want about what what is wrong and what is right. But, when you name call or attack on a personal level you cross the line of civility. You may think Kellen Mond doesn't measure up to your standards, but you really have no idea of what being on that field is like and you never will. As for Coach Turner, he has forgotten more football than you're ever going to know ever in your life.
As for Coach Fisher, I had concerns at first, but slowly I've become a fan. I can assure any of you he is the real deal in my opinion. I would love to see any of you try to keep up with him. One thing is also sure. The Aggies put their money where their mouth is.
Let the flaming begin. Me, I've got to get ready for Auburn.
GIG 'EM
veryoldcoach said:
First a little background. I'm a retired football coach having coached at several Texas high schools leaving coaching from one of the 3 or 4 schools in this state that have over 6 state championships to their credit. Also I'm an Aggie to the core, having had my first visit to Kyle Field in 1951. I need to ask a favor of the learned scholars who leave messages on this board. Please refrain for attacking our own players on a personal level by calling them "garbage"and such names. If there is one thing thing that they are not it is garbage. Also, please refrain from insulting the coaches on a personal level. Very few, if any, of you have any understanding of what it takes to be a coach or player for that matter. I've been disappointed by Aggie football more times than I can count. For example, I took it real hard when we lost to Rice in 1957 knocking A&M out of the #1 position in the polls. Talk about a shot in the gut! But you know what, John David Crow, Gene Stallings, Charlie Kruger and all of the rest of that team were not garbage. That game was a real downer. It was as much a downer as the 1955 game with Rice was an upper. We scored 3 touchdowns and 3 EP in a little over 2 minutes remaining in the game to win 21 to 12. A guy named Lloyd Taylor scored all the TDs and kicked all the EPs.
My point is this. There are ups and downs to football. Big ups and big downs. You can argue all you want about what what is wrong and what is right. But, when you name call or attack on a personal level you cross the line of civility. You may think Kellen Mond doesn't measure up to your standards, but you really have no idea of what being on that field is like and you never will. As for Coach Turner, he has forgotten more football than you're ever going to know ever in your life.
As for Coach Fisher, I had concerns at first, but slowly I've become a fan. I can assure any of you he is the real deal in my opinion. I would love to see any of you try to keep up with him. One thing is also sure. The Aggies put their money where their mouth is.
Let the flaming begin. Me, I've got to get ready for Auburn.
GIG 'EM
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