The Socialism of the Holocaust

5,656 Views | 51 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Ulrich
aalan94
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AG
So I'm about 2/3 of the way through this book, which in my case I'm doing the Audiobook:

KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps

First of all, I have to say what an astounding, incredible work this is. It's a painful read. Sometimes you want to just stop. But I've been studying this era for 30 years and now I understand the Holocaust better than I ever have.

There is so much to unpack here, like how the Concentration Camps evolved over time. How the true deliberate murder/extermination policy actually began with Soviet Commisars long before it was applied to the Jews. How there were in fact, very few Jews in the camp until the war kicked off, and they weren't initially imprisoned as Jews, but for other reasons. So much to talk about there, but I'm going to skip to a fascinating point that I sort of felt I knew, but never understood: The socialism of the Holocaust.

Wachsmann in this book goes very deep into the inner workings of the SS. He doesn't really talk about the Nazis and their economic ideology, but I've read enough to know that the socialism behind National Socialism is more than just window dressing. It's not as all-encompassing as in a communist system, but it's there.

However, where socialism REALLY raises its ugly head is in the concentration camps. Beginning with a brick factory at the Sachsenhausen camp, Himmler and his deputy, Oswald Pohl, the head of the SS-WVHA, began to explore ways to turn the SS into an economic engine.

Socialism, of course, has a lot of pseudo definitions, but the official one is government ownership of the means of production. A lot of liberals will use that clinical definition to pretend nothing they do is socialism, but in point of fact, there is no real difference between government "ownership" and government control or direction or mandates. If the government pulls the strings, sets the conditions, controls the finances or excessively regulates an economic activity in a way that sets it apart from the market economy (particularly setting it up at an advantage), then it's socialism.

What the SS did through the WVHA was set up a government run economic system using slave labor in direct competition with private business interests. (A quick note, several historians object to calling concentration camp victims as "slave labor" because in slavery, the owner has a vested economic interest in promoting the life and welfare of his slaves, because they are a perishable asset, whereas concentration camp victims were intentionally worked to death, thus making them perishing assets).

The project started, as I noted, with a brick factory. When the plans were unveiled for the new Germania city development and some of the monumental Nazi building projects, the SS got the idea of cornering the brick market. But immediately they ran into a common fallacy of socialism: non-market-driven entities frequently overpromise and underperform, because they don't have to worry about costs, and because non-market-related priorities distract them from their job. In the case of modern American socialism, this is something like hiring "diversity" consultants or some other nonsense with no relation to the product at the end. But in the case of the Sachsenhausen brick plant, the desire to meet unrealistic timetables, to use camp labor, with its low quality, etc. basically made the factory a flop. The bricks that were made were very poor quality and the project was abandoned.

Of course, they never learned their lesson and over the years, new projects were embraced. This included both civilian-oriented projects like turning out millions of flowerpots mid war, or pots and pans that were substandard and not really useful for the military, but which were forced on the military through the leverage that the SS could bring to bear on the economy, and of course, military-related production. All of it failed. At one point, there was supposed to be a flak gun manufacturing plant at Auschwitz. It never made a single gun.

There were reasons for its failure that were unique to this period in history: The SS had the dual aim of producing economically viable goods while intentionally working its employees to death. You can't fully blame that on socialism, because socialism generally only inadvertently works people to death. But then again, the Kulaks were starved in the Ukraine deliberately too.

But that aside, all the failures intrinsic to socialism were failures here. Now, does that mean you can blame the holocaust on socialism? Certainly not; the concentration camp system existed independent of this economic enterprise, and the gassings would have happened regardless. But to the extent that the Germans turned to slave labor in the camps to engage in economic enterprise and help the war effort, it failed because it was socialistic. A market solution would inherently have required the preservation, proper feeding and non-destructive use of the labor force, particularly insofar as the work needed was skilled work. For the same reason the slave owner does not kill his slave. To borrow a line from "The Ten Commandments" when Moses is protesting about the horrible conditions of the brick makers on the pyramids, the pharoh says he needs the slaves to make more bricks, and Moses replies, "the dead make none."

The movie Schindler's list is a bit stretched in its historical accuracy, but it does contain a crucial point. Schindler cannot run a viable private business if his workers are too starved to do their job, or if they are subject to arbitrary violence and a wholesale elimination of his workforce. The private sector, where it fully used slave labor, had a vested interest in protecting and maintaining its workforce, for exploitation to be sure, but keeping them alive, nonetheless. Socialism, because it is built on a planned economy and has built in forgiveness for failure through the inherent corruption of a monopoly system, does not have any checks. Thus, the socialism of the holocaust was just one more way that the Nazis combined evil and idiocy in the suicidal death spiral they created for the nation they claimed to serve.
Jabin
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Great post, aalan, as always for you.

A couple of questions. First, you say:

Quote:

How the true deliberate murder/extermination policy actually began with Soviet Commisars long before it was applied to the Jews. How there were in fact, very few Jews in the camp until the war kicked off, and they weren't initially imprisoned as Jews, but for other reasons.
I have read that more non-Jews died in the camps than Jews? Is that correct?

I've also read that the number of 6 million Jews having been killed in the camps was a number that was simply made up by Wiesenthal. Is that correct?

Neither question is intended whatsoever to minimize the horror of what the Jews endured. Rather, I'm simply interested in historical accuracy, and also, via my first question, to make sure that we do not forget other groups that suffered the same horror.

Secondly, you make a great point here:

Quote:

Socialism, of course, has a lot of pseudo definitions, but the official one is government ownership of the means of production. A lot of liberals will use that clinical definition to pretend nothing they do is socialism, but in point of fact, there is no real difference between government "ownership" and government control or direction or mandates. If the government pulls the strings, sets the conditions, controls the finances or excessively regulates an economic activity in a way that sets it apart from the market economy (particularly setting it up at an advantage), then it's socialism.
That is 100% true. It seems that the modern left has learned from the National Socialists. Modern leftists abhor the label "socialist", refuse to admit that that is what they are, but nevertheless are clearly socialists. They have learned that it is easier and more effective to coopt large industry than it is for the government to take actual title to the "means of production." And we are seeing that occur in the West where many if not most large corporations' internal policies are frequently more radical than what government regulations specifically require.
pmart
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This really seems like more of an F-16 post and one that would probably be well received over there.

I am not sure how this fits into your narrative, but your comparison of nazi slave labor to say chattel slavery in the Americas does not seem to account for that a big reason why slave owners had a vested interest in the "well-being" of their slaves is the ban of the transatlantic slave trade (a government mandate in of itself). Before the Haitian revolution, there was plenty of people being worked to death in Haiti and in some ways it was cheaper for them to just replace them with new people. The island was considered to be at or near the top of the list of the most profitable land in the world at the time.
Jabin
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I like aalan's post here because it can be discussed more rationally than on F16. Most history involves politics, so it's impossible to discuss history without discussing politics to some extent.

You're correct about the failure of some historians' attempt to distinguish between slavery and what the Nazis did. That caught my attention, also. Back in the 70s a couple of historians or economists tried to argue that slave owners would not treat their slaves badly because it was against their economic interest to do so. That argument seems to be absolutely wrong and is contradicted by almost all historical facts.

There's something about people that is really evil. We far too often treat those in our control far worse than we treat animals, even if it is absolutely in our economic interest not to do so.
aalan94
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AG
Quote:

I have read that more non-Jews died in the camps than Jews? Is that correct?

I've also read that the number of 6 million Jews having been killed in the camps was a number that was simply made up by Wiesenthal. Is that correct?
It's actually the reverse. We feel pretty good that the number of Jews killed is 6 million. It's the non-Jewish number that was basically made up. That was set at 5 million by Simon Wiesenthal, who wanted a large number, but a number that was not larger than the Jews.

It could really be higher, but I suspect it is lower than the Jewish number simply because the mechanics of the holocaust were not anywhere near efficient until 1943-44, and by then, most of the people being gassed were Jews.

As for the chattel slave arguement, that is the case too, but you can't compare Haiti and the deep South. Or maybe I should say not directly. There were plantations in the South that looked a lot like the Carribbean ones, but not all. And even though the owner's interest in preserving his slaves was not absolute, it wasn't a myth either, and there was an aspect of Christianity involved. Slave owners not only did not work their slaves to death (which logically they wouldn't when those slaves had years of productive capacity before them), but in most cases, took care of slaves after they had ceased to be productive. Most larger plantations had older, semi-retired slaves there, who were on reduced work, or in some circumstances, basically retired. There was a deep sense of misgiving morally over slavery in the US that would have been alien to the Nazis.

Famously, Hitler's favorite movie was Gone with the Wind, but he would have thought of all the grandstanding about how the slaves were supposedly treated well (they were, on occasion, but certainly not always), kind of pointless. The South had slaves to produce economically, if they had machines, they would never have brought over slaves. The Third Reich wanted to remove undesirables, and the work aspect was always extraneous to that.
aalan94
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AG
Quote:

Back in the 70s a couple of historians or economists tried to argue that slave owners would not treat their slaves badly because it was against their economic interest to do so. That argument seems to be absolutely wrong and is contradicted by almost all historical facts.
I agree but I don't.

First of all, the evil of slavery is always potential: The owner has the right of life and death over another human. But in reality, it rarely got to that level, and except in the large scale plantations, which were basically industrialized slavery, it rarely did. When you read slave narratives or testimony, you realize how widely it varied, and how many slaves actually said something like "my master wasn't so bad," and some even loved their masters. Now every time you talk about this, you draw out the Confederate apologists who say, see, it was all roses and unicorns.

Clearly it was not, but there was not one slavery but multiple slaveries. I read an account recently where the owner was basically complaining that his slaves were stealing from him and selling things and keeping the money. Because some slaves could keep money. And it's clear from this account that the owner did not think he had the right to take it without taking his slaves to court. This is a far different kind of slavery than from the abject, completely servile slavery we think of when we think of the field hands in Roots. Now, THAT HAPPENED TOO. But in neither case should we assume that one variant was dominant.

I would say generally that size was the most likely determinant of conditions of slaves, and the smaller farms, where the slaves worked alongside the owners in the fields were a less oppressive version of slavery than the industrialized plantations. But even that is very often not 100 percent. If you read the book Freedom Colonies you will be struck by how many large plantation owners even freely gave their slaves land and set them up independently after emancipation. Again, was this common? No. But it happened.

I've digressed very far from the original point, but I think the key point remains the WHY behind the enslavement, and I think for that reason, American slavery is wholly separate from what the Nazis were doing.
mic suede
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Quote:

and how many slaves actually said something like "my master wasn't so bad," and some even loved their masters

It's a shame those lovable slave owners don't get more credit.
pmart
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Jabin said:

I like aalan's post here because it can be discussed more rationally than on F16. Most history involves politics, so it's impossible to discuss history without discussing politics to some extent.
You know, I was pretty naive to this until I got on this board, then it became very apparent that is the way many on here see history.

I guess I am not seeing the point he is trying to make, unless it is to say capitalism is more productive and profitable in a forced labor (slavery) situation than socialism... Why would anyone want to argue for or against that, except maybe F16 who argues which is better, fascism or communism?
CanyonAg77
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AG
mic suede said:

Quote:

and how many slaves actually said something like "my master wasn't so bad," and some even loved their masters

It's a shame those lovable slave owners don't get more credit.

No one is saying that. Keep that level of discourse on the General Board where it belongs.

The base line is that slavery is always evil, regardless if slaves were worked to death or treated like family. A gilded cafe is still a cage.

Admitting that there were wildly differing levels of treatment of slaves is not denying the base evil. It is simply admitting reality.
mic suede
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I'm glad you feel it is a baseline evil.
The person who I quoted and responded to certainly didn't make that feeling clear when they said the evil of slavery was the potential (as opposed to the actual) and when they repeatedly felt the need to defend the concept of the generous slave master while providing zero factual examples and instead implying that a very large minority of slaves (if not most of them) were happy to have such generous, loving owner.
CanyonAg77
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AG
If your reading comprehension is that poor, I can't help you.
CanyonAg77
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AG
mic suede said:

I'm glad you feel it is a baseline evil.

Thanks for the condescension.

It's stupid that I would even have to say that. That slavery is evil, is as self evident as water is wet. But hit and run posters with an agenda, poor reading skills, and the need to virtue signal, make it necessary for commenters to state truisms to avoid the cancel culture mobs.

Obviously, it doesn't always work.
Jabin
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mic suede said:

I'm glad you feel it is a baseline evil.
The person who I quoted and responded to certainly didn't make that feeling clear when they said the evil of slavery was the potential (as opposed to the actual) and when they repeatedly felt the need to defend the concept of the generous slave master while providing zero factual examples and instead implying that a very large minority of slaves (if not most of them) were happy to have such generous, loving owner.
That's not what I read or found implied at all.
aalan94
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AG
Quote:

I'm glad you feel it is a baseline evil.

The person who I quoted and responded to certainly didn't make that feeling clear when they said the evil of slavery was the potential (as opposed to the actual) and when they repeatedly felt the need to defend the concept of the generous slave master while providing zero factual examples and instead implying that a very large minority of slaves (if not most of them) were happy to have such generous, loving owner.
Since I'm being attacked, I'll say what I shouldn't have to say, but which I will to make sure you don't misinterpret me. And this is exactly WHY I don't post this on politics, because the level of bipartisan ignorance on that forum is extreme.

I absolutely abhor slavery, but I also abhor anyone who tries to equate the holocaust with it, because there is nothing in human history, not even the ancient Assyrians flaying captives alive, that can possibly be compared with the holocaust.

But I will push back on the nonsense - and historically disprovable nonsense - that there was one single reality of slavery and it was unremitting brutality. The brutality was there, and I pointed out correctly, that it was always there as potential, and frequently as reality. But if you think slave owners whipped their slaves every day, or brutalized them every day, there is just no evidence of that. Slavery was paternalistic, in a lot of ways, and violence against slaves was meted out, as with children, infrequently, as punishment for an offense. Generally these offenses were stealing, running away, etc. They were not generally whippings for saddistic pleasure, although that did happen, it generally was opposed by other whites, and from a practical effect, was counter-productive.

Now, as we all recognize the immorality of even the authority of the slaveowner, we see these "offenses" as evil, but in point of fact, at that time, very few people, even the slaves, disputed that authority, and therefore disputed the right to punish. It is shocking to us, but what is shocking doesn't make it unhistoric. If you listen to slave narratives, of which I have done a lot, you see this. Sam Houston's slave saying "He didn't beat me often, but when he did, it was because I deserved it" (paraphrasing). Now, that's shocking to me and you, but that's the way he saw the world.

But such violence was not frequent. Many slaves went their entire lives without being whipped, which is why I use the word "potential." They were cowed into their subservient position (often by seeing others whipped), which itself is an evil, but it's an evil of something that IS NOT happening, as opposed to something that is.

As I said, I'm not a southern apologist, but neither do I buy hook-line-and-sinker an extreme view of how slavery worked that is unhistoric. I readily admit that many if not most slaves lifed in extreme miserable degregated lives, but that ultimately - and here is where slavery absolutely differs from the holocaust - the ultimate goal was production, and except in a few extreme cases, the treatment was geared towards maximizing the production. Slaves were a resource first, and human beings second, which is horrible, but the plantation owners recognized the inverse relation between brutality and production and adapted accordingly.

There is plenty of historical evidence for the brutality of slavery, but there is indeed evidence that on a day-to-day basis, throughout much of the South, that was hardly the typical experience. I'll just provide one example that comes to mind, but I could pull others. It's the remembrances of one of Jefferson Davis' slaves. Now, there are reasons to believe his account was not typical, but it is complementary of Davis, and paints him in a good light. Now, I actually think Davis is one of the great villains of American history, but it shows a very different view of slavery from the one-size-fits all version, which in most cases is based on SECONDARY, not primary sources:

Ex-Slave George Johnson | "Confederate President Jefferson Davis was my master."

Another example of this phenomenon. It was much more common of house slaves and slaves in smaller plantations, to speak well of their owners:
HOUSE Slave (???) Alice Gaston | Nothing but kind words

Now, don't get me wrong, you can find plenty of slaves with horrible rememberances. But the key point is that the diversity did exist, and the myth that there was one experience is easily disproven.
CanyonAg77
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AG
Well said, alaan. It's frustrating to have drive by posters wander by, who don't have any perspective or knowledge.

As you said, the threat of punishment was more widespread than the actual punishment. You might say it is analogous to terrorism today. Only a small number are hurt or killed by terrorists, but the threat modifies the behavior of all of us.
aalan94
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AG
Note I'm not defending the old canard of happy slaves. That's clearly nonsense. Slaves who weren't in misery were more resigned to their fates or knew that other slaves had it far worse, so were comparatively positive.

But again, to the point, this is about the holocaust, not US slavery, and there is no way anyone who is intellectually honest can say the two are in any way on the same level.
pmart
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If i may give some constructive criticism to the case you are trying to make, i would say that you are not seeing the forest for the trees. And that there has to be much better examples of the deficiencies of socialism than that one version of slave labor produces less than other versions of slave labor. i feel like it is stating the obvious to say that it does not make a very convincing argument.

Yes, of course there were different levels of treatment to the enslaved during the centuries of enslavement in the deep south, just as there were different levels of treatment to the enslaved of the Holocaust in the Nazi era. I think what you are missing is the level of insanity that society has to get to to think casting one group of humans as lesser than another and should be subjugated to the whims of the "superior" group. Yes one plantation owner may have treated their enslaved better than their neighbor, but that does not mean the neighbor lashing their own enslaved people until their flesh was hanging from their backs did not have an effect on all who heard the tale. Or a person trying to escape for their freedom, but was caught and lynched and dismembered just to be a warning for any other enslaved person in the area. i do not think this is much different than a Holocaust survivor who may not have had to suffer as much as others, but still feels the tremendous deprivation and abuse of subjugation.

I too have listened to many of the first hand accounts of formerly enslaved people and you are not wrong to say that some some conveyed strong feelings towards their former captors, owners, masters, etc. i have heard some even say that they had more food and things when they were enslaved then they did at the time of the recordings when they were free. But, i also heard them say that they would take freedom over any of the things they had when they were enslaved. This is also one of those things that should be obvious, but just in case there are any apologist out there, what would it take for you to be okay with being a slave to another? i think most would not trade their freedom for anything.
pmart
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aalan94 said:

As I said, I'm not a southern apologist, but neither do I buy hook-line-and-sinker an extreme view of how slavery worked that is unhistoric. I readily admit that many if not most slaves lifed in extreme miserable degregated lives, but that ultimately - and here is where slavery absolutely differs from the holocaust - the ultimate goal was production, and except in a few extreme cases, the treatment was geared towards maximizing the production. Slaves were a resource first, and human beings second, which is horrible, but the plantation owners recognized the inverse relation between brutality and production and adapted accordingly.
This is where I really do not follow the argument that you are trying to make. How does a slaveowner encourage his enslaved people to produce more? What is the incentive? Wages were minimal to none. the ultimate incentive was emancipation, but overall was very rare. Even freedmen could find themselves back in bondage. Those who did not, found their rights extremely limited. Slave owners could promise more rations or slightly better living conditions, but anything more starts to heavily cut into profits. This is where i think many would assume that fear and intimidation filled the gap. This leads one to believe that your conclusion is that subjugation, fear, and intimidation is the way to a healthy capitalist society as long as your do not exterminate the workforce. I just do not understand why you would not say that both examples of slave labor are horrible versions of society without trying to pit one against the other.

However, I will provide some evidence to support your statement that slavery in the US was about production; many of those firsthand accounts (at least in Texas) from the formerly enslaved described how they saw many black people hanging from trees immediately after emancipation. To those slave owners, they no longer had use for those people and just as well see them dead than have to live amongst them. This may also help explain the many discrimanatory laws created after the emancipation and later after reconstruction ended.
aalan94
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AG
First of all, I will take your derailment of my thread to another thread.

Quote:

i would say that you are not seeing the forest for the trees. And that there has to be much better examples of the deficiencies of socialism than that one version of slave labor produces less than other versions of slave labor
I literally created a thread on a tree: the particular variant of socialism that took place by the SS during the holocaust. I am happy to discuss the forest, as I said, elsewhere.

Eliminatus
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AG
Ole Mr. suede has yet to return it seems.

stoneyjr78
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AG
So, how many kids will be taught about the holocaust now in Texas since it falls under Critical Race Theory? What books will they be reading? There wasn't enough cancel culture going around that now we have to add a whole bunch more? Everything being discussed under this topic is Critical Race Theory that kids won't be able to learn about in schools. It's started already. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2021/10/14/southlake-teachers-told-to-include-opposing-views-if-providing-books-on-holocaust-nbc-reports/

How about this continues to get discussed and we reverse the cancel culture laws just passed so you can discuss with your kids what they are learning in school.
hut-ho78
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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stoneyjr78 said:

So, how many kids will be taught about the holocaust now in Texas since it falls under Critical Race Theory? What books will they be reading? There wasn't enough cancel culture going around that now we have to add a whole bunch more? Everything being discussed under this topic is Critical Race Theory that kids won't be able to learn about in schools. It's started already. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2021/10/14/southlake-teachers-told-to-include-opposing-views-if-providing-books-on-holocaust-nbc-reports/

How about this continues to get discussed and we reverse the cancel culture laws just passed so you can discuss with your kids what they are learning in school.
This is a misunderstanding of the law. 3979 only deals with the social studies curriculum and only with current events/controversial topics. There is no reason that ELA teachers should be having these conversations, especially as it pertains to 3979.
Sapper Redux
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

stoneyjr78 said:

So, how many kids will be taught about the holocaust now in Texas since it falls under Critical Race Theory? What books will they be reading? There wasn't enough cancel culture going around that now we have to add a whole bunch more? Everything being discussed under this topic is Critical Race Theory that kids won't be able to learn about in schools. It's started already. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2021/10/14/southlake-teachers-told-to-include-opposing-views-if-providing-books-on-holocaust-nbc-reports/

How about this continues to get discussed and we reverse the cancel culture laws just passed so you can discuss with your kids what they are learning in school.
This is a misunderstanding of the law. 3979 only deals with the social studies curriculum and only with current events/controversial topics. There is no reason that ELA teachers should be having these conversations, especially as it pertains to 3979.


The law is extremely broad and is easy to hold over teachers and threaten them. When you can't teach the actual history of this country because it hurts feelings, this is the kind of crap you open the door to.
BQ78
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AG
They are being purposely obtuse in opposition of the new law.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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Sapper Redux said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

stoneyjr78 said:

So, how many kids will be taught about the holocaust now in Texas since it falls under Critical Race Theory? What books will they be reading? There wasn't enough cancel culture going around that now we have to add a whole bunch more? Everything being discussed under this topic is Critical Race Theory that kids won't be able to learn about in schools. It's started already. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2021/10/14/southlake-teachers-told-to-include-opposing-views-if-providing-books-on-holocaust-nbc-reports/

How about this continues to get discussed and we reverse the cancel culture laws just passed so you can discuss with your kids what they are learning in school.
This is a misunderstanding of the law. 3979 only deals with the social studies curriculum and only with current events/controversial topics. There is no reason that ELA teachers should be having these conversations, especially as it pertains to 3979.


The law is extremely broad and is easy to hold over teachers and threaten them. When you can't teach the actual history of this country because it hurts feelings, this is the kind of crap you open the door to.
Except that's not what the law does at all. I'm incorrectly labelled a raging liberal by many on this site and that law doesn't prevent the teaching of history.
Sapper Redux
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Sapper Redux said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

stoneyjr78 said:

So, how many kids will be taught about the holocaust now in Texas since it falls under Critical Race Theory? What books will they be reading? There wasn't enough cancel culture going around that now we have to add a whole bunch more? Everything being discussed under this topic is Critical Race Theory that kids won't be able to learn about in schools. It's started already. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2021/10/14/southlake-teachers-told-to-include-opposing-views-if-providing-books-on-holocaust-nbc-reports/

How about this continues to get discussed and we reverse the cancel culture laws just passed so you can discuss with your kids what they are learning in school.
This is a misunderstanding of the law. 3979 only deals with the social studies curriculum and only with current events/controversial topics. There is no reason that ELA teachers should be having these conversations, especially as it pertains to 3979.


The law is extremely broad and is easy to hold over teachers and threaten them. When you can't teach the actual history of this country because it hurts feelings, this is the kind of crap you open the door to.
Except that's not what the law does at all. I'm incorrectly labelled a raging liberal by many on this site and that law doesn't prevent the teaching of history.


It is absolutely worded vaguely enough to cause people to refrain from addressing difficult topics least they're accused of violating the law. The whole thing is intended to circumvent an actual discussion of the history of race in America. Where it is specific, it's blatantly ideological in how the information must be presented.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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I've not found that this law limits anything I can teach nor am I fearful about being accused of breaker this law. Too many cowards in education or they can't read.
Sapper Redux
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

I've not found that this law limits anything I can teach nor am I fearful about being accused of breaker this law. Too many cowards in education or they can't read.


Really? So dictating how slavery must be presented to fit in an ideological lens isn't limiting?
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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Sapper Redux said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

I've not found that this law limits anything I can teach nor am I fearful about being accused of breaker this law. Too many cowards in education or they can't read.


Really? So dictating how slavery must be presented to fit in an ideological lens isn't limiting?
How does this law change how we teach slavery? what must be excluded?

My kids are still reading primary souces like those regarding the Punch Case, Key Case, Dunmore's Proclamation, and so on.
Sapper Redux
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Sapper Redux said:

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

I've not found that this law limits anything I can teach nor am I fearful about being accused of breaker this law. Too many cowards in education or they can't read.


Really? So dictating how slavery must be presented to fit in an ideological lens isn't limiting?
How does this law change how we teach slavery? what must be excluded?

My kids are still reading primary souces like those regarding the Punch Case, Key Case, Dunmore's Proclamation, and so on.


As an example, in the law it says,

"A teacher, administrator, or other employee of a state agency, school district, or open-enrollment charter school may not:

AArequire or make part of a course inculcation the concept that:
…
"The advent of slavery in the
territory that is now the United States constituted the true founding of the United States or
(viii)With respect to their relationship to American values, slavery and racism are anything other than deviations from, betrayals of, or failures to live up to the authentic founding principles of the United States, which include liberty and equality;"

That's not a historical position or a matter of fact. That's ideology and opinion. And the idea that slavery was not an "authentic founding principle" would certainly confuse many revolutionaries from places like South Carolina, Virginia, and Georgia.
BQ78
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AG
I don't see why you would object to that. Slavery was in existence in North America for 160 years before the US, so we didn't start it we inherited it. To your point it was widely accepted by the founding fathers but that acceptance was in conflict with our founding principles. So you shouldn't have an issue with the second statement either. The sometimes hypocrisy of the founding fathers was not unlike my body my choice when it comes to abortion but not vaccines.
Sapper Redux
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BQ78 said:

I don't see why you would object to that. Slavery was in existence in North America for 160 years before the US, so we didn't start it we inherited it. To your point it was widely accepted by the founding fathers but that acceptance was in conflict with our founding principles. So you shouldn't have an issue with the second statement either. The sometimes hypocrisy of the founding fathers was not unlike my body my choice when it comes to abortion but not vaccines.


Except it wasn't seen as being in conflict with founding principles by a huge percentage of the founding generation. It wasn't seen as a conflict save by a loud minority for nearly a century after the Revolution. And even after slavery ended, basic legal equality for all still took another century. Whether we've achieved equality in any meaningful sense should be debated in class. But it can't be. To the original point, the framers were perfectly fine with the dichotomy between "all men are created equal" and slavery because of how they viewed race. John Locke, the father of classical liberalism, was the same. And it's quite the cop-out to say, "well it was already here." For one thing, so what? The decision was made to incorporate it into the nation. Secondly, the study of history in school shouldn't make ideological statements that prevent critical examination of the past and how it relates to the present. The law forces one interpretation of race and slavery in the US. That interpretation has far more to do with modern politics than actually educating students.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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Quote:

Whether we've achieved equality in any meaningful sense should be debated in class.


This is debatable?
Sapper Redux
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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

Quote:

Whether we've achieved equality in any meaningful sense should be debated in class.


This is debatable?


Yes
BQ78
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AG
I thought equality is so twentieth century, aren't we in to equity now in the oh so advanced 21st century?
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