No one should seriously be complaining about a 7-year contract. What is nonsensical, nay completely idiotic, is a buyout clause that guarantees his contract for the full 7 years. No athletic director that cares about his school's finances and knows how to negotiate a contract would do that.
Are we still paying Dennis?
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62 Replies |
Last: 15 yr ago by Air Force Horn
quote:
So bottomline...Fran is still on the payroll for 1 more year. The post-2004 extension was an absolute disaster
Fran failed miserably here, but there is no reason to rewrite history. In his first job, he took over a terrible New Mexico team and get them a conference championship in around 5 years. He took over a bad TCU team and turned them into a 10-2 program. He took over a 3-8 Alabama team and turned them into a 10-3 squad that won the SEC West. His record is not too much over .500, but he has taken over at some bad programs.
Obviously, the guy failed miserably here at A&M. But when we hired him, he was among the top 3 hottest coaches on the market.
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I can make a case that fran was one of the worse coaches in college FB history.
well, you could try, but it would be irrational.
quote:Patterson made frannie at TCU and at Bama, he had too much talent to screw that up ... I am sorry frannie was the worst coach that I've seen in the Big 12 era. His recruiting and game-day coaching were beyond bad. And for the record, I never wanted frannie-boy ... every Ag on site was calling me an idiot for suggesting Kubiak.
Fran was a great coach before coming to Aggieland. This place went crazy with expectations. Many people changed their usernames to Fran da Man, etc.
[This message has been edited by czar_iv (edited 7/14/2010 8:57a).]
czar- put me in the anti-frannie mode... I wanted Tubbs at Auburn
quote:
Fran failed miserably here, but there is no reason to rewrite history. In his first job, he took over a terrible New Mexico team and get them a conference championship in around 5 years. He took over a bad TCU team and turned them into a 10-2 program. He took over a 3-8 Alabama team and turned them into a 10-3 squad that won the SEC West. His record is not too much over .500, but he has taken over at some bad programs.
While posting a few facts you completely failed to post anything with any truth.
Fran sucked at New Mexico until Patterson arrived. Patterson went with fran to TCU where LT was waiting and Fran then tried to turn LT into a Full Back. The Alabama team he took over was one of the most talented teams in a down SEC and only went 3-8 during a period when their coach was being fired for banging his secretary. His big turn around at Bama's signature victory was beating a 7-5 LSU team. Until fran beat tu at A&M his entire career in football did not include a victory over ANY TEAM that finished ranked in the AP top 25. Yeah he beat a few that were ranked at the time of the game but not one of those teams finished ranked until very late in his career.
The guy was all smoke draws and mirrors.
quote:
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Fran failed miserably here, but there is no reason to rewrite history. In his first job, he took over a terrible New Mexico team and get them a conference championship in around 5 years. He took over a bad TCU team and turned them into a 10-2 program. He took over a 3-8 Alabama team and turned them into a 10-3 squad that won the SEC West. His record is not too much over .500, but he has taken over at some bad programs.
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While posting a few facts you completely failed to post anything with any truth.
Every fact I posted was true. Now, you may think the signicance of the true facts I posted are mitiagted by the true facts that you posted. And you would be right. I am not claiming that Fran was a great coach. I am simply saying that his level of sucktitude is exaggerated on this board, for obvious reasons. Regardless of whether or not the 3-8 Bama squad had talent, regardless of the fact that LT and Patterson helped him win, the fact is that he was the head coach at 3 impressive turn-arounds. One doesn't do that while being, as one poster put it, "one of the worst coaches in the history of college football."
I'm not saying he was a great coach. I'm just saying that the facts of his career do not rationally support the claim that he was "one of the worst coaches in the history of college football."
Sure the 2004 extension was a disaster, but at least BB was shrewd enough to find a relatively cheap out once mackenzie-gate came about. In the end, that buyout probably wouldn't have been that much different than what he would have gotten if not given the big extension previously.
BB lucked out for sure. Absent Frangate I don't think he would have been fired. The cost would have been prohibitive. But after that amazing luck, why would BB willingly put us in the same bind with another 7-year buyout? I don't think he is clueless. I do think he is underhanded.
Ummm I actually think he is.
quote:which two programs that Patterson was directly associated with ... frannie's performance at A&M (without Patterson) speaks for itself. frannie was a coaching charlatan; no more.
the fact is that he was the head coach at 3 impressive turn-arounds.
quote:
While posting a few facts you completely failed to post anything with any truth.
Pretty funny statement if you think about it. Also, is there such a thing as a False Fact?
quote:
No one should seriously be complaining about a 7-year contract. What is nonsensical, nay completely idiotic, is a buyout clause that guarantees his contract for the full 7 years. No athletic director that cares about his school's finances and knows how to negotiate a contract would do that.
I don't think you understand the concept of a multi-year contract. So you're saying that he should have a 7 year contract that allows Texas A&M to fire him at any time without cause? Why does the contract even exist?
quote:
I don't think you understand the concept of a multi-year contract. So you're saying that he should have a 7 year contract that allows Texas A&M to fire him at any time without cause? Why does the contract even exist?
You could have a contract that specifies you'll pay a certain percentage of the remaining dollar amount. For example, if you're the coach, say with 3 years left paying you $2 million a year, and the buyout is 65%, you would get $3,900,000 as you cleared your desk and NOT have to work over the next 3 years to earn it. So that's a pretty darn good deal for the coach, AND it precludes the university from having to pay out the entire amount. Now, as part of the buyout percentage, the coach should specify in the contract that he can immediately go coach at another university, and the amount he earns there has no bearing on the buyout payment.
To me, that is the kind of deal that should be made.
Face it. We all love paying coaches who haven't coached for us for years. It helps reinforce the stereotype that we Texans are all this guy:
quote:
I don't think you understand the concept of a multi-year contract. So you're saying that he should have a 7 year contract that allows Texas A&M to fire him at any time without cause? Why does the contract even exist?
Oh dear, where to start? Once again, you are the one that doesn't understand. Of course you can fire a coach without cause. And he can quit before the end of his contract term as well. Sorry, indentured servitude is frowned on nowadays. Michigan's contract is an example of a contract that was well drafted (Rodriquez had supreme bargaining power, but Michigan knows how to negotiate a contract). This may not be exact, but close. If they fire him without cause in years 1,2 they pay him 4 million. In years 3,4 they pay him 1.5 million. After that, nothing. Every contract allows a school to fire a coach "for cause" and avoid the buyout provisions, but that is a different story. Compare that to Sherman's contract. Our buyout figures are astronomical in comparison
Yeah, if you look at the market other schools can negotiate pretty good buyout clauses for themselves.
Sherman wasn't the kind of coach that was in demand that he could have held out for a complete contract buyout.
More than likely the good ol boys who forced er, supported his hiring just let him have the buyout for the entire contract.
Sherman wasn't the kind of coach that was in demand that he could have held out for a complete contract buyout.
More than likely the good ol boys who forced er, supported his hiring just let him have the buyout for the entire contract.
quote:
Fran got an extension because Byrne thought Notre Dame was going to "take him" from us.
Man, I remember actually WORRYING about this. Seems like a hundred years ago now.
quote:
Fran sucked at New Mexico until Patterson arrived. Patterson went with fran to TCU where LT was waiting and Fran then tried to turn LT into a Full Back. The Alabama team he took over was one of the most talented teams in a down SEC and only went 3-8 during a period when their coach was being fired for banging his secretary. Until fran beat tu at A&M his entire career in football did not include a victory over ANY TEAM that finished ranked in the AP top 25.
The guy was all smoke draws and mirrors.
This is an excellent summary of the truth.
Take his true prior record, add a few examples of playcalls that even my 12-year old son would know better than to make, and you have exactly what he is/was - a complete fraud.
[This message has been edited by AgKJ (edited 7/14/2010 5:12p).]
Fran apologists, wow.
I still say Fran needs a 'stache.
I still say Fran needs a 'stache.
quote:
Fran apologists, wow.
Only on Texags can saying that Fran "failed miserably" suffice to cause the speaker to be called a Fran apologist.
This place is just flat nuts way too often.
Whistling,
Fran was a house of cards in my opinion. In fact, back when he was hired I made a post essentially saying what I'm about to say here. (I can't remember if I made the post on TexAgs or on some Baylor board, but either way, it's out there somewhere if someone wants to search for it.)
First, let's look at his New Mexico stint, his first turnaround gig. Fran steps in 1992 and promptly goes 24-32 in his first five years. That may have been a technical improvement over Sheppard's (prior coach) years, but it wasn't by much and was hardly anything to write home about. Then, in 1996 something happened. The WAC started to change. This was the year that the WAC expanded to 16. In that 1996 year, Tulsa, TCU, Rice, and SMU all were added to New Mexico's schedule for the 1996 and 1997 seasons. Behind an unbelievably weak non-conference slate which consisted of a D1AA team, New Mexico State, and (at the time, an emerging D1A independent) UCF, New Mexico found a way to 6 wins. The three conference wins were over TCU (4-7), Tulsa (4-7), and UTEP (2-9).
With a load of returning starters and a SOS of nearly triple digits (#97), the Lobos notched 9 wins over teams that would go a combined 32-58 in 1997. They lost in their bowl game to a 6-5 Arizona team.
Fran promptly jumped to TCU after that year. He began coaching the Frogs in 1998 with a very talented sophomore RB named LaDanian Tomlinson, who was already a part of the Horned Frog program.
Something unique should be noted here. In 1998, the first year that Fran took over the Frogs, the 16 team WAC rotated their quadrants. There had been 4 quadrants of 4 teams each. TCU, Rice, SMU, and Tulsa were in the most easterly quadrant, which had paired them up with New Mexico, BYU, Utah, and UTEP in the 1996 and 1997 seasons. With the rotation for the 1998 season (and what would’ve been the 1999 season), TCU traded those four teams for UNLV, Colorado State, Wyoming, and Air Force, all of whom were considerably weaker. For the 1999 season, the current members of the MWC (sans-TCU) all jumped to their own league (Mountain West) out of frustration with the craziness of the WAC (and what they perceived was dilution of the league). The WAC did not expand to replace those 8 teams, so the WAC for 1999-2000 ended up being:
Fresno State
Hawaii
Rice
SMU
Tulsa
San Jose State
Nevada (added in 2000)
UTEP
TCU
The weaknesses of that schedule (the rotation in 1998 and the post-breakup WAC in 1999 and 2000) was evident and can be backed up by the W/L records of TCU’s opponents in 98-00. In that three year span, TCU’s opponents were a combined 184-244, including 119-171 in 1999 and 2000 when TCU’s SOS figures were over 100 (#105 in 1999 and #101 in 2000). The weak schedule, combined with having the best RB in the entire country (which Fran didn’t even recruit, but inherited), gave Fran the perfect storm to win at TCU. Even TCU was disgusted by the weakness of the WAC and jumped to CUSA for the 2001 season.
As a side note, I would also point out that Gary Patterson was Fran’s DC at New Mexico during his two best years there (1996 and 1997) and followed him to TCU where Patterson has had enormous success.
Following the amazing 2000 year for the Frogs, Fran jumped to Alabama. Fran is always credited with a turnaround at Alabama for a reason I’ve yet to figure. In 1999, the Tide won the SEC-West and lost to Michigan by 1 point in the Orange Bowl. That was far from a program on life support. If I recall correctly, they had a very talented recruiting class thanks to the Orange Bowl appearance the year before. While they did have a 3-8 overall record in 2000, the Tide had 3 losses by less than a TD and 6 losses by 10 or less. And again, they were one year removed from a BCS bowl and an appearance in the SEC championship game when Fran took over.
Fran’s record in his two years at Bama was 17-8, pretty good. But considering most of his own recruits never saw the field and given the competitiveness and success of the program before his arrival, it’s a huge question of whether or not that was really a “rebuilding situation.” More importantly, the Alabama teams in the few years after his departure suffered talent wise. Fran had left the cupboard bare.
In the end, I’m not overly impressed with any of those rebuilding jobs.
New Mexico was probably the best but considering he went to one bowl game in those 7 years and that 9-4 bowl team was built on a weak schedule, I’m not sure whether it was really turned around or UNM’s strength was simply overinflated that year.
At TCU, he built up an incredible W/L record against some of the most horrid SOS figures in the nation and with the nation’s best RB which he did not recruit.
And at Alabama, who had plenty of talent when he arrived and was one year removed from a BCS bowl, he did good, at best, although recruiting was a problem after he left.
We all remember that he then immediately jumped for BCS and the rest is history. His W/L records were impressive and there was tons of fanfare about his hiring, but it’s my opinion that Fran was always a house of cards, jumping at the first chance for a new gig because the previous one was never a true rebuild, but a combination of circumstanced in which any decent coach could’ve succeeded.
Fran was a house of cards in my opinion. In fact, back when he was hired I made a post essentially saying what I'm about to say here. (I can't remember if I made the post on TexAgs or on some Baylor board, but either way, it's out there somewhere if someone wants to search for it.)
First, let's look at his New Mexico stint, his first turnaround gig. Fran steps in 1992 and promptly goes 24-32 in his first five years. That may have been a technical improvement over Sheppard's (prior coach) years, but it wasn't by much and was hardly anything to write home about. Then, in 1996 something happened. The WAC started to change. This was the year that the WAC expanded to 16. In that 1996 year, Tulsa, TCU, Rice, and SMU all were added to New Mexico's schedule for the 1996 and 1997 seasons. Behind an unbelievably weak non-conference slate which consisted of a D1AA team, New Mexico State, and (at the time, an emerging D1A independent) UCF, New Mexico found a way to 6 wins. The three conference wins were over TCU (4-7), Tulsa (4-7), and UTEP (2-9).
With a load of returning starters and a SOS of nearly triple digits (#97), the Lobos notched 9 wins over teams that would go a combined 32-58 in 1997. They lost in their bowl game to a 6-5 Arizona team.
Fran promptly jumped to TCU after that year. He began coaching the Frogs in 1998 with a very talented sophomore RB named LaDanian Tomlinson, who was already a part of the Horned Frog program.
Something unique should be noted here. In 1998, the first year that Fran took over the Frogs, the 16 team WAC rotated their quadrants. There had been 4 quadrants of 4 teams each. TCU, Rice, SMU, and Tulsa were in the most easterly quadrant, which had paired them up with New Mexico, BYU, Utah, and UTEP in the 1996 and 1997 seasons. With the rotation for the 1998 season (and what would’ve been the 1999 season), TCU traded those four teams for UNLV, Colorado State, Wyoming, and Air Force, all of whom were considerably weaker. For the 1999 season, the current members of the MWC (sans-TCU) all jumped to their own league (Mountain West) out of frustration with the craziness of the WAC (and what they perceived was dilution of the league). The WAC did not expand to replace those 8 teams, so the WAC for 1999-2000 ended up being:
Fresno State
Hawaii
Rice
SMU
Tulsa
San Jose State
Nevada (added in 2000)
UTEP
TCU
The weaknesses of that schedule (the rotation in 1998 and the post-breakup WAC in 1999 and 2000) was evident and can be backed up by the W/L records of TCU’s opponents in 98-00. In that three year span, TCU’s opponents were a combined 184-244, including 119-171 in 1999 and 2000 when TCU’s SOS figures were over 100 (#105 in 1999 and #101 in 2000). The weak schedule, combined with having the best RB in the entire country (which Fran didn’t even recruit, but inherited), gave Fran the perfect storm to win at TCU. Even TCU was disgusted by the weakness of the WAC and jumped to CUSA for the 2001 season.
As a side note, I would also point out that Gary Patterson was Fran’s DC at New Mexico during his two best years there (1996 and 1997) and followed him to TCU where Patterson has had enormous success.
Following the amazing 2000 year for the Frogs, Fran jumped to Alabama. Fran is always credited with a turnaround at Alabama for a reason I’ve yet to figure. In 1999, the Tide won the SEC-West and lost to Michigan by 1 point in the Orange Bowl. That was far from a program on life support. If I recall correctly, they had a very talented recruiting class thanks to the Orange Bowl appearance the year before. While they did have a 3-8 overall record in 2000, the Tide had 3 losses by less than a TD and 6 losses by 10 or less. And again, they were one year removed from a BCS bowl and an appearance in the SEC championship game when Fran took over.
Fran’s record in his two years at Bama was 17-8, pretty good. But considering most of his own recruits never saw the field and given the competitiveness and success of the program before his arrival, it’s a huge question of whether or not that was really a “rebuilding situation.” More importantly, the Alabama teams in the few years after his departure suffered talent wise. Fran had left the cupboard bare.
In the end, I’m not overly impressed with any of those rebuilding jobs.
New Mexico was probably the best but considering he went to one bowl game in those 7 years and that 9-4 bowl team was built on a weak schedule, I’m not sure whether it was really turned around or UNM’s strength was simply overinflated that year.
At TCU, he built up an incredible W/L record against some of the most horrid SOS figures in the nation and with the nation’s best RB which he did not recruit.
And at Alabama, who had plenty of talent when he arrived and was one year removed from a BCS bowl, he did good, at best, although recruiting was a problem after he left.
We all remember that he then immediately jumped for BCS and the rest is history. His W/L records were impressive and there was tons of fanfare about his hiring, but it’s my opinion that Fran was always a house of cards, jumping at the first chance for a new gig because the previous one was never a true rebuild, but a combination of circumstanced in which any decent coach could’ve succeeded.
quote:
At TCU, he built up an incredible W/L record against some of the most horrid SOS figures in the nation and with the nation’s best RB which he did not recruit.
And at Alabama, who had plenty of talent when he arrived and was one year removed from a BCS bowl, he did good, at best, although recruiting was a problem after he left.
We all remember that he then immediately jumped for BCS and the rest is history. His W/L records were impressive and there was tons of fanfare about his hiring, but it’s my opinion that Fran was always a house of cards, jumping at the first chance for a new gig because the previous one was never a true rebuild, but a combination of circumstanced in which any decent coach could’ve succeeded.
Well, that pretty much agrees with everything I've said. I never said he was a good coach. I simply said that his level of sucktitude is often exaggerated here on Texags. (For example, there are many comments like, "He was one of the worst coaches in the history of college football" ).
For starters, he took a perenial Top 15 program with massive resources, support, and recruiting opportunities, and turned it into bottom quartile. And for the low low cost of ~$15 MM.
His blowout losses are almost too numerous to keep track of.
His few quality wins are more due to acts of God than his coaching.
Did you every hear him say something profound?
His player retention rate was horriffic. Poor Sherman had to play true freshman in what would have been fran's 6th yr. His recruiting was truly smoke and mirors.
How many job offers has he received since he left A&M? (Keep in mind he had to go thru the motions of interviewing to keep his A&M buyout.) How did his assistant coaches fare after they left A&M?
His blowout losses are almost too numerous to keep track of.
His few quality wins are more due to acts of God than his coaching.
Did you every hear him say something profound?
His player retention rate was horriffic. Poor Sherman had to play true freshman in what would have been fran's 6th yr. His recruiting was truly smoke and mirors.
How many job offers has he received since he left A&M? (Keep in mind he had to go thru the motions of interviewing to keep his A&M buyout.) How did his assistant coaches fare after they left A&M?
Thanks Baylor guy, well done.
quote:2000 7-5
For starters, he took a perenial Top 15 program with massive resources, support, and recruiting opportunities, and turned it into bottom quartile. And for the low low cost of ~$15 MM.
2001 8-4
2002 6-6
Hilarious that you consider that top 15.
quote:that 3-8 team was AP pre-season #1 to boot
While they did have a 3-8 overall record in 2000, the Tide had 3 losses by less than a TD and 6 losses by 10 or less. And again, they were one year removed from a BCS bowl and an appearance in the SEC championship game when Fran took over.
Fran's Div 1-A winning percentage before he got here and after he got here are pretty close to the same. The only thing that I was really impressed with in his record is what he did at TCU, but I feel like the current TCU head coach had more to do with the turnaround than Fran did.
Edit: NM, apparently sites with the word "texas" in the URL can't be posted on TexAgs.
[This message has been edited by Air Force Horn (edited 7/14/2010 7:54p).]
[This message has been edited by Air Force Horn (edited 7/14/2010 7:54p).]
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