McNamara's Morons

4,049 Views | 31 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Sapper Redux
Madman
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Any Vietnam vets have anything to say about this?


Quote:

A presentation and reading by Hamilton Gregory, author of "McNamara's Folly: The Use of Low-IQ Troops in the Vietnam." Because so many college students were avoiding military service during the Vietnam War, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara lowered mental standards to induct 354,000 low-IQ men. Their death toll in combat was appalling.



wildcat08
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Not a vet, but there was a guy in my small high school who was killed in action. He definitely fell in this category and I could never understand how he got in. He was just a big gentle kid that couldn't process well at all, and I always thought it was crazy he ended up in combat. I guess this explains it.
JABQ04
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No a Vietnam vet, but modern GWOT vet, when the military needs troops it will do what it has too. During the height of GWOT, waivers were given out like candy for any and everybody who wanted to join.
IDAGG
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OP thanks for posting that. Interesting video.

I was in the army in the mid 70s, after Vietnam. The volunteer Army was relatively new and they had a problem filling the ranks. I can attest to the fact they must have been giving out waivers then. Some of the folks I served with were capable of tying their boot laces, but that was about it.
IDAGG
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And BTW, McNamara is an excellent example of just because someone is super smart, it does not necessarily mean they have good judgment or character, both of which McNamara was lacking.

I think it was on this forum that someone had quoted a book on McNamara that stated that he was in large part responsible for the disastrous strategy of escalation in the Vietnam War because he thought it worked so well in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

DUMBASS.
Madman
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I was reading a book not about McNamara but JFK and it had plenty of examples of him doing dumb things and then just doubling down on them.
huisachel
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McMasters wrote a very good book about the idiocy of our leadership called Dereliction of Duty.

As for the low IQ soldiers, a friend of mine, a retired colonel of 88 years of age told me about this years ago and said it was a disaster all around
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

McNamara's Morons

I thought you were referring to McNamara and his staff.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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While he told LBJ all was hunky dory , he secretly thought the war was not winnable !

Believe he admitted as such in his book after he was out of government . Thought at the time this was treasonous or some such !
huisachel
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He was part of the Best and Brightest bunch that Kennedy brought in----so much Harvard and Yale, you know.

LBJ bragged to Sam Rayburn about how brilliant they all were and Rayburn told him he wished just one of them had ever run for sheriff somewhere.

We are still paying for their arrogance.
Caesar4
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Madman said:

I was reading a book not about McNamara but JFK and it had plenty of examples of him doing dumb things and then just doubling down on them.
Book title, please, when you get a chance.
MAROON
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Smokedraw01
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Caesar4 said:

Madman said:

I was reading a book not about McNamara but JFK and it had plenty of examples of him doing dumb things and then just doubling down on them.
Book title, please, when you get a chance.
Pentagon Papers, right?
Sapper Redux
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Boy, that is really crazy. The problem we had during the height of the Iraq War were the fat bodies getting shoved through the system. We had privates who had never, ever passed an APFT or a tape test who had been graduated from basic and AIT and sent to units. That's bad enough, but someone who mentally cannot process combat, that's just a disaster for everyone on the ground.
terata
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They were known as "McNamara's 100000" and more than a few Officers said they saved many good men.
wamvoss
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There was one marine who was the only kia from my hometown that was killed less than one month after arriving in Vietnam. He was mentally challenged and grew up in a shack down by the river. He would have been one of these.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Gives you a whole new perspective on Forrest Gump.
BQ78
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Well Winston Groom did have a tour with 4ID in Vietnam.
aalan94
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Not going to dispute the original source, but I'll just say that this is nothing new. The "Greatest Generation" included a lot of really dumb people. Not bad folks, just very ignorant, as one might expect for people who grow up sharecroppers in Alabama or in some tenement house.

Even listening to the Easy Company veterans in Band of Brothers, you can tell they're not exactly endowed with high educational prowess. That being said, they performed extraordinarily well. That's because courage has little to do with intelligence (it may indeed have an inverse relationship more often than a correlation).

I doubt very seriously that we "lost Vietnam" because of the low IQ of our troops. Low IQ will show up on the battlefield in a few instances, and that might be part of the cause of things like the Mai Lai incident. It also becomes a bigger problem the more technologically advanced your military becomes. But there are so many diverse reasons for our failure in Vietnam that this sounds like a huge dodge, especially coming from someone who made key decisions.

It sounds like some of the cases here are extreme ones, like people with Down's Syndrome or something being in combat. I'm sure that's bad, but that's a relatively small piece of the iceberg. Flat out ignorant is much more common, and it STILL is. If anyone tells you that we're better now because we require a high school diploma, they're full of crap because a high school diploma now means nothing. A 9th grader in 1960 is probably smarter than a 12th grade high school graduate today. And ultimately, performance on the battlefield is about courage and doing the tasks assigned, few of which are tasks where a high school degree is relevant.

I'll just say as someone with the most recent on-the-ground battlefield experience (1.5 months ago), that there are quite a few morons in the military and they somehow manage to not die on a regular basis.
Madman
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Caesar4 said:

Madman said:

I was reading a book not about McNamara but JFK and it had plenty of examples of him doing dumb things and then just doubling down on them.
Book title, please, when you get a chance.
I have looked and I can't find it. I think I loaned it along with a small library to a friend. Will get it back eventually.
terata
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They didn't have Down Syndrome, but they were close, in some cases. Everything they did, or learned had to be done by rote. They often could not remember what they should have retained by repetition. Much the same philosophy prevailed throughout the Carter years. It took the Army until 1991 and maybe a bit later to take a collective corporate laxative and eliminate them; most of them.
Trench55
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I am a Vietnam Veteran. As a 2nd LT., I went over with the 2nd Battalion, 4th Artillery (105mm howitzer), 9th Infantry Division in January 1967. The 9th ID was reactivated at Fort Riley, KS, in 1966, getting bus loads of draftees directly from the reception centers, still in civilian clothes. The bulk of the lower enlisted troops were draftees. I later served with the 7th Battalion, 8th Artillery (8 inch howitzer/175mm gun) the last few months of my deployment. Based upon the troops with whom I served, I completely disagree with the idea that those troops were somehow intellectually inferior to the general population. Those men were smart, courageous, dedicated, and served with distinction.
Madman
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Trench55 said:

I am a Vietnam Veteran. As a 2nd LT., I went over with the 2nd Battalion, 4th Artillery (105mm howitzer), 9th Infantry Division in January 1967. The 9th ID was reactivated at Fort Riley, KS, in 1966, getting bus loads of draftees directly from the reception centers, still in civilian clothes. The bulk of the lower enlisted troops were draftees. I later served with the 7th Battalion, 8th Artillery (8 inch howitzer/175mm gun) the last few months of my deployment. Based upon the troops with whom I served, I completely disagree with the idea that those troops were somehow intellectually inferior to the general population. Those men were smart, courageous, dedicated, and served with distinction.


Did you watch the video? He is not claiming everyone was a moron just the ones given irregular clearance to join when in other times they would have been rejected.
CanyonAg77
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Exactly. No one is questioning their honor. The fact is that McNamara drafted troops who were below normal Army standards

As an aside, I doubt that any of the mentally lower testing draftees were in a branch like artillery. L
JABQ04
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There is a reason Artillerymen get made fun of with "pull string go boom". FDC are the nerds of the Arty world. Gun bunnies just need to be able hump shells across the gun line, dig, and operate traversing hand wheels.
CanyonAg77
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Not about to get in a branch vs branch fight. I will say a friend spent time commanding a company of ambulance drivers before the Army sent him to law school.

He claimed that his drivers were the guys too dumb to be infantrymen
JABQ04
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Not starting a fight at all. I was an enlisted Artilleryman. We threw rocks at each other to pass the time and also would occasionally set each other's pants on fire with hand sanitizer. Good times on the gun line.
bufrilla
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I call BS on this "low IQ" crap. I took all my aptitude test at Boot Camp, not before. Smart vs stupid was if you volunteered or was drafted. Every series at Boot Camp (late 1965/early 66) had one platoon of draftees and four platoons of volunteers. The draftees faired just as well as the volunteers.

I was a "mustang officer" that was a platoon and company commander in Vietnam. Politics was the real issue. My last tour in Vietnam (3 total) was flying F4 Phantoms. Low IQ, High IQ bullets did not discriminate.

Semper Fi
Madman
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Did you catch the part where he said these men suffered 3X the rate of death?
bufrilla
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I think I said "BS" to that!
terata
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Whether they're called "morons" or not, and may have been drafted, they did not run from their duty. They had the balls to wear the military uniform and die for the US. they are respected.
Presley OBannons Sword
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CanyonAg77 said:

Not about to get in a branch vs branch fight. I will say a friend spent time commanding a company of ambulance drivers before the Army sent him to law school.

He claimed that his drivers were the guys too dumb to be infantrymen

I was a truck platoon commander in Afghan as a lieutenant. Loved by boys, but God bless em, not the brightest crayons in the box.
Sapper Redux
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Presley OBannons Sword said:

CanyonAg77 said:

Not about to get in a branch vs branch fight. I will say a friend spent time commanding a company of ambulance drivers before the Army sent him to law school.

He claimed that his drivers were the guys too dumb to be infantrymen

I was a truck platoon commander in Afghan as a lieutenant. Loved by boys, but God bless em, not the brightest crayons in the box.


As Marines isn't the danger that they would eat those crayons?
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