The JFK Assassination

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Waltonloads08
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New to the subject.

I was born in 1985, so my earliest memories are the end of the Cold War, not the beginning. I've always assumed the official story of Lee Harvey Oswald being a lone nut assassin with no connection to the US government was the correct one. Now, after some study, I'm a bit taken aback with the attitudes of POTUS's own Joint Chiefs, CIA, and FBI at the time leading up to JFK's death. It's all EXTREMELY convenient for many powerful people. This isn't to say I'm positive he was killed by our own government- but I'm definitely not positive he wasn't.

Anyone care to comment?
expresswrittenconsent
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I think there have been a few prior threads about it here. I think the Posner book (case closed) is correct.
BQ78
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That the government in multiple agencies could assassinate a president and get away with it for over 55 years requires a level of competence and expertise that is hard to fathom with our government.
Rabid Cougar
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Waltonloads08 said:

New to the subject.

I was born in 1985, so my earliest memories are the end of the Cold War, not the beginning. I've always assumed the official story of Lee Harvey Oswald being a lone nut assassin with no connection to the US government was the correct one. Now, after some study, I'm a bit taken aback with the attitudes of POTUS's own Joint Chiefs, CIA, and FBI at the time leading up to JFK's death. It's all EXTREMELY convenient for many powerful people. This isn't to say I'm positive he was killed by our own government- but I'm definitely not positive he wasn't.

Anyone care to comment?
Oswald did it and he had help. It wasn't the government though.
BQ78
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Cruz's Dad?
Guitarsoup
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BQ78 said:

That the government in multiple agencies could assassinate a president and get away with it for over 55 years requires a level of competence and expertise that is hard to fathom with our government.
This, exactly this.

1. LHO is a nut that no one wanted. He had previously attempted an assassination of a government official. He is pretty much the last person that anyone (CIA, FBI, Castro, KGB, Mafia) would hire or collaborate with to do this, because he wasn't smart and he wasn't reliable or stable.

2. Keeping a secret of this magnitude with as many people as would be needed to be involved is preposterous for the government. You have guys that were paid ok, but government workers outside of congress and the President aren't getting wealthy. Someone involved in this with evidence of what really happened would receive generational wealth from the book deals, movie deals, etc. To think no one with that knowledge cashed in on that is beyond ridiculous.

3. Keeping it a secret if it was the Mafia is even dumber. We have thousands if not millions of hours of taped surveillance recordings of the mafia from the 60s, 70s and beyond. Guess what no one talked about? The time they pulled the greatest hit of all time off by killing the President. Never a topic of conversation. We had tons of mob guys roll over on other mob guys. Sammy the Bull, Henry Hill, etc. They never talked about knocking off JFK, and certainly knowledge and evidence of that would set them on easy street. We even had an FBI agent infiltrate the Mafia in Donnie Brasco.

4. We also know for a fact that there were soviet/KGB operations of disinformation surrounding the JFK assassination. This disinformation campaign was the basis of Jim Garrison's inquiry into a conspiracy.

5. There is not any evidence that anyone was involved at all other than LHO.

6. Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense!
IDAGG
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Guitarsoup said:



2. Keeping a secret of this magnitude with as many people as would be needed to be involved is preposterous for the government. You have guys that were paid ok, but government workers outside of congress and the President aren't getting wealthy. Someone involved in this with evidence of what really happened would receive generational wealth from the book deals, movie deals, etc. To think no one with that knowledge cashed in on that is beyond ridiculous.

3. Keeping it a secret if it was the Mafia is even dumber. We have thousands if not millions of hours of taped surveillance recordings of the mafia from the 60s, 70s and beyond. Guess what no one talked about? The time they pulled the greatest hit of all time off by killing the President. Never a topic of conversation. We had tons of mob guys roll over on other mob guys. Sammy the Bull, Henry Hill, etc. They never talked about knocking off JFK, and certainly knowledge and evidence of that would set them on easy street. We even had an FBI agent infiltrate the Mafia in Donnie Brasco.

Exactly this. Besides, if the mob really wanted to assassinate JFK because Bobby was actually going after them they would have known that if they were implicated in offing JFK, it would result not in harassment, which is what Bobby was doing, but annihilation instead. The political will to obliterate the mob and anyone associated with it would have been been there in spades.
CanyonAg77
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Stop reading conspiracy books written by nuts and/or people looking to make a quick buck.
Waltonloads08
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CanyonAg77 said:

Stop reading conspiracy books written by nuts and/or people looking to make a quick buck.


It's just for fun, I'm not committing my life to JFK trutherism.

The CIA had many reasons to get rid of JFK and justify it as saving the country. Conspiracies is what they do as a normal course of business. Do I think it's the most likely thing?

Probably not.

Is it impossible?

No.

Waltonloads08
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BQ78 said:

That the government in multiple agencies could assassinate a president and get away with it for over 55 years requires a level of competence and expertise that is hard to fathom with our government.


Probably right.

Still not impossible if only a few people are involved, and the Cold War and nuclear annihilation felt like a real possibility.
Guitarsoup
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Waltonloads08 said:

BQ78 said:

That the government in multiple agencies could assassinate a president and get away with it for over 55 years requires a level of competence and expertise that is hard to fathom with our government.


Probably right.

Still not impossible if only a few people are involved, and the Cold War and nuclear annihilation felt like a real possibility.
If only a few people are involved, an agency wasn't doing it. A few people were doing it.

Further, it is ridiculous to think that despite multiple major investigations lasting for decades were unable to uncover a single shred of evidence of this happening further it is ridiculous that no one came forward to cash in on what would have been the biggest story ever.

Think about Mark Felt. He was Deepthroat in the Watergate scandal and while he remained hidden for decades, he came forward to cash in on it before his death to benefit his family.

With multiple people involved, the first person to turn would be the person that gets the great deal. Movies, Books, etc. The guy that simply confirms the account goes to jail.

With millions of dollars and fame on the line, it is ridiculous to think that everyone kept quiet for 56 years.

All goes back to Occam's Razor. The explanation that requires the fewest assumptions is usually correct. There is not any evidence that anything happened other than LHO, acting alone, shot and killed President Kennedy. There is no evidence pointing to anything other than that, and all other theories require a significant number of assumptions because there are no facts supporting those theories other than motive.
DE4D
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My greatgrandmother was convinced the true root of the assassination was Lady Bird and Texas oil money.
Guitarsoup
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sw@n said:

My greatgrandmother was convinced the true root of the assassination was Lady Bird and Texas oil money.
A lot of people floated things like that out there, especially considering what a terrible person Lyndon Johnson was, but the amount evidence supporting that is equal to the amount of evidence supporting that I killed JFK.
DE4D
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Thats cause we know how to keep things quiet down these ways
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Guitarsoup
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If you read Caro's series of books (and you should because they are great) it is understandable why Jackie felt that way.
Mort Rainey
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This is the answer to all 9/11 conspiracies too. Think about how many people would have to keep silent and not try to cash in on the secret of a lifetime. Watergate had like 7 people who knew what was up and they couldn't keep that a secret.

And again to one of the points above, the government can't get anything right, but they somehow pulled off the most shocking event in modern world history? Please
DE4D
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1st rule to successful conspiracy execution... bury the help.
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Fonzie Scheme
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I've read Posner's book and Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History". For the latter, don't just get "Parkland". RH is Parkland plus Bugliosi's examining many of the prevailing theories.

The conspiracy industry (and it is definitely that) is a self-perpetuating machine. So much junk has been written about the JFK assassination that they start quoting each other, so it just goes on. I'm sure some believe the nonsense they spew but most are in it for the buck. And it all started with Mark Lane, who's nothing more than a bald-faced liar.
terata
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I found and still find frame 313 of the Zapruder film fascinating. Just fascinating.
wasntme
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terata said:

I found and still find frame 313 of the Zapruder film fascinating. Just fascinating.
Greer & Kellerman
RGV AG
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I am convinced that lbj was either a large part of having Kennedy killed or those that manipulated him and basically owned him set the deal up, possibly with CIA involvement.

The one person in that circle who was crooked as a snake and personified the evilness of a vile corrupt politician was Johnson. Every political ascension he had was based on fraud, violence, threats, and blackmail. Kennedy was going to dump Johnson's lying and cheating ass for the next election and he knew. Kennedy was likely to leave Vietnam, and even if he didn't he was not going to go down the spending craziness trail that Johnson did in Vietnam.

Whether they did it or not, those that supported Johnson, for example Brown and Root, sure made out well in the aftermath of Kennedy dying. Who had the biggest motive to kill Kennedy? Some crazed/deranged stumblebum that probably had a hard time tying his shoes and brushing his teeth without help? No, not really.

The Occam's razor theory is very convenient in something like this deal. There are quite a few oddities and complexities to Oswald being able to pull this off. Not to mention the tie in to supposedly failing to assassinate an arch enemy of JFK's 6 months before.

I am no expert on this deal at all, and have only read the casual fans list of books and other things. So maybe I am wrong, but damm Johnson and those that supported him sure made out real well due to a social malcontent making some terrific shots.

Buck Compton
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The shots really weren't all that "terrific". Go see the plaza in person.
Fonzie Scheme
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What books have you read?
RGV AG
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Read the Posner one, the on by Manchester, the one that wants to prove Johnson did it and couple of other ones. Nothing too deep.
IDAGG
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RGV AG said:

I am convinced that lbj was either a large part of having Kennedy killed or those that manipulated him and basically owned him set the deal up, possibly with CIA involvement.

The one person in that circle who was crooked as a snake and personified the evilness of a vile corrupt politician was Johnson. Every political ascension he had was based on fraud, violence, threats, and blackmail.

While I have always believed Oswald acted alone, my total hatred of LBJ wants me to believe he had a hand in it. Confirmation bias for sure.
RGV AG
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I have seen it. The thing I question is supposedly he made those shots, with an old Italian bolt action, and just had no buck fever or anything else. But several months before he missed about a 90 foot shot at a stationary target who apparently didn't move for several seconds and then he, Oswald, was so spooked that he ran off hiding his rifle to come back later and pick it up.

And that target was a dire foe of JFK. I am not questioning so much the physical part of it, but what after the fact, based on hearsay, was this deal attributed to Oswald? Seems an awfully convenient way to establish Oswald as assassin.
Guitarsoup
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Quote:

I am convinced that lbj was either a large part of having Kennedy killed or those that manipulated him and basically owned him set the deal up, possibly with CIA involvement.

And of all the people that would need to be involved for LBJ and Texas Oil and/or Communications money to work with the CIA to pull in LHO, there is no evidence and there is no one willing to talk 45+ years after LBJ's death? Yeah, not that plausible.

Death bed confession? Write a manuscript and leave it for their children to publish? Nothing.

Does LBJ's power reach for 50 years beyond the grave?



Quote:

The one person in that circle who was crooked as a snake and personified the evilness of a vile corrupt politician was Johnson. Every political ascension he had was based on fraud, violence, threats, and blackmail. Kennedy was going to dump Johnson's lying and cheating ass for the next election and he knew. Kennedy was likely to leave Vietnam, and even if he didn't he was not going to go down the spending craziness trail that Johnson did in Vietnam.

There are tons of people that had motives to kill Kennedy. There are people that stand to benefit from any President's death. But benefitting from it and actually working to make it happen are two very, very different things.


Quote:

Whether they did it or not, those that supported Johnson, for example Brown and Root, sure made out well in the aftermath of Kennedy dying.
So it was Dick Cheaney? He's not a stranger to shooting someone in the head.

Like I said, lots of people stand to benefit from any major political leader's death. But that doesn't mean they were involved.

Kennedy's case was an interesting one because there are sides that absolutely hate each other that stood to benefit. So there are conspiracies all around. The communists, the anti-communists, the gays (yes, a real theory involves gay men being behind the assassination), CIA, LBJ, KGB, FBI, Mafia, etc, etc.

Quote:


Who had the biggest motive to kill Kennedy? Some crazed/deranged stumblebum that probably had a hard time tying his shoes and brushing his teeth without help? No, not really.
When talking about a deranged person, they don't need to have the biggest motive to kill them.

Did JWBooth stand to gain the most from Lincoln's death? No.
Did Leon C have the most to gain from McKinley's death? Nope, he was just an anarchist that many thought was crazy.
Did Squeaky Fromme have the most to gain from Ford's death? Nope, deranged Manson follower.
Did Hinckley have the most to gain from Reagan's death? Nope, deranged ******* obsessed with 13-year old Jodie Foster.

Who had the biggest motive to kill someone that is the leader of the free world is irrelevant considering that the only people that have ever attempted to kill the POTUS are people that don't have the biggest motive.



Quote:

The Occam's razor theory is very convenient in something like this deal.
There is no evidence that anything happened other than LHO acted alone. None. Not even a shred. For literally any other explanation of what killed Kennedy, you have to make huge logical leaps.

But that is also human nature. We don't want to believe that a worthless loser like Oswald could kill the most powerful man in the world. But all evidence we have uncovered over the last 65 years points to that happening.


Quote:

There are quite a few oddities and complexities to Oswald being able to pull this off. Not to mention the tie in to supposedly failing to assassinate an arch enemy of JFK's 6 months before.
Ted Walker was a lot of things, but I don't think he rose to the level of JFK's Arch Enemy.



Quote:

I am no expert on this deal at all, and have only read the casual fans list of books and other things. So maybe I am wrong, but damm Johnson and those that supported him sure made out real well due to a social malcontent making some terrific shots.
Teddy Roosevelt did pretty well for himself with McKinley's death, too.

Mort Rainey
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RGV AG said:

I am convinced that lbj was either a large part of having Kennedy killed or those that manipulated him and basically owned him set the deal up, possibly with CIA involvement.

The one person in that circle who was crooked as a snake and personified the evilness of a vile corrupt politician was Johnson. Every political ascension he had was based on fraud, violence, threats, and blackmail. Kennedy was going to dump Johnson's lying and cheating ass for the next election and he knew. Kennedy was likely to leave Vietnam, and even if he didn't he was not going to go down the spending craziness trail that Johnson did in Vietnam.

Whether they did it or not, those that supported Johnson, for example Brown and Root, sure made out well in the aftermath of Kennedy dying. Who had the biggest motive to kill Kennedy? Some crazed/deranged stumblebum that probably had a hard time tying his shoes and brushing his teeth without help? No, not really.

The Occam's razor theory is very convenient in something like this deal. There are quite a few oddities and complexities to Oswald being able to pull this off. Not to mention the tie in to supposedly failing to assassinate an arch enemy of JFK's 6 months before.

I am no expert on this deal at all, and have only read the casual fans list of books and other things. So maybe I am wrong, but damm Johnson and those that supported him sure made out real well due to a social malcontent making some terrific shots.


So he pulled off the greatest assassination heist in history, perfect execution, flawless cover up, and its never come out. This is the same guy who literally had his presidency derailed by his colossal **** up of the Vietnam War. No one who screws up the optics and execution of a war that badly is pulling off the JFK assassination and getting away with it. Sorry.


This is the same thing i think when people talk about the Clintons "having killed people". Right, they've actually murdered political enemies, got away with it, but were somehow unable to take out the three people who knew about the Lewinski affair before it went public? That scandal essentially ended the Clinton presidency, and these diabolical geniuses just weren't able to handle that one?
Mort Rainey
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RGV AG said:

Who had the biggest motive to kill Kennedy? Some crazed/deranged stumblebum that probably had a hard time tying his shoes and brushing his teeth without help? No, not really.
See Mark David Chapman. This answers the question about him taking a shot at Kennedy's political enemy too. Some people are just out of their minds and are only interested in some macabre version of fame
DE4D
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I am so happy I wondered down to the History board.

this thread is giving me so many bunny trails to chas
“Nothing is more powerful than an idea whose time has come.”
RGV AG
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I have always found your posts on this topic, over the years, interesting and informative. Without a doubt you have much more information and knowledge about the assassination than I do. Your confidence in your positions and opinions bears merit due to your knowledge. To clarify, I have never come close to manifesting anything other than basically my self formed amateur opinion, but one to which I am entitled nonetheless.

From my standpoint, and my basic premise is that there are too many questions, too many coincidences, too many oddities, and too many odd characters involved in this situation to give me absolute certainty that there was not some kind of plot or manipulation, maybe not an outright far reaching consipiracy, but an orchestrated effort to have JFK killed. I could very well be wrong.

One thing that has always stood out to me, and I would value your opinion on this episode of the mystery, is Oswald's trip to Mexico City. I have read quite a bit obout this situation and have some personal knowledge, not of anything related ot Oswald, of CIA and MexGov policies and actions during those times. Due to that, I am perplexed at how Oswald flew so under the radar given his background.

My fathers family is from Mexico City, it is where I was raised through 14 years old, and my parents lived there from 1960 through 1983, save for a brief 18 month stint when I was born in Houston. Ironically my parents were married in Mexico City a few weeks after JFK was assassinated.

From the 1950's through forever anyone with any sense, especially the expat community, knew that the USSR embassy was under incredible surveillance by the CIA and the Mexican spy agencies that were run by the CIA. The CIA had 3 Mexican presidents compromised, one of which was the security chief at that time and was later to be president. Following the Cuban revolution the Cuban embassy and its personnel were basically treated the same way by the CIA, and there was a huge CIA presence there as well. (in the early 00's I found out one of my childhood friends dad was way up with the CIA in the 70's).

The Mexican government, by its own volition and also at the behest of the gringo's, has always been extremely worried about leftist movements and communists. The security, spying, monitoring, and just overall covering of the Soviet and Cuban actions and facilities was huge in Mexico City.

For instance, my pediatrician an Anglo/Mexican, dual citizen Brit/Mex, went to cuba in 61' or 62' on a medical mission. When her group returned to Mexico they were are "interned" for a couple of days and just short of outright tortured as to what they did and who they saw in Cuba. In her case, she was cut loose early as it turned out she treated one of the Mexican security guys kids and when he found out she was held, he cut her loose.

Other expats that had contact with Cubans or Russians were immediately questioned and watched, phone lines were tapped issues with the MexGov immediately arose. Everyone knew, even us kids, to avoid the Russians, Cubans, and Eastern Europeans like the plague. White Russians left Mexico because of harassment, so did many Jews. The Mexican security services never trusted them much and did not welcome them.

Thus, what did Oswald go and do in Mexico City? And how does the CIA and Mexican Security Services, who were prone to denying entry to those who had visited the USSR or Cuba, basically miss him there? How did he skate in Mexico so easily? The issues with the Winston Scott "manuscript" being taken and his and other government people, both US and Mexican, saying that Oswald was known to them and was under surveillance in CDMX has always been an oddity. But the CIA basically denies it. As you say, if there was nothing to hide why was the CIA so adamant about sealing off Winston Scott's version of events and not to mention the irony or convenience of his death shortly after retirement when he was in his mid 60's. And it was none other than Angleton that got to his home and widow before the body was even cold.

I do not think that the Russians nor the Cubans had anything to do with JFK being killed, don't get me wrong. But I do think it is an incredible coincidence that a bumbler like Oswald was able to get down to CDMX, visit the USSR and Cuban embassy, meet a few other known subversives, and basically fly under both Mexican and CIA security that was harsh as hell and then get back to the US and kill the president. Could it have happened? Absolutely, do I find it questionable? Absolutely as well.

As I said, a lot of questions for my taste.

Oh, and in regard to Walker, he was not well thought of by the administration, for reference a quote:
Quote:

In private, the president was scathing. A secret White House recording system captured Kennedy's assessment of Dallas' new resident: "General Walker. Imagine that son of a ***** having been commander of a division up till last year. And the Army promoting him?"

RGV AG
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I have always found your posts on this topic, over the years, interesting and informative. Without a doubt you have much more information and knowledge about the assassination than I do. Your confidence in your positions and opinions bears merit due to your knowledge. To clarify, I have never come close to manifesting anything other than basically my self formed amateur opinion, but one to which I am entitled nonetheless.

From my standpoint, and my basic premise is that there are too many questions, too many coincidences, too many oddities, and too many odd characters involved in this situation to give me absolute certainty that there was not some kind of plot or manipulation, maybe not an outright far reaching consipiracy, but an orchestrated effort to have JFK killed. I could very well be wrong.

One thing that has always stood out to me, and I would value your opinion on this episode of the mystery, is Oswald's trip to Mexico City. I have read quite a bit obout this situation and have some personal knowledge, not of anything related ot Oswald, of CIA and MexGov policies and actions during those times. Due to that, I am perplexed at how Oswald flew so under the radar given his background.

My fathers family is from Mexico City, it is where I was raised through 14 years old, and my parents lived there from 1960 through 1983, save for a brief 18 month stint when I was born in Houston. Ironically my parents were married in Mexico City a few weeks after JFK was assassinated.

From the 1950's through forever anyone with any sense, especially the expat community, knew that the USSR embassy was under incredible surveillance by the CIA and the Mexican spy agencies that were run by the CIA. The CIA had 3 Mexican presidents compromised, one of which was the security chief at that time and was later to be president. Following the Cuban revolution the Cuban embassy and its personnel were basically treated the same way by the CIA, and there was a huge CIA presence there as well. (in the early 00's I found out one of my childhood friends dad was way up with the CIA in the 70's).

The Mexican government, by its own volition and also at the behest of the gringo's, has always been extremely worried about leftist movements and communists. The security, spying, monitoring, and just overall covering of the Soviet and Cuban actions and facilities was huge in Mexico City.

For instance, my pediatrician an Anglo/Mexican, dual citizen Brit/Mex, went to cuba in 61' or 62' on a medical mission. When her group returned to Mexico they were are "interned" for a couple of days and just short of outright tortured as to what they did and who they saw in Cuba. In her case, she was cut loose early as it turned out she treated one of the Mexican security guys kids and when he found out she was held, he cut her loose.

Other expats that had contact with Cubans or Russians were immediately questioned and watched, phone lines were tapped issues with the MexGov immediately arose. Everyone knew, even us kids, to avoid the Russians, Cubans, and Eastern Europeans like the plague. White Russians left Mexico because of harassment, so did many Jews. The Mexican security services never trusted them much and did not welcome them.

Thus, what did Oswald go and do in Mexico City? And how does the CIA and Mexican Security Services, who were prone to denying entry to those who had visited the USSR or Cuba, basically miss him there? How did he skate in Mexico so easily? The issues with the Winston Scott "manuscript" being taken and his and other government people, both US and Mexican, saying that Oswald was known to them and was under surveillance in CDMX has always been an oddity. But the CIA basically denies it. As you say, if there was nothing to hide why was the CIA so adamant about sealing off Winston Scott's version of events and not to mention the irony or convenience of his death shortly after retirement when he was in his mid 60's. And it was none other than Angleton that got to his home and widow before the body was even cold.

I do not think that the Russians nor the Cubans had anything to do with JFK being killed, don't get me wrong. But I do think it is an incredible coincidence that a bumbler like Oswald was able to get down to CDMX, visit the USSR and Cuban embassy, meet a few other known subversives, and basically fly under both Mexican and CIA security that was harsh as hell and then get back to the US and kill the president. Could it have happened? Absolutely, do I find it questionable? Absolutely as well.

As I said, a lot of questions for my taste.

Oh, and in regard to Walker, he was not well thought of by the administration, for reference a quote:
Quote:

In private, the president was scathing. A secret White House recording system captured Kennedy's assessment of Dallas' new resident: "General Walker. Imagine that son of a ***** having been commander of a division up till last year. And the Army promoting him?"

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