Why is the Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire so underrated?

2,455 Views | 24 Replies | Last: 13 hrs ago by Green2Maroon
Green2Maroon
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AG
I have been fascinated with the Roman Empire since I was 11 years old. Their military prowess, cultural legacy, and influence has echoed through time for 2,000 years. Most people understand that the Roman Empire fell in 476 AD, and this is true for the western empire. What most people fail to realize is that the eastern empire lasted for another millennium after that.

Constantinople was dedicated in 330 AD as the new capital of the entire Roman Empire. The Eastern Empire would make it all the way to 1453, when Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Empire. The last of the Romans fought to the last man and made one of the greatest last stands in history. Very few states have matched their incredible run of 1,123 years. Century after century and crisis after crisis. War after war and battle after battle.

So why no love for perhaps the most underrated state that ever existed in the world? They were truly incredible.
BQ78
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AG
Short answer, survivors not innovators
Green2Maroon
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AG
Smeghead4761
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I think a lot of it had to do with the Schism between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox church.

There's also a much more direct cultural and linguistic connection between the Latin speaking Western Roman empire (and the unified Roman empire before that) and the Greek speaking Eastern/Byzantine empire.

The Western/unified Roman empire also controlled a good portion of Western Europe, from the Iberian peninsula to the Rhein, plus England. This is the part of Europe that would become both culturally and politically dominant moving from the Renaissance and into the Enlightenment period.
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doubledog
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BQ78 said:

Short answer, survivors not innovators

In the end the Arab/Ottoman conquests overshadowed the older Roman empire.
nortex97
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AG
The history of Byzantium with Robin Pierson is one of the absolute greatest podcast series imho. I agree it is under-studied history.

TLDW, but for plagues and getting sacked by crusaders I doubt the ottomans would have been able to take Constantinople, but ultimately it doesn't matter; it happened. One of history's great tragedies though the history of the empire as with most involved some truly terrible rulers/emperors.
oldord
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AG
I would have to disagree that they eventually would have fallen. There was little cultural dynamism left and outside of the actual city of Constantinople, they controlled very little. It was basically a commercial city that outlasted it's empire.
nortex97
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AG
1204 and the plagues took an incredible toll is my point. I'm sure it would have at some point fallen, but not when it did (and even that took some betrayal).

Today's discussions of 'just war' are particularly ironic coming from the Vatican, to me.
Green2Maroon
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AG
Without Manzikert and the Fourth Crusade, maybe we see the empire make it to 1650 or 1750. Probably not still around today though.
oldord
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AG
Understood, you are probably right
Green2Maroon
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AG
The Vatican has formally apologized for what happened in 1204.
Sapper Redux
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nortex97 said:

The history of Byzantium with Robin Pierson is one of the absolute greatest podcast series imho. I agree it is under-studied history.

TLDW, but for plagues and getting sacked by crusaders I doubt the ottomans would have been able to take Constantinople, but ultimately it doesn't matter; it happened. One of history's great tragedies though the history of the empire as with most involved some truly terrible rulers/emperors.


You're underestimating how successful and powerful the Ottomans were. The Byzantines had also lost most of their empire before the Ottomans came on the scene and were wracked by poor leadership.
Aggie Infantry
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AG
Read Chapter III
The art of war in the Middle Ages, A.D. 378-1515 : Oman, Charles William Chadwick, Sir, 1860-1946 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Read the whole book. One of the best books on the era.
P.H. Dexippus
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AG
A couple more "what ifs":
1. The 1445 Decree of Union succeeds in reuniting Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, and crusader armies intervene to check the Ottoman advance.
2. The British don't intercede when the Russians are outside the gates of Constantinople in 1878.
Green2Maroon
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AG
The Russians used to be very interested in taking Constantinople and setting up a new Byzantine Empire.
nortex97
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AG
Green2Maroon said:

The Russians used to be very interested in taking Constantinople and setting up a new Byzantine Empire.

They've had a tough enough time lately just inching toward Kiev. At one point in Russian history Moscow was supposed to be the 'new Rome' as the heir to Rome after Constantinople fell. There's still some cultural memory of that as an heir to civilization-type of role for themselves, as perhaps absurd as it sounds.

Anyway, the siege itself only went on 55 days. The aftermath was horrific.
Smeghead4761
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Green2Maroon said:

The Russians used to be very interested in taking Constantinople and setting up a new Byzantine Empire.

Sean McMeekin talks about this at length in his book The Russian Origins of the First World War. Summary: the Russians saw the excuse of supporting the Serbs as a way to take Galicia from Austria-Hungary as an immediate goal. The bigger goal, once the Ottomans entered the war, was Constantinople, both for historical and religious reasons and for warm water ocean access. To that end, the Russians did engage in operations against the Ottomans in the Middle East and the Levant, to include providing arms to the Armenians, whose rebellion against the Ottomans helped spur the Armenian genocide.

According to McMeekin, the Russians were getting close to being ready to move on Constantinople when the Romanov government collapsed.
Green2Maroon
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AG
The Greeks dreamed for more than 400 years of one day retaking Constantinople and crowning a new emperor in the Hagia Sophia. A glorious coronation, restored prestige and once again the pride of their ancient capital and cathedral.

Approximately 60 to 70 imperial coronations did occur in the Hagia Sophia over the centuries.
Green2Maroon
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AG
Byzantine braised chicken thighs. With artichoke hearts, Kalamata olives, and garlic cloves. They ate virtually the same thing way back in 1026, at the height of the empire.

CrackerJackAg
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AG
BQ78 said:

Short answer, survivors not innovators


Short answer to your answer…. Ignorant.

A state cannot survive over 1,100 years surrounded by aggressive rival empires through stubborn inertia. The Eastern Roman Empire survived precisely because it adapted, reorganized, and invented its way through crises that destroyed every one of its contemporary rivals.

Are you ignorant of how few 1000 year plus empire level civilizations exist?

Japan and Venice are all that come to mind that has 1000 year continual governments and none of the scale of Constantinople.

Incredibly stupid statement to make regarding any civilization that lasted hundreds of years much less a millennium.

The Western Roman's didn't do it and they did not face the advanced civilizations of the East.

(Gonna copy and paste & type a bit here as I don't want to type all this up)

Legal innovations like the Code of Justinian that provided the entire backbone of Western Law

While Western Europe fragmented into localized feudalism, Constantinople refined a professional, salary-based civil service, merit-tested chanceries, and advanced tax collection systems that were centuries ahead of contemporary Western models.

Facing devastating territorial losses to the early Caliphate in the 7th century, the empire completely scrapped its broken classical military model. They reorganized provinces into themata, giving hereditary land grants to citizen-soldiers in exchange for regional defense. This military-administrative overhaul saved the empire and established a sustainable agrarian defense network.

Byzantine military manuals moved beyond brute force, pioneering combined-arms doctrine, counter-insurgency, asymmetrical warfare, deception, and intelligence gathering. They were among the first to treat warfare as an operational science rather than individual heroic combat.

The invention of a petroleum-based incendiary weapon delivered via pressurized naval siphon systems was one of the most effective chemical warfare innovations in human history, repeatedly breaking naval sieges of Constantinople.

The construction of Hagia Sophia (537 AD) pioneered the use of massive pendentivescurved triangular vaults that transition a square base into a circular dome. The sheer scale and architectural daring remained unmatched for nearly a thousand years.

The Theodosian Walls were a marvel of layered defensive design (a moat, an outer breastwork, an outer wall, and an inner wall with alternating tower angles) that resisted medieval siege technology for over a millennium. Beneath the city, innovations in hydraulic engineering, such as the Basilica Cistern, sustained urban life through multi-year blockades.

Byzantine emperors essentially invented modern institutional diplomacy. The "Bureau of Barbarians" operated an intelligence and diplomatic apparatus designed to turn enemies against one another, forge dynastic marriages, and project cultural influence without expending military resources.

Byzantine scholars and missionaries like Cyril and Methodius developed the Glagolitic script (which evolved into Cyrillic) to translate scripture, systematically shaping the literacy, law, and state structures of the Slavic world.

Byzantium was the first European civilization to move beyond hospices to specialized, state and church funded hospitals with dedicated wards, staff physicians, hierarchy, and hygiene protocols.

BQ78
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AG
Hey man, I'm just a product of crappy American education. Hope I'm not ignorant just uneducated. But your first paragraph does a great job of making my short ignorant point.
CrackerJackAg
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AG
BQ78 said:

Hey man, I'm just a product of crappy American education. Hope I'm not ignorant just uneducated. But your first paragraph does a great job of making my short ignorant point.



Yeah American education on Byzantium has been quite poor until recently.

On to your point. The "year of the six emperors"???

Smeghead4761
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Another probable contributing factor: the Muslim Arab conquest of North Africa and the Iberian peninsula pushed much of Christian Europe's focus away from the Mediterranean and refocused it north of the Alps. The Byzantines consequently faded in importance, except for times like the Crusades when the northern Europeans needed to transit their territory.
Green2Maroon
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AG
This is a great overview of the accomplishments of the Eastern Roman Empire. You don't endure as a prominent civilization for more than 1,100 years by being a bunch of idiots. They had some very smart people who helped make this happen.
Green2Maroon
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AG
I even went to a Byzantine Rite Catholic church last Sunday. I am already a Catholic so it's not like I would be converting, as would be the case with Orthodoxy.
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