Civil War what if?

5,349 Views | 39 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by nortex97
JTA1029
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
What if the southern army was fed to content? Would it have made a difference and where and to what extent?

What if the south had been as well armed as the north? Where and to what extent would it have made a difference?
TXAGBQ76
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
What if the Confederate Army had not stopped the rout at the Battle of Bull Run, but instead continued on to DC?
ja86
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
or... what if Joseph Johnston is not wounded at Seven Pines (ie, Lee doesn't get command of the ANV) and keeps on retreating and Richmond is lost....
Jabin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
What if the South had lost the first battle of Bull Run. Would the war have ended shortly after?
BQ_90
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
TXAGBQ76 said:

What if the Confederate Army had not stopped the rout at the Battle of Bull Run, but instead continued on to DC?
i think the fed govt would have evacuated to Philly or NY and rolled on. Just like if Richmond was captured early on the Confederate govt would have moved to Atlanta or Charleston

The US didn't fold when the British took the WH in 1812.

Now does taking DC mean Maryland maybe flips sides, then maybe all the battles end up being in Maryland and not Northern Virginia

I always liked Shelby Foote's comment about the north fighting with one hand tied around their back. They had the capabilities to win no matter what, it was just making the full commitment.
LMCane
How long do you want to ignore this user?
what if we could time travel back to First Bull Run with one M1A3 Abrams tank sporting an American flag?

while interesting- I don't think it really adds much knowledge to come up with meaningless hypotheticals.

what if Hitler died as a baby?!

well, he didn't.
Jabin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
LMCane said:

what if we could time travel back to First Bull Run with one M1A3 Abrams tank sporting an American flag?

while interesting- I don't think it really adds much knowledge to come up with meaningless hypotheticals.

what if Hitler died as a baby?!

well, he didn't.
This I agree with completely.

I've noticed, on this board at least, that most of the hypotheticals seem to favor the South one way or another.
jwoodmd
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Jabin said:

LMCane said:

what if we could time travel back to First Bull Run with one M1A3 Abrams tank sporting an American flag?

while interesting- I don't think it really adds much knowledge to come up with meaningless hypotheticals.

what if Hitler died as a baby?!

well, he didn't.
This I agree with completely.

I've noticed, on this board at least, that most of the hypotheticals seem to favor the South one way or another.
All the what if's can go to the extreme in every case. How about instead of Hitler died as a baby, that his mom and dad did the deed an hour later. Given that the one sperm that conceives is 1 in 100 million in a typical male ejaculation, then the one that became Hitler would have likely not been the one to get to Miss egg and then an entirely different person would have been born.
Rabid Cougar
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
JTA1029 said:

What if the southern army was fed to content? Would it have made a difference and where and to what extent?

What if the south had been as well armed as the north? Where and to what extent would it have made a difference?
The Confederate Army didn't win because of lack of food or armaments, it lost because the Federal Army could replace every soldier killed or wounded thrice over.. made Grant a very successful general.

Sapper Redux
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TXAGBQ76 said:

What if the Confederate Army had not stopped the rout at the Battle of Bull Run, but instead continued on to DC?


Nothing. They were badly bloodied and disorganized. It wouldn't have changed much.
BQ78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
What if McClellan didn't love his army too much and was not a moral coward in the spring of 1862, it could have ended before Lee appeared on the scene and Lee would be most remembered for his Mexican War exploits and capturing John Brown.

Or maybe it was Lincoln's fault micromanaging McDowell's Corps on the Rappahannock and not giving McClellan control of that corps.
Sapper Redux
How long do you want to ignore this user?
They could have given Mac control of the Confederate armies and he would have still retreated.
BQ78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Ha, ha that brings up another what-if for the same time period. If they had a retreating race in the spring of 1862 between Joe Johnston and the Little Napoleon, who could retreat farther and faster?

My money would be on Joe, he was quick on the draw, sometimes Mac just sat still.

Or here is a real one, what if the cannoner that pulled the lanyard that fired the shell that wounded Joe Johnston at Seven Pines had a misfire or didn't fire. I still think as bad as Mac was, he would have ended the war in the spring of 1862 facing Ol' Joe.
Rabid Cougar
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
BQ78 said:

What if McClellan didn't love his army too much and was not a moral coward in the spring of 1862, it could have ended before Lee appeared on the scene and Lee would be most remembered for his Mexican War exploits and capturing John Brown.

Or maybe it was Lincoln's fault micromanaging McDowell's Corps on the Rappahannock and not giving McClellan control of that corps.
IF Grant had been in command of the Army of the Potomac during the 1862 Peninsula Campaign it would have been all over. He would have plowed straight through Magruder at Yorktown /Williamsburg without a blink of an eye. That would have put Johnston in a very bad situation.

It took McClellan nearly a month to move 50 miles (begging for reinforcements the entire time) and not seriously challenged until the Seven Days fights around Richmond. That is roughly the same amount of time it took Grant to move basically the same distance during the Overland Campaign facing a far better opponent than McClellan and fighting 5 or 6 of the worst battles of the entire war.
Noblemen06
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If Jackson isn't wounded at Chancellorsville and Lee gives him the same order he gave Ewell at the end of the first day at Gettysburg, does the CSA ultimately win the battle?
BQ78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
If Cheatam and Cleburne had followed Hood's orders and got their men across the Nashville Pike at Spring Hill on the afternoon of November 29, 1864.
Sapper Redux
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Noblemen06 said:

If Jackson isn't wounded at Chancellorsville and Lee gives him the same order he gave Ewell at the end of the first day at Gettysburg, does the CSA ultimately win the battle?


I think Jackson more than any other Civil War general gets his flaws overlooked. He performed poor to mediocre during the Seven Days and the Antietam Campaign. There's no guarantee he would have had his men dispersed the same way as Ewell or deployed them into battle the same way. By the time Ewell reached Cemetery Ridge, it was nearly dark, his men were exhausted, and the extent of the Union defense was a complete unknown, though already ominously strong in artillery. Maybe Jackson rushes a very depleted division to Culp's Hill, but with no guarantee they can hold it or get there before it was occupied.

Honestly, Ewell gets too much **** for a very difficult decision with a corps that already suffered about 1/3 casualties amongst those who fought in July 1 and was an organizational mess.
Rabid Cougar
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
BQ78 said:

If Cheatam and Cleburne had followed Hood's orders and got their men across the Nashville Pike at Spring Hill on the afternoon of November 29, 1864.
No Franklin.... However, It would have delayed the inevitable. Hood would have pulled a highly questionable move somewhere else.
Rabid Cougar
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Noblemen06 said:

If Jackson isn't wounded at Chancellorsville and Lee gives him the same order he gave Ewell at the end of the first day at Gettysburg, does the CSA ultimately win the battle?
"Take that hill, if practicable."

Lots of discretion in the last two words.
BQ78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

Hood would have pulled a highly questionable move somewhere else.

What do you base that on? Franklin (which was questionable but no more than Lee at Malvern Hill or Gettysburg)? Where else was his decision making questionable? Maybe Ezra Church but other than those two days, I think he was a solid tactician and operational commander.

Hood gets a bad rap IMO, where he flagged was making sure his orders were followed by tired or weak subordinates (July 20, 22 and 29 November 1864).
Sapper Redux
How long do you want to ignore this user?
His whole disposition at Nashville was a mess.
doubledog
How long do you want to ignore this user?
What if the Confederacy had freed all of the slaves, immediately after secession?

The Union would no longer have the moral high ground which would allow Brittan and/or France to enter the war, without repercussions from their own populace, and force the Union to negotiate peace.

This is the only scenario that I see for a Confederate victory/peace.
doubledog
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Rabid Cougar said:

Noblemen06 said:

If Jackson isn't wounded at Chancellorsville and Lee gives him the same order he gave Ewell at the end of the first day at Gettysburg, does the CSA ultimately win the battle?
"Take that hill, if practicable."

Lots of discretion in the last two words.
Then Meade would have withdrawn to Pipe creek (his first choice of the battle site) and Gettysburg would be a footnote in history.
Sapper Redux
How long do you want to ignore this user?
doubledog said:

What if the Confederacy had freed all of the slaves, immediately after secession?

The Union would no longer have the moral high ground which would allow Brittan and/or France to enter the war, without repercussions from their own populace, and force the Union to negotiate peace.

This is the only scenario that I see for a Confederate victory/peace.


There wouldn't have been a Confederacy in the first place if they were interested in ending slavery.
BQ78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
How so? He held Thomas off all day with much fewer men until Bates' Division cracked. What should he have done differently at that point? His defensive position overall wasn't flawed.

He probably wasn't aware of the poor construction of Bates line as he should have been, again not making sure that his generals were building proper entrenchments but Cheatam is as much to blame for that as Hood.
Sapper Redux
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BQ78 said:

How so? He held Thomas off all day with much fewer men until Bates' Division cracked. What should he have done differently at that point?



Thomas spent the day methodically working to go around Hood's left. Hood's position on the first day was drastically overextended with poor support, a hanging left flank, and often bad fields of fire.
BQ78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'm was talking about the second day at Overton Hill, Thomas attacked all day and was repulsed several times until Bate's Division folded at 4p.m. That was a good position most of the day.
doubledog
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Sapper Redux said:

doubledog said:

What if the Confederacy had freed all of the slaves, immediately after secession?

The Union would no longer have the moral high ground which would allow Brittan and/or France to enter the war, without repercussions from their own populace, and force the Union to negotiate peace.

This is the only scenario that I see for a Confederate victory/peace.


There wouldn't have been a Confederacy in the first place if they were interested in ending slavery.
Thank you, that was my point...
Rabid Cougar
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
BQ78 said:

Quote:

Hood would have pulled a highly questionable move somewhere else.

What do you base that on? Franklin (which was questionable but no more than Lee at Malvern Hill or Gettysburg)? Where else was his decision making questionable? Maybe Ezra Church but other than those two days, I think he was a solid tactician and operational commander.

Hood gets a bad rap IMO, where he flagged was making sure his orders were followed by tired or weak subordinates (July 20, 22 and 29 November 1864).
I believe the Nashville campaign was a huge questionable affair. Achieved nothing but accomplish what Sherman wanted to do in the first place; get the Army of the Tessessee out of his way and destroy it.
doubledog
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Rabid Cougar said:

BQ78 said:

Quote:

Hood would have pulled a highly questionable move somewhere else.

What do you base that on? Franklin (which was questionable but no more than Lee at Malvern Hill or Gettysburg)? Where else was his decision making questionable? Maybe Ezra Church but other than those two days, I think he was a solid tactician and operational commander.

Hood gets a bad rap IMO, where he flagged was making sure his orders were followed by tired or weak subordinates (July 20, 22 and 29 November 1864).
I believe the Nashville campaign was a huge questionable affair. Achieved nothing but accomplish what Sherman wanted to do in the first place; get the Army of the Tessessee out of his way and destroy it.
Remember what Sherman said about Hood's army "If they go as far as the Ohio River, I will give them rations"
BQ78
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Trying to lure Sherman back into North Georgia was a solid plan and Sherman did it but was too smart to attack. When Sherman slipped back to Atlanta and was days in front of Hood, all he could do was try to beat a detail of Sherman's forces. So he heads back to Tennessee to split up Sherman so he could defeat one portion in detail and Sherman does what Hood wants. Sherman sent Thomas to Nashville, Schofield to Chattanooga and Sherman stays in Atlanta. Hoods plan almost worked at Spring Hill but all fell apart at Franklin.

As I mentioned many historians give Hood a bad rap and even tell lies about him (Wiley Sword). I don't think Hood had great options but he took the best one. Grant, Stanton, Lincoln were in consternation over Hood's plan, nearly apoplexic, and Grant was on his way to fire Thomas, they were that concerned.

So I credit Hood with a valiant attempt and always had. A few years ago I read something that backed this feeling up, it came from none other than George Thomas who wrote, "Though a failure in the end, who will say that it was not the best plan that could have been adopted by the enemy?"
LMCane
How long do you want to ignore this user?
as others have mentioned, most of these "what ifs" favor the South.

and what if Emory Upton had an entire brigade with him when he attacked at Spotsylvania and broke the Rebel lines near the Muleshoe?

what if the next day when the Union army broke through the rebel lines, the Confederates were not able to bring up a second line (thereby stopping a literal split in their army)

what if Benjamin Butler plowed through Petersburg defenses in June 1864 rather than waiting 24 hours until the rebels sent down reinforcements from Cold Harbor?

you can play this game all day long- and in reality the Union had many more close chances to end the war successfully than the Rebels did.

what if the colored troops instead of running INTO the Crater had run around the sides of it and broken the rebel lines in summer 1864?
CanyonAg77
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Jabin said:


I've noticed, on this board at least, that most of the hypotheticals seem to favor the South one way or another.
You don't have to do a hypothetical where the North won.

So most of the hypotheticals are wondering what it would take to change history. A change where the North won sooner or later than they did, doesn't move the needle.
Rabid Cougar
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
LMCane said:

as others have mentioned, most of these "what ifs" favor the South.

and what if Emory Upton had an entire brigade with him when he attacked at Spotsylvania and broke the Rebel lines near the Muleshoe?

what if the next day when the Union army broke through the rebel lines, the Confederates were not able to bring up a second line (thereby stopping a literal split in their army)

what if Benjamin Butler plowed through Petersburg defenses in June 1864 rather than waiting 24 hours until the rebels sent down reinforcements from Cold Harbor?

you can play this game all day long- and in reality the Union had many more close chances to end the war successfully than the Rebels did.

what if the colored troops instead of running INTO the Crater had run around the sides of it and broken the rebel lines in summer 1864?

It was actually Ledlie's Division from the IX Corps that ran into the Crater instead of around it.
By the time the USCT's were committed to the attack on the Crater it didn't matter where they went. Gordon's counter attacks had already shored up the break through. It was just a matter of how many Federals (black and white) they were going to kill.

And there was no guarantee that if Ferrero's USCT Division were in the initial attack as planned and had trained for that they would not have done the same thing as Ledlie's Division did.
Sapper Redux
How long do you want to ignore this user?
CanyonAg77 said:

Jabin said:


I've noticed, on this board at least, that most of the hypotheticals seem to favor the South one way or another.
You don't have to do a hypothetical where the North won.

So most of the hypotheticals are wondering what it would take to change history. A change where the North won sooner or later than they did, doesn't move the needle.


Really? A change where the North wins in 1862 has huge consequences for emancipation and Reconstruction. If they win in 1864, you likely don't have Lincoln assassinated, changing a lot about Reconstruction and the operations of Congress.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.