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Too bad you didn't even address my one.

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oh, sorry. yes, I think the guys are ESPN are serious journalists, even though I think Rovell is a tool who has been embarrassed in the past.

If it was a Rovell only story you may have legs. When multiple reporters are working together on a story for OTL who have had multiple sources from all over the country...no, i'm not going to revert to Rovell's *****iness and say "oh well it's cause he's a hack."

I dont care if I sound condescending. I truly believe anyone who looks for reasons at this point to try and believe that JFF didn't take part in this is a complete moron, or(hopefully) just blinded by reality.

Again, let's just pray the proof never surfaces.

[This message has been edited by Bunk Moreland (edited 8/18/2013 11:56p).]

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Plenty of people reported that Manti Teo had a girlfriend who died and none of that was true. Some actually tried to check it out and ignored the evidence they got that contradicted the story.

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great counter that I've already heard before.

Let's go into the major difference...Manti having a GF who died was not a scandal, was not against NCAA violations, and was not potentially a major story. It was a puff piece to drum up storylines attached to ND games. The amount of research about a girlfriend a guy claimed to have is nowhere near the amount of research a claim that the heisman trophy winner has been doing auto sessions for cash would garner.

Sandman...I think Schad said on multiple occasions he viewed the video but the broker attempted to sell it, then was not willing to release it to the public.

Thanks do answering the question.

I know all those people that thought Teo's girlfriend died and it was such a moving storyline think ESPN is a serious news outlet that fact checks stories.

The fact no real news outlet is covering any of this should raise a big red flag for you.

Forgeries explains quite neatly this entire poorly sourced story. I don't doubt that JFF signed some stuff and got taped and photographed once or twice to make thousands of articles look legit. But minimal cooperation by dealers, no proof of payments beyond hearsay, not willing to share the video publicly which maybe looks bad but doesn't show proof of mass signings or payment indicates an effort by authenticators and dealers to explain why they have so much product when forgeries are the most logical answer. Any deeper digging destroys their industry.

i'll leave y'all with the last word.

I gave up on this debate a week ago and didn't want to get back involved in it.

Clearly there are those who still believe JFF didn't do anything wrong or take money or autographs/have Nate take cash. Fine. That's where we'll be.

Hopefully it's a debate we never solve because that would mean proof never surfaces of cash changing hands and JFF goes on to play every game this year.

Kind of funny that we are referring to the video. Like that has some meaning. The report of what was seen in the video by Schad certainly had no gotcha moment. It is sort of like the word video was thrown out there to impress those who weren't paying attention to what was in said video. To the uniformed the though is that ESPN viewed a video with JFF taking cash.

BQ...regarding T'eo, ESPN wasn't the only, and maybe not even the first...to run with the girlfriend storyline. But again, it's not a fair comparison. There was no scandal. It was puff to push for any time any network dealt with a ND game. This is the heisman trophy winner and biggest college celebrity of all time possibly taking cash for autographs. It's going to receive more attention, MUCH more research and check of sources. It's not like ESPN is going off 1 source. They have multiple sources from multiple locations, including one who has basically been coroberrated via JFF himself in the SI story(the guy the night before the bama game)

Gap, please don't confuse my opinion to ESPN's overblowing of the situation. Of course the video(which ESPN claimed provided no proof of payment) didnt prove he took cash, but it did give another situation in which he was in a hotel signing for a broker in bulk. That put the number up to 3(or 4?) by the time they came out with that. Any college player who is going to hotel rooms across the country signing memorabilia in bulk is getting paid.

Ok, I'm terrible at "giving y'all the last word" so this time I will.

Let's all drink good beer in 13 days and enjoy the Rice game at Kyle. Let's also pray for a cool front to hit Friday night and keep the temps in the low 90's.

her not existing ended up being quite the scandal, didn't it.

rovell and schad could absolutely be lying.

A Johnny signature was worth $600 on eBay, $2000 if on a full size helmet. That is a goldmine that invites trouble. It is way easier to forge a signature than to forge a bunch of Benjamin's. The penalty for getting caught probably isn't federal prison either.

Rovell knew the opportunity was going to be there for Johnny so he started looking for it and found it (maybe).

Yes he is a d-bag. And yes, he tracked this all down to make a name for himself. When you see him introduced on shows now, often times they add, "the man who broke the Johnny Manziel story." That was no doubt his motive. But it's the same motive most investigative journalist have, so it's hard to fault him for going after the story. What we can fault him for is the complete hack job he did with it though.

[This message has been edited by Federale01 (edited 8/19/2013 12:12a).]

So, after all this...the story is garbage.

There is rumor and smear but no gotcha. Not too long ago, the editor of a news organization would have sent the story back and said keep digging until you have the gotcha (if there is one). Today, they run the story and call it rumors from unnamed and anonymous sources who aren't actually privy to the allegation.

I don't know the truth, but I can certainly assign motive to those making the allegation and story that would not be simply to get to the truth.

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BQ...regarding T'eo, ESPN wasn't the only, and maybe not even the first...to run with the girlfriend storyline. But again, it's not a fair comparison. There was no scandal. It was puff to push for any time any network dealt with a ND game.

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This only didn't turn into a scandal because he hasn't won the Heisman before the truth came out, ND got hammered by Bama and didn't win the MNC.

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This is the heisman trophy winner and biggest college celebrity of all time possibly taking cash for autographs.

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He may one day be the biggest ever (that catchy nickname helps) but Tim Tebo still holds that crown for now.

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It's going to receive more attention, MUCH more research and check of sources. It's not like ESPN is going off 1 source. They have multiple sources from multiple locations, including one who has basically been coroberrated via JFF himself in the SI story(the guy the night before the bama game)

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The extra research needed prior to running a story like this is why no one else has published. As a poster above mentioned, the editor should have sent this story back with "find the proof" written on it with a red pen. Instead they ran a hack job story. But that's their MO because they aren't really a news organization, and calling their writers "journalists" is laughable and an insult to real journalists. As this story is proving.

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Plenty of people reported that Manti Teo had a girlfriend who died and none of that was true. Some actually tried to check it out and ignored the evidence they got that contradicted the story.

As far as Schad and the video go, he looked at a video of Johnny signing things and the guy told him what Johnny was saying on the video, and what he was "indicating". This was allegedly taken whole jf was at the Walter Camp function...but without seeing the video how can we be sure what was said or what context?

The sources Rovell have are all "familiar with the arrangements" with the brokers. Brokers aren't talking. No one independent of the brokers corroborates Johnny being at these signings for hours on end at the BCS game. No pictures or video exist. No PSA/JSA people were there. They later paid $10k to get the items authenticated.

We know the line moved the week before this broke. We know brokers were pissed at the Manziels because even non-signed things had to be pulled down. We know ESPN spent 3-6 months following Johnny like TMZ. We know Rovell had snarky things to say every time Johnny left the house, including when he was playing golf WITH HIS PARENTS at pebble beach.

I don't know what really happened. I sure as hell am not throwing the guy who won the Heisman, gave an unbelievable speech for my university and is an AGGIE under the bus on the word of Rovell and hearsay from some unnamed sleazy brokers.

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He may one day be the biggest ever (that catchy nickname helps) but Tim Tebo still holds that crown for now.

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News flash, that day already happened. Tebow wasn't half the celeb college athlete...JFF's story lines keep coming.

bottomline...ESPN doesn't have the reporting credibility they had 10 or 15 years ago. They are 30-40% TMZ-esque now. Remember when Chris Mortensen reported back in 2008 that Michael Vick was unlikely to get indicted? Whoops

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Do y'all actually think they are fabricating sources, or haven't checked out their sources? you think the guy that showed Schad the video was made up? the guys that were at the house in Miami were made up?

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Bunk, Are you talking about the video that Shad himself has said doesn't prove any wrong doing on JFF's part. Why do you keep bringing that useless thing up?

I deal with people accused of stuff all the time. A lot of times, it looks really bad in the police report. Most of them are guilty. But not all of them are guilty.

Sometimes we do more digging. Then another witness comes forward, then I get an investigator to check it out. Sometimes there are just too many questions and the state drops the case. Sometimes the person is actually innocent.

If the NY Times fabricates, most other outlets probably do too.

Schad's description of the video is weird. He plays around with the quotations in the article. It is not clear what Schad observed, and what the "source" was describing to Schad. Again, shady! Schad should have described exactly what he observed. Then he should have shut up.

If the evidence spoke volumes, fine. If not, maybe this story never should have been reported.

The bottom line is that media is For-Profit Entertainment. Never forget it. And they compete with: violent movies with lots of explosions; internet porn; all the other celebrity gossip trash...Journalists face intense pressure to provide "content." Fail to provide something interesting and Rovell is out of a job.

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Not too long ago, the editor of a news organization would have sent the story back and said keep digging until you have the gotcha (if there is one). Today, they run the story and call it rumors from unnamed and anonymous sources who aren't actually privy to the allegation.

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Bunk seems to think that Joe Shad is impervious to mistake. I don't think Shad is making stuff up but it is possible and even likely that he jumped the gun. ESPN has done nothing but jump the gun over the past several years.

They looked like idiots campaigning for Manti with the dead girlfriend story. They campaign for ratings all year long picking NC and Heisman winners before the year even starts. They are not journalist and certainly not investigative journalist in any way shape or form. They are an entertainment channel that likes to play kids lives to make a buck.

ESPN got a lead on the JFF story from some very suspect "sources" and chose to roll with it. They were in the middle of the slowest part of the sports year and facing lower numbers. Any credible editor and journalist would have dug deeper before moving on the report.

It's a hack job of the highest order.

Network equivalent to the National Enquirer.

This isn't about whether Manziel got paid. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't.

But that doesn't take away from the fact that shad and rovell haven't vetted their sources and even asked questions about the veracity of their sources other than parrot their accusations.

I will bet $1000 that there is no way Manziel sat down for signed thousands of autographs over a period of several hours with no real evidence that such an event occurred. Autograph brokers are a sleazy bunch and I would doubt anything and everything they said without hard evidence.

Also, the fact that no other news organizations has been able to find any information on their own is pretty odd. If this was widespread as shad and rovell make it out to be, you think one other journalist would be able to uncover something.

The only other journalist to actually talk to broker was Feldman (way more respected than shad or rovell) and his source said their could an axe to grind between the dealers and the Manziels.

Will Mcavoy wouldn't have reported this story!

I look at the personalities involved and it causes me to speculate about what actually happened, about the motives, and about the degree of guilt. I cannot come up with any scenario where everything is as black and white as ESPN paints it. I suspect that when all the dust settles, no one is going to look very good, but that the most believable story is going to put Johnny in a better light than ESPN is portraying him. Absolutely innocent? Probably not. Naive, stupid, and cocky? Yeah, that makes sense. Is it possible that Johnny did whatever he did out of loyalty to his friend, who was not being paid by anyone at the time for all his work for Johnny, but stood to make a little money on this deal? I could believe that. Loyalty, not money, seems to be the most likely motive. Stupid? Definitely. Greedy? Not as likely. It possible that crack reporter Rovell was the only one left at ESPN that did not know that Johnny's family is well off when he tweeted about the $500 green fees? Yeah, he appears to be that stupid.

Here are a few things I have been wondering about:

1) How can sources at one event be independent of each other if they were all in attendance at the invitation of the autograph broker in his own home?

2) Would it be to the advantage of the brokers and authenticators to verify stories of signing events if the only other explanation was massive fraud in the memorabilia business?

3) Has anyone at ESPN actually checked to see if it is even possible to to sign that many autographs in one sitting? When Rovell says he has seen someone sign 1000 autographs in an hour, has anyone bothered to ask him who and when?

4) Has anyone tried matching some of these autographs to see if they are identical? Why has ESPN completely stayed away from the angle of autograph fraud in their reporting? Was there a deal made with the sources?

5) Should Rovell and Shad be fearing the work of legitimate journalists who are probably out there right now digging up the entire story about the autograph for pay business involving multiple college athletes, fraudulent duplication and certification of autographs, the ties to the Manziel story and gamblers, and the reason Rovell seems to be connected to an unusually high number of sources in the sleazy memorabilia business?

6) Does anyone at ESPN question the logic of a spoiled rich kid wanting to use the money to buy rims for his car when the car was already a gift from his Dad, who happens to manage a car dealership? That statement sounded like a total fabrication to me, which would make me question the validity of the rest of what the guy said. Why did ESPN run with that statement without the obvious follow-up. I think we know why.

7) What would happen if a reporter got wind of a relatively minor signing session involving Johnny Manziel, found that there was not much to it, but then approached the autograph brokers and authenticators with the threat to expose massive fraud in their business if they didn't embellish their Johnny story to his liking? What do you think they would do?

What if...

Rovell has more information than he has told already and is going to break the story opening weekend. Maybe he is telling a bit of the story at a time to keep himself in the news then releases any other info he has the first weekend of games.

That's why it is important for Johnny to come clean to the NCAA as soon as possible, and then take his lumps. If it's really bad, then it's going to be just as bad early as it is late. Lying only makes things worse. If Johnny tells the truth, then whatever Rovell tries to come up with won't matter.

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I dont care if I sound condescending. I truly believe anyone who looks for reasons at this point to try and believe that JFF didn't take part in this is a complete moron, or(hopefully) just blinded by reality.

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Yet with no shred of credible evidence, no proof other than what a drug dealer and other questionable broker types allegedly told two low class gossip columnists , you drop the hammer on Manziel as guilty. So who is the complete moron?

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