Tulsa Massacre

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pmart
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12:09a, 5/31/22
101 years ago on Memorial Day 1921, was the start of what became one of if not the worst "race riots" in American history. I only heard of this a couple of years ago and did not believe the details when I first heard them. Those details are listed below, but are unofficial as there was quite a bit of coverup from the City of Tulsa afterwards.

-around 300 people killed (vast majority black)
-thousands of homes(1,250ish), dozens of city blocks, nearly the whole of the black section of Tulsa was completely destroyed
-use of planes for strafing and even aerial bombardment with TNT and/or kerosene bombs
-hundreds of people deputized and then conducted a raid of the Greenwood neighborhood with drive-by shootings, looting, and systematically burning down homes.
-a wwi machine gun was used against Greenwood citizens
-internment camps of thousands of black survivors
-insurance companies never paid for the destroyed homes and businesses because they did not cover "riots"
-the City of Tulsa tried to make it very difficult for Greenwood residents to return

There are lots of documentaries and podcasts on the subject, but one I enjoyed was American History Tellers, "Tulsa Race Massacre". Although, I am not a fan of the voice overs, they do include a good amount of detail that set the stage for the horrific event. Episode one talks about why Greenwood was so successful which described how people enslaved by the Indian tribes of OK were some of the very few given land allotments post emancipation giving those people a piece of the American dream. It also talks about "Birth of Nation" restarting the Klan, with the help of essentially a marketing team in Mary Tyler and Edward Clarke. It also goes into some detail about how returning black veterans of wwi came back with a taste of freedom from abroad and a sense of pride for fighting for freedom that they were not going to just cower to racist social norms anymore. This is something that you see throughout the civil rights movements that things often start with veterans who put their lives on the line for this country no longer want to tolerate living as second-class citizens. It briefly talks about the Red Summer of 1919, which is worthy of a thread on its own. If you have some time, the first episode is worth a listen.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/tulsa-race-massacre-the-promised-land/id1313596069?i=1000440022243
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ABATTBQ87
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8:29a, 5/31/22
AG
Here's a thread on this topic from last year: good commentary and links to articles

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3202255/1
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to pmart • 8:39a, 5/31/22
AG
Quote:
-around 300 people killed (vast majority black)
25-30 black people died

13 white people

It was a terrible event, but no need to make it 10x worse than it was, Black and white armed mobs confronted each other, a firefight broke out, and it went to hell from there.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 11:26a, 5/31/22

Nm. The evidence does not support such a low estimate.
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Cen-Tex
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11:30a, 5/31/22
AG
No one knows the exact number of fatalities.
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cavscout96
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 11:34a, 5/31/22
AG
Sapper Redux said:
CanyonAg77 said:
Quote:
-around 300 people killed (vast majority black)
25-30 black people died

13 white people

It was a terrible event, but no need to make it 10x worse than it was, Black and white armed mobs confronted each other, a firefight broke out, and it went to hell form there.
No. You seem to be assuming that only those bodies immediately identified are the only ones who died. It was absolutely a massacre started over yet another unjust lynching that resulted in the complete destruction of Black Wall Street.
provide evidence to back your assertion that the death toll was 10X greater.

in the end, it doesn't diminish the devastation, condone the racial component, or excuse the horrific behavior, but hyperbole is not a valid in a reasoned argument.

When and where were the additional 200+ dead found, what were the circumstances? Who classified their manner of death and when was said classification completed.

Example (hypothetical):

the FBI raids a mob establishment.
shots exchanged
2 shot by cops
1 dies of a heart attack

hyperbolic headlines read:

"Three Dead in Botched FBI Raid...."

as an example
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Cen-Tex • 11:34a, 5/31/22
Cen-Tex said:
No one knows the exact number of fatalities.
No, but assuming the absolute lowest number is not justified based on the reams of supporting evidence.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to cavscout96 • 11:37a, 5/31/22
cavscout96 said:
Sapper Redux said:
CanyonAg77 said:
Quote:
-around 300 people killed (vast majority black)
25-30 black people died

13 white people

It was a terrible event, but no need to make it 10x worse than it was, Black and white armed mobs confronted each other, a firefight broke out, and it went to hell form there.
No. You seem to be assuming that only those bodies immediately identified are the only ones who died. It was absolutely a massacre started over yet another unjust lynching that resulted in the complete destruction of Black Wall Street.
provide evidence to back your assertion that the death toll was 10X greater.

in the end, it doesn't diminish the devastation, condone the racial component, or excuse the horrific behavior, but hyperbole is not a valid in a reasoned argument.

When and where were the additional 200+ dead found, what were the circumstances? Who classified their manner of death and when was said classification completed.

Example (hypothetical):

the FBI raids a mob establishment.
shots exchanged
2 shot by cops
1 dies of a heart attack

hyperbolic headlines read:

"Three Dead in Botched FBI Raid...."

as an example
Can you understand that strict record keeping in those events is not likely? And given that the only hospital that served Black Tulsans was burned down and that the local officials didn't care about the casualties in the Black part of town, the idea that we have all the deaths recorded is just not plausible. There were hundreds of casualties and extensive investigations by journalists, the NAACP, the Red Cross, and the Salvation Army pointed to a death toll over 100 at the very least.
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Stive
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11:47a, 5/31/22
AG
Didn't they find a previously unmarked mass grave last year (or maybe year before) that they're still investigating that lent credence to their being more than was originally reported?
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 12:21p, 5/31/22
AG
Sapper Redux said:

Nm. The evidence does not support such a low estimate.
Certainly does not support 300 and mass graves.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to Stive • 12:23p, 5/31/22
AG
Stive said:
Didn't they find a previously unmarked mass grave last year (or maybe year before) that they're still investigating that lent credence to their being more than was originally reported?
No mass graves. There was a history channel special running this morning, with a breathless report of exhuming 10 "previously unknown graves".

Which they found by using funeral home records.
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pmart
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 1:21p, 5/31/22
CanyonAg77 said:
Quote:
-around 300 people killed (vast majority black)
25-30 black people died

13 white people

It was a terrible event, but no need to make it 10x worse than it was, Black and white armed mobs confronted each other, a firefight broke out, and it went to hell from there.


I was using alternative facts. JK, but I did say they were unofficial because the city was greatly trying to downplay the event. Even for those (racist) times it was a huge stain on the city's image. The 300 number comes from contemporary estimates from the Red Cross. Yes, there was a mass grave found and there are suspected more, but it is also believed many bodies were dumped in the river. It is hard to verify records as many people just up and left, never to be heard from again. It is not officially known what even happened to the originally accused Dick Rowland.
By the way, the Red Cross played a big role in the care and recovery of citizens of Tulsa/Greenwood. This was a deviation for their organization which previously only cared for victims of a natural disaster. They avoided race riots and political upheaval.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to pmart • 1:23p, 5/31/22
AG
One person from the Red Cross. Not any type of official investigation.

And please link the finding of any mass grave.
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pmart
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In reply to cavscout96 • 1:26p, 5/31/22
I do appreciate the hyperbole check as a big cause of the massacre was a newspaper article and its salacious content that helped cause the white frenzy.
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cavscout96
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In reply to pmart • 1:30p, 5/31/22
AG
pmart said:
I do appreciate the hyperbole check as a big cause of the massacre was a newspaper article and its salacious content that helped cause the white frenzy.
no worries.

I just know that we, almost all of us, collectively, are often easily swayed by hyperbole.

I'm only on the side of truth. I don't know what it is in this particular instance, but I would like to.

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CanyonAg77
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1:31p, 5/31/22
AG
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/17/fact-check-tulsa-race-massacre-worst-u-s-riot-isnt-ignored-history-books/5341812002/

Quote:
"Although the exact total can never be determined, credible evidence makes it probable that many people, likely numbering between 100-300, were killed during the massacre," according to the findings of Oklahoma's official Tulsa Race Riot Commission.

Historian John Hope Franklin, in a report that accompanies the official state inquiry, wrote: "One-hundred-sixty-eight Oklahomans died that day. They were Black and white, Native American and Hispanic, young and old."

Dr. Clyde Snow, a forensic anthropologist who served as a consultant to the Oklahoma State Medical Examiner, said in his findings for the official report that a "conservative estimate starts with 38 victims who could be identified individually."

Danney Goble, a regional historian and University of Oklahoma professor, said in an overview of the official report that "an accurate death count would just begin at 38; it might end well into the hundreds."

Mayor G. T. Bynum, who was elected mayor of Tulsa in 2016, has launched an investigation to follow up on oral histories of mass graves of Black victims, which, if proved true, would add to the fatalities. New information indicates the site of possibly three mass graves. Researchers will do test excavation of one site on July 13.

Albert Broussard, professor of history at Texas A&M University who has taught courses on race relations, including the Tulsa Race Massacre, for four decades tells USA TODAY there is no evidence putting the death toll higher than just over two dozen. Broussard, who is a co-author of American history textbooks, says the notion that 300 or more died is "greatly exaggerated" and that it is highly unlikely after all these years that any mass graves will be located.

Scott Ellsworth, University of Michigan historian, Tulsa native and author of "Death in the Promised Land: The Tulsa Race riot of 1921," tells USA TODAY flatly that "nobody knows, nobody knows." Reasonable estimates may go as high as 300 based on a report from a local director of American Red Cross at the time, he says. Another contemporary estimate based on reports of the work of gravediggers would indicate at least 112 graves.
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pmart
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 1:31p, 5/31/22
I was referring to the same one you were, the "unmarked" graves.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to pmart • 1:35p, 5/31/22
AG
pmart said:
I was referring to the same one you were, the "unmarked" graves.
So....10 coffins that were noted in funeral home records, is now a "mass grave"????
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pmart
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 1:41p, 5/31/22
CanyonAg77 said:
pmart said:
I was referring to the same one you were, the "unmarked" graves.
So....10 coffins that were noted in funeral home records, is now a "mass grave"????

That does fit at least one definition of the unagreed upon term of mass grave.
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pmart
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 1:44p, 5/31/22
So it could be as low as the official number and as high as the 300 number, but no one knows.
By the way, did you know the official number of COVID deaths in China is a little over 5,000 and the US is over 1million?!? Gotta love this "official" numbers.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to pmart • 1:48p, 5/31/22
AG
pmart said:
CanyonAg77 said:
pmart said:
I was referring to the same one you were, the "unmarked" graves.
So....10 coffins that were noted in funeral home records, is now a "mass grave"????

That does fit at least one definition of the unagreed upon term of mass grave.

A mass grave would have a lot of bodies thrown in a pit. Not 10 people that someone took the time to embalm (presumably) and put in a coffin.

Unmarked has more to do with lack of funds and family members leaving town than some dark conspiracy.
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RGV AG
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 9:45p, 5/31/22
AG
Quote:
Albert Broussard, professor of history at Texas A&M University who has taught courses on race relations, including the Tulsa Race Massacre, for four decades tells USA TODAY there is no evidence putting the death toll higher than just over two dozen. Broussard, who is a co-author of American history textbooks, says the notion that 300 or more died is "greatly exaggerated" and that it is highly unlikely after all these years that any mass graves will be located.
I took a class with Doc. Broussard, I really enjoyed his class. It was something to do with black history, maybe through a time period, might have been around the turn of the century as a lot of time was spent on black history up through WWII. Very interesting course. One thing I will never forget was that he had a recording of a version "Strange Fruit" that was old and not the typical Billie Holiday version, which I had heard before, that was haunting.

Broussard was one of the better profs I experienced and taught an interesting course.
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pmart
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12:43a, 6/1/22
Before, during, after photos.


https://www.history.com/.image/ar_1:1%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_1200/MTcyOTY3Njk2MzA3MDcwNDk2/tulsa-race-riot-gettyimages-615294636.jpg




?s=1400
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tmaggies
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12:36p, 6/1/22
AG
More woke white hate that's what this country really needs.
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pmart
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In reply to tmaggies • 1:49p, 6/1/22
tmaggies said:
More woke white hate that's what this country really needs.

I am not sure what your objection is, unless it is to say that you just prefer not to discuss hard history. We discuss the holocaust and other tragedies. And hopefully that doesn't make you hate all modern day Germans.
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tmaggies
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In reply to pmart • 12:45p, 6/5/22
AG
I obviously don't have a problem with hard history. It all should be told but accurately and anybody that denies that history is being taught with a certain agenda or liberal slant is a fool.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to tmaggies • 1:10p, 6/5/22
Except that teaching hard history usually means dismantling years of fuzzy history powered by myth and the heroes of that fuzzy history are often really unpleasant or difficult people.
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tmaggies
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 1:23p, 6/5/22
AG
Sapper Redux said:
Except that teaching hard history usually means dismantling years of fuzzy history powered by myth and the heroes of that fuzzy history are often really unpleasant or difficult people.




I expected that comment from you. Y'all always take the bait!
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pmart
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In reply to tmaggies • 5:28p, 6/5/22
tmaggies said:
I obviously don't have a problem with hard history. It all should be told but accurately and anybody that denies that history is being taught with a certain agenda or liberal slant is a fool.

I would be happy to hear what you disagree with on the historical events of this tragedy.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to tmaggies • 5:30p, 6/5/22
tmaggies said:
Sapper Redux said:
Except that teaching hard history usually means dismantling years of fuzzy history powered by myth and the heroes of that fuzzy history are often really unpleasant or difficult people.




I expected that comment from you. Y'all always take the bait!


Okay. I'm not sure exactly what you get from it. Good job?
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BoerneGator
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 4:30p, 7/5/22
AG
Sapper Redux said:
Except that teaching hard history usually means dismantling years of fuzzy history powered by myth and the heroes of that fuzzy history are often really unpleasant or difficult people.
It would appear there is some "myth powered" dismantling underway on this very thread. Lord only knows it's been powering a lot fuzzy history that's become widely accepted in certain circles across America today…

Perspective…it helps one find the truth. I recommend it.
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pmart
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In reply to BoerneGator • 8:47p, 7/7/22
BoerneGator said:
Sapper Redux said:
Except that teaching hard history usually means dismantling years of fuzzy history powered by myth and the heroes of that fuzzy history are often really unpleasant or difficult people.
It would appear there is some "myth powered" dismantling underway on this very thread. Lord only knows it's been powering a lot fuzzy history that's become widely accepted in certain circles across America today…

Perspective…it helps one find the truth. I recommend it.

I am perfectly willing to admit my own ignorance, so I will say that I have no idea what you are trying to say. What is the myth and perspective that you speak of?
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BoerneGator
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In reply to pmart • 9:52a, 7/8/22
AG
How can you read this thread and not know the answer to your question? The myth is that 300 people were killed at this incident. Another myth being foisted upon "us" every day, is CRT.

As for perspective, a few decades of critically observing the passing scene will provide all one needs. Are you paying attention? I wonder...
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pmart
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In reply to BoerneGator • 2:20p, 7/8/22
BoerneGator said:
How can you read this thread and not know the answer to your question? The myth is that 300 people were killed at this incident. Another myth being foisted upon "us" every day, is CRT.

As for perspective, a few decades of critically observing the passing scene will provide all one needs. Are you paying attention? I wonder...
i do not like to incorrectly assume what one is talking about, especially from a post with coy and coded language so i asked for clarification. i think the 300 number was already addressed as being unofficial and an estimate, but very few scholars believe the "official" number either and consider it at best a minimum when giving an estimated range. 300 was an estimate given by contemporary testimony from a red cross official. The official Red Cross report states, "The number of dead is a matter of conjecture. Some knowing ones estimate the number of killed as high as 300, other estimates being as low as 55. The bodies were hurriedly rushed to burial, and the records of many burials are not to be found". The national guard commander sent there to reestablish order said the death count would be impossible to know because there were truck loads of bodies being hauled off by civilians and not being accounted for. The "official" number came from the city and state, both which could be considered belligerents in the conflict, so not exactly unbiased or neutral. If we ask Russia how many civilians were killed by their soldiers in Bucha and they will so none.

As far as CRT, I would love to know your definition of it as everyone seems to have a different one and how any of that is related to this event. This event is just one of many similar events, maybe not aerial bombardments, but mass killings and black population dispersals. Rosewood, Red Summer (dozens of cities/towns), Johnson-Jeffries Riots (dozens of cities/towns), and many more. I am not telling you how to feel about these events, that is up to you work out on your own. But, it is part of our American history and worthy of being told on this forum.
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BoerneGator
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In reply to pmart • 8:08p, 7/11/22
AG
pmart said:
BoerneGator said:
How can you read this thread and not know the answer to your question? The myth is that 300 people were killed at this incident. Another myth being foisted upon "us" every day, is CRT.

As for perspective, a few decades of critically observing the passing scene will provide all one needs. Are you paying attention? I wonder...
i do not like to incorrectly assume what one is talking about, especially from a post with coy and coded language so i asked for clarification. i think the 300 number was already addressed as being unofficial and an estimate, but very few scholars believe the "official" number either and consider it at best a minimum when giving an estimated range. 300 was an estimate given by contemporary testimony from a red cross official. The official Red Cross report states, "The number of dead is a matter of conjecture. Some knowing ones estimate the number of killed as high as 300, other estimates being as low as 55. The bodies were hurriedly rushed to burial, and the records of many burials are not to be found". The national guard commander sent there to reestablish order said the death count would be impossible to know because there were truck loads of bodies being hauled off by civilians and not being accounted for. The "official" number came from the city and state, both which could be considered belligerents in the conflict, so not exactly unbiased or neutral. If we ask Russia how many civilians were killed by their soldiers in Bucha and they will so none.

As far as CRT, I would love to know your definition of it as everyone seems to have a different one and how any of that is related to this event. This event is just one of many similar events, maybe not aerial bombardments, but mass killings and black population dispersals. Rosewood, Red Summer (dozens of cities/towns), Johnson-Jeffries Riots (dozens of cities/towns), and many more. I am not telling you how to feel about these events, that is up to you work out on your own. But, it is part of our American history and worthy of being told on this forum.
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