Where does Oswald's attempted murder of Gen. Edwin Walker play in this whole issue of him being some sort of agent?

BQ78 said:

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Because he was a loser loner that no one liked or could get along with. When he returned to the US from Russia he lived in poverty without a pot to piss in. Hardly the making of a government operative, mafia hit man or any other agent you can conjecture.

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And yet this loser lone nut was good friends of the wealthy CIA asset George DeMorenschildt (Russian) who took him around Dallas to anti-Castro meetings! I guess the meetings didn't take however, because somehow the poor poverty stricken guy goes to New Orleans to start his own chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee and has the extra money to rent an office at 544 Camp Street (which also happens to be used by former FBI agent Guy Bannister)….and wait, the "poor" guy has the money to print 1000 FPCC leaflets to hand out. For a guy that didn't have a pot to piss in he sure has the funds to get around a lot! (Not even mentioning his trip to Mexico City)…..let's be sure to mention Oswald's telephone call from the Dallas Jail the night of Nov 23…he requested a collect call to an unlisted number that belonged to John Hurt of Raleigh NC….Hurt happened to be heavily involved in military intelligence during and after WW II. Why would Oswald attempt to make the call….and how does a lone nut have an unlisted number like that memorized….I'd say there's way more to Oswald than a just a lone nut without a pot to piss in.

Ah George DeMorenschildt, certainly one of the most colorful characters in the JFK Assassination story and probably the only person in the world that Oswald (a high school dropout) thought was his intellectual equal.

You state that he took Oswald to anti-Castro meetings like that is an established fact. Where might I read about that because this is the first I've ever heard about it? My understanding is Oswald met and associated with him through the Russian expatriate community.

I will say if I bought into a conspiracy theory it would be based on the Cuba connection. I think the Warren Commission probably did not explore that one as deeply as they should have. It is obvious Oswald played both sides of that fence, but he was definitely on the Castro side and seems to have tried to infiltrate the other side to gather intelligence for his hero Fidel.

DeMorenschildt as a "CIA asset" could be like arguing with the folks earlier in this thread about what constitutes a press conference. If being debriefed by the CIA and State Department after one of his numerous international trips and knowing people who had been in the OAS during World War II makes you a "CIA asset." Well, he was one.

As for "establishing" a chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans, it had exactly two members (well actually one) -- himself and his alias Alex Hidel (the name he used to buy the gun he killed Kennedy with). As for his use of the address at 544 Camp Street. He did not rent the office but merely phished the address for his leaflets. None of the three businesses at that location knew Oswald and the landlord said he never rented to Oswald or the Committee. You are also repeating a regular lie of the conspiracy theorists saying Guy Bannister's Office was at that address, he was in another building with its own entrance around the corner nearby at 531 Lafayette. Please tell me you don't swallow all of Jim Garrison's made-up trash.

As for the trip to Mexico City a big-time assassin and government operative wouldn't have blown his cover by taking a flight to Mexico City versus dragging across Texas and northern Mexico in a bus?

John Hurt, that is a more obscure reference for conspiracy theorists, so it shows me you have read up on the subject. But you still are mis-leading the real facts. Someone told the Dallas County switchboard operator that they were making a call from the jail on behalf of Oswald, not Oswald himself. She was asked to call two numbers in Raliegh without success. Later she thought one of the names the person mentioned was John Hurt. The WC investigated this story and determined that Oswald did not make any such call. Not knowing anything about Hurt, even if true as you related, what do you think it means?

The WC apparently never even investigated Oswald's Raleigh phone call as it is never mentioned in any volume of the WC report. (It wasn't until a few years later that it even came out….it was certainly investigated by the HSCA though!!). By the way, do you actually believe the CIA and FBI were 100% forthcoming to the WC??

Was it the HCSA that looked into it, I couldn't remember which group looked at it but I knew one of them called it a nothing burger.

No, they were not and some when asked later said dumb things like "Well , they didn't ask me about an attempt to kill Castro. So, I didn't mention it." Well numbnuts, don't you think that might have been important information to give the commission?

If you believe he was a Castroite/KGB he was doing it for Fidel/Russia.

If you believe he was a government agent or LBJ's boy he was doing it to remove a fringe right lunatic pain in the butt.

If you believe he was mafia, free Cuba, right wing, military industrial complex or frankly any of the theories for that matter you just claim there is no proof he took a shot at Walker, even though he told Marina he did.

The thing that nags at me and I do not understand and pardon me for being a simpleton in this respect - if the governments story is the correct story based on research they gathered, then why is all the paperwork and investigative material out of reach to public researchers until a year far far away? And even then won't entirely be released?

The autopsy photos will never be publicly released for the privacy concerns of the Kennedys. Foreign HUMINT Resources, although they may be dead, their children may not, so for their sake the fact that they worked with the US is going to stay classified. The fact that we have tapes and transcripts of what was said in the Cuban and Russian embassies in Mexico City in the 60s and beyond for some reason are probably still classified. It's easier to keep information classified than releasing and making a mistake. The truth is the government probably keeps things classified that should not be. It's not nefarious, it's just inertia and laziness.

And not all of the Kennedy material is kept away from researchers. Most is available. Every time there has been a new tranche of material, there has been no major revelations and prior classified only confirms prior data.

But think about it, after 60 years and successfully hiding the "conspiracy" if there really were one and the records have [had] a smoking gun do you really think the conspirators left it there to be found someday?

BQ78 said:

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Ah George DeMorenschildt, certainly one of the most colorful characters in the JFK Assassination story and probably the only person in the world that Oswald (a high school dropout) thought was his intellectual equal.

You state that he took Oswald to anti-Castro meetings like that is an established fact. Where might I read about that because this is the first I've ever heard about it? My understanding is Oswald met and associated with him through the Russian expatriate community.

I will say if I bought into a conspiracy theory it would be based on the Cuba connection. I think the Warren Commission probably did not explore that one as deeply as they should have. It is obvious Oswald played both sides of that fence, but he was definitely on the Castro side and seems to have tried to infiltrate the other side to gather intelligence for his hero Fidel.

DeMorenschildt as a "CIA asset" could be like arguing with the folks earlier in this thread about what constitutes a press conference. If being debriefed by the CIA and State Department after one of his numerous international trips and knowing people who had been in the OAS during World War II makes you a "CIA asset." Well, he was one.

As for "establishing" a chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans, it had exactly two members (well actually one) -- himself and his alias Alex Hidel (the name he used to buy the gun he killed Kennedy with). As for his use of the address at 544 Camp Street. He did not rent the office but merely phished the address for his leaflets. None of the three businesses at that location knew Oswald and the landlord said he never rented to Oswald or the Committee. You are also repeating a regular lie of the conspiracy theorists saying Guy Bannister's Office was at that address, he was in another building with its own entrance around the corner nearby at 531 Lafayette. Please tell me you don't swallow all of Jim Garrison's made-up trash.

As for the trip to Mexico City a big-time assassin and government operative wouldn't have blown his cover by taking a flight to Mexico City versus dragging across Texas and northern Mexico in a bus?

John Hurt, that is a more obscure reference for conspiracy theorists, so it shows me you have read up on the subject. But you still are mis-leading the real facts. Someone told the Dallas County switchboard operator that they were making a call from the jail on behalf of Oswald, not Oswald himself. She was asked to call two numbers in Raliegh without success. Later she thought one of the names the person mentioned was John Hurt. The WC investigated this story and determined that Oswald did not make any such call. Not knowing anything about Hurt, even if true as you related, what do you think it means?

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Ok let me preface by saying I have read over 25 books about the assassination, from both sides of the aisle including Posner's Case Closed. Countless articles as well. I have always (and even said on this forum multiple times), that I believe Oswald was heavily involved in the assassination, and possibly/probably fired shots. Was he acting alone, and if he wasn't, for whom remains the ultimate question.
1.) George D. taking Oswald to anti-Cuban meetings is in both Ultimate Sacrifice by Lamar Waldron and the Spartacus Educational website about the assassination. George D. being a CIA asset comes from congressional investigator Gaeton Fonzi and is also found in Ultimate Sacrifice. (Did you know another photo of Oswald with the rifle in the backyard signed by Oswald was found in George D's possessions after his "suicide"?).
2.). 544 Camp Street and 531 LaFayette are the same place…two different doors to the same building. Bannister's office is there, and it's quite strange that Oswald would stamp that on his FPFC pamphlets when Bannister is THE most Anti-Cuban person around. Bannisters mistress Delphine Roberts and her daughter have both said (1980) that Oswald was doing jobs for Bannister that summer. Plus, 544 Camp Street was also being used by anti-Castro activist Carlos Bringuier (that's from documents in the National Archives by the way)…who was a member of DRE (anti-Castro group being funded by the CIA….fact.) Yes, that Bringuier that Oswald got into an argument with on the street that some felt was staged, and went on a local tv show with. Somehow, that all doesn't add up….and no, I'm not on the Oliver Stone JFK conspiracy group about the way over the top Garrison beliefs. But, like HSCA member Robert Blakey said, there are some New Orleans connections that cannot be denied. Oswald's uncle Dutch was a known figure of mob boss Carlos Marcello's crime family….and remember there was supposedly no connection between staunch anti-Castro David Ferrie (and a known Bannister associate) and Oswald, yet we know they knew each other well in the Civil Air Patrol, (picture proof) and it's a fact (archived) that Ferrie was a pilot for Marcello….Garrison would have done better investigating those connections….it warrants further investigation. Lots of things apparently going on on Oswald's summer in New Orleans.

3.). The HSCA never considered the Oswald Phone call a nothing burger….in fact, the investigation into it wasn't completely finalized when the HSCA came to an end. As a matter of fact, lead investigator Robert Blakey says "the call was definitely real, and it went out! The direction in which it went was deeply disturbing." I will attach a link to a well document research paper (video as well) by Dr. Grover Proctor….includes some of the info in the HSCA investigators notes that never made it into the final report.

Oswald….for a lone nut we have quite a lot of interesting connections. A marine with a security clearance in Japan denounces the US and defects to Russia and becomes a Marxist, returns to the US during the height of the Cold War where he is never debriefed by the CIA, yet given money and even gets a job at a factory in Dallas that makes lettering on maps used by the U2 Spy Plane? George D.'s friendship, followed by all the New Orleans hoopla, the shooting at Gen Walker where two cars were seen speeding away….and the phone call…that's a lot to unravel.
(And yes it's widely known that the CIA and FBI stonewalled not only the WC, but the HSCA as well…when the HSCA asked for Oswald's military intelligence records…guess what..they'd somehow been accidentally destroyed.)
Ask the question: "IF" it's just a lone nut firing from the TSBD and all the evidence points to just him, what is the purpose of sealing all the documents, some which haven't been released even today?

http://groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk80.html

BQ78 said:

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The autopsy photos will never be publicly released for the privacy concerns of the Kennedys. Foreign HUMINT Resources, although they may be dead, their children may not, so for their sake the fact that they worked with the US is going to stay classified. The fact that we have tapes and transcripts of what was said in the Cuban and Russian embassies in Mexico City in the 60s and beyond for some reason are probably still classified. It's easier to keep information classified than releasing and making a mistake. The truth is the government probably keeps things classified that should not be. It's not nefarious, it's just inertia and laziness.

And not all of the Kennedy material is kept away from researchers. Most is available. Every time there has been a new tranche of material, there has been no major revelations and prior classified only confirms prior data.

But think about it, after 60 years and successfully hiding the "conspiracy" if there really were one and the records have [had] a smoking gun do you really think the conspirators left it there to be found someday?

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Thank you for the answer as it does make sense along those lines of national security and privacy in this issue. I see your reasoning as to why there wouldn't be a hidden smoking gun as well that would eventually be found in the govt files. Thank you.

Big Hunter:

Your post points out the frustration of addressing conspiracy theorists. You know that I think the WC got the main facts straight. Conspiracy theorists are like Oliver Stone in JFK, all over the place. They even step on each other's toes in throwing out what they perceive are devils in the details, while ignoring the huge elephants in the room like the Dallas police finding Oswald's fingerprints on the rifle and the boxes in the sniper's nest, long before any US Government agency took custody of the rifle. They also ignore that Oswald was the only person to leave the TSBD after shots came from that building from the rifle he owned. I could go on with hard evidence that points to Oswald as the lone assassin but to what point? So, I end up defending details like magic bullets and phone calls to Raleigh. Meanwhile conspiracy theorists hint at complex relationships and cover ups, ignoring the details that shoot those down in flames.

I perceive you suspect that the CIA, FBI, mafia and Cubans either participated in or covered up in some way their guilt in killing JFK. Do you really believe those organizations collaborated to kill the president, covered it up and have kept it secret for 60 years? Do you think the WC was at best dupes or worse part of the conspiracy? The ability to do that, with so many moving parts, is unbelievable for me. I mean to shut up witnesses and not get a death bed confession, would require you to threaten their remaining families and to do that, the 1960s CIA guy had to tell the 1980s CIA guy all about it to kill the witness's family if they talked. Frankly, it is just absurd.

I was aware of George D. having one of the Beckley Street photographs. Of course, here is where conspiracy theorists step on each other's toes. Is the photograph a clever early photo shop to frame Oswald or is it authentic? Of course, it is the latter because Marina said she took it. Oswald even signed the George D. copy (confirmed by handwriting experts) and someone (probably George) wrote cleverly on it words like "the killer of fascists with his arsenal."

I do not know why you put George's suicide in quotes. He clearly had mental problems at the end and had already attempted suicide before. He was hallucinating things about his wife and that another man was in his house. He had just got out of the nut house when he committed suicide.

I agree that the New Orleans/Cuba activities bore a closer look but I do believe the HSCA looked at it harder than the WC and did not produce anything that changed the results of the WC. Oswald attended only three meetings of the CAP before he dropped out and had no more contact with David Ferrie. There is also a picture of a very aggravated looking John Wayne with Lee Harvey Oswald in it. Does that mean the Duke participated in the conspiracy? Pictures are not proof of anything other than people being together at one time and usually just depict appearances at a point in time. If I were to accept all the "facts" your throw out about Ferrie (pilot for the mafia, intimate friend of LHO, etc.) what are you trying to say, that that is proof they killed Kennedy?

The FBI was trying to track Oswald but he was moving so often between and within Dallas and New Orleans that they were usually a step behind him. This led to the embarrassing note he left for Hosty in Dallas. So, he did not just defect and come back and live a regular life.

The Raleigh phone call website was interesting but calling a guy from army intelligence 20 years previous seems odd. But we should add Army intelligence (Military Industrial Complex) to the list of moving parts that are complicit in the murder and/or coverup. The article puts more weight on the testimony of an observer, Treon, than the actual person who handled the call, Swinney, who said the call sheet was a forgery and it was not her signature on it. I am still not sure what to think of it. I lean toward a nothing burger, rather than the bread crumb leaving to the vast multiorganization conspiracy you are alluding to.

My post just before this one addresses why I think a small amount of the records are still sealed.

Perhaps you skipped over my comment pertaining to my belief that Oswald was definitely involved! The gun was his (and no I don't believe the backyard photos were faked…never have). He's the ONLY employee to flee the building….shots were definitely fired from there…I've always said he's involved. My only question is was he acting completely alone? He's certainly a strange character…..but "I" believe there's more to his story! The guy can't keep a job to save his life. Minimum wage jobs at that….he has No Money…yet he can rent an apartment in New Orleans and pay for 1,000 printed FPCC leaflets. He can take a bus trip to Mexico City and afford a hotel room and meals while there…where's all the funds for the "doesn't have a pot to piss in" guy coming from??

IF he's just a lone nut, there's no need for the CIA and FBI to keep anything from the WC, as well as HSCA and still not all records were turned over to the ARRB years later…if all evidence points to just him alone, that should be easy! What are they hiding? National Security reasons? Lack of surveillance on him after he returned? What's the reason to keep some files still sealed? (Yes you mentioned your thoughts)
Let me ask you a question….do you believe that the FBI has found nothing on Hunter Biden's laptop? Do you believe that Joe had no knowledge or received no money from Hunter's business dealings? Could it be that certain organizations are covering up for them? Could it even be true that men involved in hiding those things know the truth and won't talk? Could it be that someone else was involved in killing JFK and never talked….seems very plausible. (And yet many have talked….it's just that lone nutters go out of their way to try to discredit them with "they were old, they were mentally unstable, etc.). Who's flashing Secret Service ID on the grassy knoll right after the assassination….confirmed by members of the Dallas PD and others…it wasn't Oswald nor the SS.

The WC is a sham at best….IF evidence was withheld from them, then of course they were left with no other leads to follow. 2 members of the WC Richard Russell and Hale Boggs didn't want to sign off on it and doubted its findings. Ford was basically informing the FBI on everything….and he later admitted to moving the location of JFK's back wound several inches to read "entered the back of the neck"….which it didn't, but that makes the SBT easier to sell. (A poster on here earlier brought up the new documentary Parkland….What the doctor's saw. I highly recommend watching it…they (6 of them) completely discredit the official autopsy findings and the X-rays that they aren't consistent with what they saw. My favorite part is when they laugh in unison when a member of the HSCA says they were too busy trying to save the President's life to notice the wounds. I find it extremely interesting that a back wound is located and pictured in JFK's back that the Bethesda team could only probe a few inches deep.).

David Ferrie's mafia association with Marcello are well documented…..it's in the National Archives. He was in the courtroom daily with Marcello at his trial. It even says he was a known associate of Guy Bannister and "now hear this" had links to Jack Ruby. (It's somewhat interesting to me that the National Archives says that Ferrie called Jean West on Sept. 1963 and Ruby met with Jean West on Nov. 21, 1963…..I'm not saying this ties a bow around anything…just interesting to me).

The phone call: Mrs Swinney never said the phone slip was a forgery….she only said that she never signed it…which is explained earlier in the article.

Oswald was no doubt involved in the assassination…..but there is evidence that leads to his possible connections with others that "might" have been involved. Like you said earlier….no release of any information in the JFK files will spell it all out to us. Anything like that IF it existed, has long since been removed. I'm just a guy that doesn't take everything at face value….I like to do my own research and come to my own conclusions. The JFK conspiracy library is full of books that are just lies….because they still sell and make money. The CIA had authors and men on its payroll to discredit ANY conspiracy angle….why??? We will never know the full truth to the story…..even the WC couldn't come up with a motive for Oswald acting alone. No…I am not trying to come off as condescending to you in any way….and you have strong arguments for the lone nut….you obviously know your stuff!

But the Joe Biden stuff is not hidden, it is in plain sight. The media and Democrats just tell us not to believe our eyes.

The Conspiracy stuff on the other hand...

My question...afterwards, who/how many benefited? What policies changed AND which remained unchanged? Who, including Federal agencies seemingly rose in stature/power? I suspect there is either (or both) a money or power trail.

whatthehey78 said:

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My question...afterwards, who/how many benefited? What policies changed AND which remained unchanged? Who, including Federal agencies seemingly rose in stature/power? I suspect there is either (or both) a money or power trail.

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Days after the assassination LBJ reverses JFK's policy of no additional troops in Vietnam. CI A was fully funded after JFK had reduced their funding.

You can place the blame of 58,000 dead troops on that one decision made by LBJ.

The CIA, formed within months of the vehicle crash in New Mexico in July of 1947, has morphed into one of the major forces threatening our national security. Yes, they very well could have been involved in JFK's murder.

I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread. The entire thing has been fascinating back and forth so it's been an enjoyable read. In the attempt to learn more about specific subjects throughout our history, I decided to read more into the assassination in the hopes of educating myself.

One of the resources I stumbled upon was a podcast titled "Who Killed JFK?" by Rob Reiner and Soledad O'Brien. I went into the podcast with an open mind. First, I will say it is very one sided. Reiner pushes his story telling narrative of how LHO was just a "patsy" and it all flows from there. It's a very conspiracy heavy narrative that he pushes, and I didn't feel they did a very good job of presenting counter arguments.

It's generally the same consistent theories that I've read elsewhere: multiple shooters, single bullet theory wasn't possible, Warren commission was a sham, LHO didn't act alone (wasn't even one of the shooters he said), and it basically ends with it was either one (or a mix of the following): CIA/FBI; Mafia; Cuban exiles

It definitely piqued my interest more to look into his so called "sources", but I was curious if anyone here has heard the podcast and what their thoughts were.

Also, if anyone has any suggestions regarding books to learn more on the subject, I'd appreciate them

Not books, but Farsight Institute collected data associated with the murder using a technique developed by Stanford Research Institute and our CIA. Used mainly for military espionage purposes at first.

Here's a website that was started by a prof at Marquette that does a very thorough job of exploring every single aspect of the assassination. If you pick a topic and start clicking on the provided links, it will drill down to original document, videos, and the like:

JFK / McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page (jfk-assassination.net)

whatthehey78 said:

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Two brothers, both with Presidential aspirations were assassinated under VERY suspicious circumstances by persons with LITTLE, IF ANY reasonable motive. Both brothers had enemies in high govt. positions. Both assassins supposedly having LITTLE, IF ANY inside connections, somehow knew when AND where to be on the fateful day. Botched autopsy, records missing, destroyed or withheld for (??) reasons. And I'm to believe it was all just coincidence.

Yeah...pure conspiracy! lol

ETA - I left out, WC investigators with personal grudges who simply ignored/forgot to interview key persons.

Govt. sham? Odds are > 50:50

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Kennedy parade route was known weeks in advance. It wasn't some hidden last minute announcement.

Not true, it was added about a week before the trip, scrapping the original plan of just driving direct from LUV to the Trade Mart.