Day of Infamy - 83 Years Ago

1,516 Views | 9 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by oragator
Gunny456
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AG
Pear Harbor. This morning. Lest We Forget.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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AG
This.

This is one of those dates that I just always know. April 18 (Doolittle one year, Yamamoto shoot-down the next year), June 4 (Midway - payback is a *****), June 6 (invasion of continental Europe), August 6 (Hiroshima), August 9 (Nagasaki), April 30 (Hitler suicide), May 8 (VE Day), August 15 (Victory over Japan Day) and September 2 (surrender in Tokyo Bay) are the others.
Gunny456
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The Marksman
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AG
God rest of the souls of the Americans who were killed that day.
ABATTBQ87
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AG
My dad's 90th birthday!
HarleySpoon
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AG
My gate code….so none of my visitors forget.
Smeghead4761
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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

This.

This is one of those dates that I just always know. April 18 (Doolittle one year, Yamamoto shoot-down the next year), June 4 (Midway - payback is a *****), June 6 (invasion of continental Europe), August 6 (Hiroshima), August 9 (Nagasaki), April 30 (Hitler suicide), May 8 (VE Day), August 15 (Victory over Japan Day) and September 2 (surrender in Tokyo Bay) are the others.

September 12 (the Winged Hussars arrive), October 3 (my wife's birthday, reunification of Germany, Battle of Mogadishu, COP Keating)
Smeghead4761
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On a more serious note: I saw somewhere a couple years back that one thing that contributed to the Japanese achieving surprise at Pearl Harbor was that US intelligence either underestimated the IJN's capability for underway refueling, or missed it entirely.

Without underway refueling, the Kido Butai can't get to Hawaii from Japan, and still get back to safe harbor. The carriers, especially the two newest, Shokaku and Zuikaku, could probably do it, but no way the escorting destroyers could.

I haven't been able to find anything definitive on the topic in academic literature as to what USN intel knew on the topic, and to whom they might have passed that info. I did find that the IJN was probably ahead of USN capabilities at the time, and the IJN did actually possess more of the necessary fast oilers than the USN did.

So the general American tendency to underestimate/denigrate Japanese capability and proficiency might well have played a role in any estimate of the IJN's capability in that area.

I doubt I'll be able to find anything definitive without getting into USN intel files in the National Archives. But I di think if the intel had straight said "the IJN lacks the capability for underway refueling" that might have been brought up by the attempts to clear the names of Admiral Kimmel and General Short. Unless it was classified and they didn't have access.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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AG
This is a good point, and yeah, it's likely a deep rabbit hole. Generally speaking, I'm thinking the US absolutely failed on the intelligence front in the years prior to Pearl Harbor. The act of moving the fleet from the West Coast to Hawaii in itself suggests the US felt secure in doing so. While I find FDR's administration as the source of many of our current day economic problems, I don't for a second believe he knew the Japanese would attack when he moved the fleet to Hawaii as some conspiracies believe.
oragator
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Last survivor of the Utah has passed away. I think there are only 15 or so survivors left.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/12/28/warren-upton-pearl-harbor-survivor/77290223007/
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