Butch & Sundance, on the run in South America

3,031 Views | 19 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by expresswrittenconsent
BrazosBendHorn
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An interesting article at The Daily Beast about the final years of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, living in Chile and Argentina for many years before meeting their end in Bolivia ...

https://www.thedailybeast.com/butch-cassidy-and-the-sundance-kids-last-tango
huisachel
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thanks for the post------I was shocked, shocked I say-----to learn they were not 1970s type cool guys but just a couple of sleazy crooks with firearms skills and horses
CanyonAg77
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AG
I've always wondered what the tipping point is between common thugs and folk heroes. Butch and Sundance, Jesse James, Bonnie and Clyde...all somehow are admired while other criminals are detested.

Will Benie Madeoff be a folk hero in 2119?
BrazosBendHorn
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huisachel said:

thanks for the post------I was shocked, shocked I say-----to learn they were not 1970s type cool guys but just a couple of sleazy crooks with firearms skills and horses
An excellent observation, and one that's addressed (however briefly) in Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid ...

Sheriff Bledsoe: You know, you should have let yourself get killed a long time ago when you had the chance. See, you may be the biggest thing that ever hit this area, but you're still two-bit outlaws. I never met a soul more affable than you, Butch, or faster than the Kid, but you're still nothing but two-bit outlaws on the dodge. It's over, don't you get that? Your time is over and you're gonna die bloody, and all you can do is choose where.
BrazosBendHorn
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CanyonAg77 said:

I've always wondered what the tipping point is between common thugs and folk heroes. Butch and Sundance, Jesse James, Bonnie and Clyde...all somehow are admired while other criminals are detested.

Will Benie Madeoff be a folk hero in 2119?
MAD magazine lampooned the notion of the outlaw duo as popular heroes in its 1967 satire Balmy & Clod ...
Liquid Wrench
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I always wonder to what extent they were actually folk "heroes" in their in own lifetimes as viewed by contemporaries. I tend to think that the screenwriters and songwriters of the 60's and 70's built up that folk hero mystique more in our minds than in the minds of our predecessors. I haven't seen a lot of evidence that outlaws were really heroes to ordinary working people.

When I look through old newspaper archives, late 19th and early 20th century newspaper writers were doing a lot to secure the mythology and lore of the not-so-Old West. But from what I've seen (in admittedly limited research), the hero-worship was almost entirely reserved for law enforcement figures, like the Earps in national stories or the Texas Rangers in Texas newspapers.
BrazosBendHorn
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I think you're on the nose, SMI. I'm very sure that my parents and their generation (who came of age during the Great Depression) and also their parents' generation for the most part didn't see Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, Ma Barker, et al, as anything other than the dangerous hoodlums that they were. I'm also very sure that their sympathy was with law enforcement, particularly the nascent FBI.

I had read in the past year that on a per-capita basis, the casualty rate for LEO in the 1930s was the highest it's ever been largely because local LEO generally didn't have the resources to deal with the criminal gangs, and also because on many occasions they were outgunned.

I also recall that when Bonnie & Clyde came out in 1967 Warren Beatty caught a lot of flak for glamorizing the couple.

All that being said, I think a lot of people (such as myself, safely removed by several decades from the crimes) take an interest in the criminal exploits of the hoodlums (although not necessarily putting them on a pedestal).
BQ78
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AG
Bonnie and Clyde were folk heroes to an extent in their time because people hated banks and bankers.

Jesse James was definitely a folk hero in his time as he continued the fight of the Civil War and people detested the railroads gouging of the farmers.
expresswrittenconsent
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Is the idea that the "anti hero" mythology didnt exist until 1960s/70s filmmakers started making the bad cowboy or mobster seem as cool (or cooler) than the good guy?

I honestly dont know much about the pulp comics and novellas of the post civil war 1800s or pre depression era 1900s to know if bad guys were celebrated.
Rabid Cougar
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AG
Most were hated and despised outside their "area" in the towns where they killed local police officers, sheriffs and innocent by-standers.

Bonnie and Clyde killed a man, Doyle Johnson, in Temple, Texas on Christmas Day in 1932. They were stealing his roadster from in front of his house. He came running out of the house and they shot him dead right in front of his family.
Liquid Wrench
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expresswrittenconsent said:

Is the idea that the "anti hero" mythology didnt exist until 1960s/70s filmmakers started making the bad cowboy or mobster seem as cool (or cooler) than the good guy?
I think the Anti-Hero got mainstreamed with noir movies/books in the 30's and 40's. But they were still kind of "rough guys who got stuff done."

There was a popular 1939 Jesse James movie that starts with evil railroad men conning people out of their land, which starts them on their criminal career. Easy to understand why that might resonate with a Great Depression era audience.

It just seems like the Robin Hood/fun-loving but misunderstood outlaw p.o.v. became more popular in the 60's and 70's.
gigemhilo
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AG
I think part of the "hero worship" of outlaws comes from what the news covered at the time. They were essentially the celebrities of their generation. This was before TV, movies, etc... so the only thing they had at the time to "follow" was newspaper reporting.

Gangsters were the only thing being reported "by name" other than sports and politics. So because of that, famous outlaws like Bonnie and Clyde were famous because of the newspaper reporting of them. It is very similar to people being famous for being famous today (Kardashians, Hiltons, etc) - we dont really like them, but we love to follow them and the media loves us to follow them.

The accounts I have seen of the death of outlaws always cite people coming to see their body. Back to Bonnie and Clyde, when news of their death got out, local people rushed to see their body on display and get a souvenir. They gawked at the car they were in as it was towed to town. Thousands attended their funeral. Not because they "admired them", but because they were famous.



BrazosBendHorn
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gigemhilo said:

I think part of the "hero worship" of outlaws comes from what the news covered at the time. They were essentially the celebrities of their generation. This was before TV, movies, etc... so the only thing they had at the time to "follow" was newspaper reporting.

Gangsters were the only thing being reported "by name" other than sports and politics. So because of that, famous outlaws like Bonnie and Clyde were famous because of the newspaper reporting of them. It is very similar to people being famous for being famous today (Kardashians, Hiltons, etc) - we dont really like them, but we love to follow them and the media loves us to follow them.

The accounts I have seen of the death of outlaws always cite people coming to see their body. Back to Bonnie and Clyde, when news of their death got out, local people rushed to see their body on display and get a souvenir. They gawked at the car they were in as it was towed to town. Thousands attended their funeral. Not because they "admired them", but because they were famous.
Or perhaps (also) because they were infamous ... same thing happened when the Red Baron was shot down. The British and Aussies gave him a burial with full honors ... and his Fokker triplane (which was mostly intact) was literally picked to pieces by souvenir hunters ...
who?mikejones
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AG
These are my people, Americans.
Apache
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AG
Quote:

Is the idea that the "anti hero" mythology didnt exist until 1960s/70s filmmakers started making the bad cowboy or mobster seem as cool (or cooler) than the good guy?


James Cagney & Edward G. Robinson were certainly anti-heros in some of those old gangster movies.
In the mid 30's the "Hays Code" was implimented. It mandated that Hollywood portray religion, law enforcement, etc in a positive light & that the "bad guys" always received justice in the end. There was a lot more sexuality pre Hays code in movies as well... some of those women like Mae West were pretty loose with the onscreen dialogue & action.


expresswrittenconsent
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Yeah funny how the hays code ends and the best era in filmmaking begins.
aggie appraiser
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expresswrittenconsent said:

Yeah funny how the hays code ends and the best era in filmmaking begins.

The best era in film making was during the Hays Code period. Lots of crap started coming out in the 60's.
expresswrittenconsent
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Gosh, mister, gee williker. OK. I, I,I, I'll take the best films of the 70s you can enjoy your 1930-1960 films where all the dialogue sounds like bad Jimmy Stewart impersonations. That's the ticket, yeah!
aggie appraiser
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expresswrittenconsent said:

Gosh, mister, gee williker. OK. I, I,I, I'll take the best films of the 70s you can enjoy your 1930-1960 films where all the dialogue sounds like bad Jimmy Stewart impersonations. That's the ticket, yeah!

You should check out some old movies. They are great.
expresswrittenconsent
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I've seen lots of the AFI top 100 and IMO, the films before and after the hays code are significantly more entertaining, more relatable, and more rewatchable than the ones from during.
I would also consider the best films from the ~3 decade window of 1968-1999 to be significantly better than any grouping of best films from the 3 decades prior to 1968, and think most film critics and film fans would agree. Obviously, YMMV, and it sounds like you disagree. That's ok.
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