Speaking of WWI (and remembrance thereof, or not)

5,428 Views | 68 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by CanyonAg77
BrazosBendHorn
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There's a thought-provoking article over at The Daily Beast about what may/may not be remembered in 100 years ...

LINK

Quote:

The 100-year test is much different than the half-century test. After 50 years, tens of millions of people are still alive. After 100 years, the living witnesses are gone.

So let's examine who and what from around 1918 is and isn't still widely remembered in 2018. Those findings can help us make informed guesses about who and what from 2018 might still be remembered in 2118.

In early 1918, World War I was still raging and writing at the time explicitly suggested that President Woodrow Wilson would join George Washington and Abraham Lincoln in the ranks of America's most legendary presidentsthe three leaders who had commanded during the nation's biggest military conflicts up to that point.

But a 2009 study asking respondents to name as many presidents as they could found that fewer than half of respondents could remember Wilson. Indeed, WWI probably ranks as only the third-most remembered American military conflict of the 20th century, behind WWII and Vietnam. Since last summer, younger Americans might primarily think of WWI as the war that Wonder Woman fought.
That last sentence makes causes me to grin and grimace, simultaneously ...

Quote:

So, the $64,000 question is who and what from now will still be remembered in a century. The answer is probably much less than we think. That's thanks to a potent psychological bias known as the availability heuristic, in which people have a tendency to rely on examples that come quickly and easily to mind when evaluating a topic. To prove my point, the phrase "the $64,000 question" is a reference to the most viewed television show of 1956, which is largely forgotten today.
Honestly, I had no clue where that phrase came from ...

Quote:

Let's go look at a few of the top contenders.

September 11 is the obvious top contender. But 2016 was the first election featuring voters with no memory of that daywhich will only be increasingly common in 2020 and beyond. As some commentators were already writing a few years ago, "the 9/11 era is over."

In no way do I mean to minimize the tragedy of September 11. The tragic 1915 sinking of the Lusitania by Germany caused 1,198 deaths and helped galvanize the American public into World War I, just as 9/11 led to our military interventions in Afghanistan and (much more controversially) Iraq. But the Lusitania is not widely remembered today by the general public. Perhaps it would have fared better if James Cameron had made a movie about star-crossed lovers on that ship instead.
OK, that's pretty sobering ... my daughter, just now finishing her second year at The University, was barely 3 when 9/11 happened and really doesn't have much recollection about it ...

Quote:

After a century, will September 11 or Kennedy's assassination be better remembered than those of Presidents James Garfield and William McKinley are today? Everyone alive in 1881 and 1901 remembered where they were when they heard the news, too.
The JFK assassination was the first big news event that I remember (I had just turned 5), and was obviously a huge deal in my universe ... but it's ancient history to my daughter ...


spud1910
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AG
Very interesting. My parents were born in the early 1940s. On the 25th anniversary of Kennedy's assasination, I remember talking to them about what a huge impact he had on their generation. My daughter is 22. I need to ask her what she knows about him.
BrazosBendHorn
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BTW, I strongly suspect that by 1968 the Red Baron would have totally faded from popular memory (known only to aviation geeks like my dad and me) if not for a cartoon beagle and an insanely popular novelty song ...
ABATTBQ87
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WWII history received a big boost when "Saving Private Ryan", "Band of Brothers" and "The Pacific" were released.
Apache
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Very interesting topic. The mob is certainly fickle, and what is remembered and what should be remembered are two vastly different things. Sadly, American culture is increasingly more & more about the "Right Now".
I've been out of school long enough to not have a clue how history is taught these days. It will be interesting to see how things have changed now that my kids are entering Jr. High.

What I think that will be remembered by Americans 100 years from now of the period from 1968-2018 will be mostly generalizations.

Vietnam War - May be known by most, such as the Spanish American War.

Mideast Conflicts - Details will be lost, but since we've been at war in some form or another in the ME for 25 years this will be known.

Rise of Computing Technology - Gates, Dell, Bezos, etc. may be recalled such as Morgan, Rockefeller or Hearst. I think the history that remains is that this is the period when computing power really kickstarted and went into every part of our lives.

Manned Space Flight Begins (Neil Armstrong at least will be recalled)

End of Cold War & Fall of Communism (Specifics will be forgotten for sure. How many adults under 50 know about the Berlin Air Lift? The term "Iron Curtain" I'd wager is unknown to 90% of those under 20.

The Rise of China - Their impact on the world will only continue to increase.

Beginning of the dismantling of Europe through immigration - I believe the last five years of massive immigration into Europe will have long lasting negative consequences & could ultimately lead to civil war in some countries.

Some random thoughts:
Obama gets remembered. Trump will be largely forgotten.
Football in its current form dies off in 20-25 more years. (After Jimbo wins 5 MNCs in a row)
The next "Big Event" in human history will be:
A. When man sets foot on Mars or when we discover life on other planets
or
B. Another nuke gets used in war or a terrorist act.





Cinco Ranch Aggie
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Quote:

younger Americans might primarily think of WWI as the war that Wonder Woman fought.
Sadly, I laughed at this.

For my part, I am following my parents' example by teaching history to my own kids as my parents did with me. I don't profess to know about all eras, but I do have quite an interest in the period between 1918 and 1945, with a particular focus on WWII. To this end, I had many conversations with my now grown son regarding various events in the Second World War. Just about 3 years ago, when I finally met his then fiance, I asked them why they had chosen the date for their wedding, April 18. My son knew where I was going with that right away; my now daughter-in-law answered that it was the first available date at the venue they had chosen. To which I said it was a big day in American history - the Doolittle Raid happened on that date, as did the shoot-down of Admiral Yamamoto a year later.

I know from a recent bicycle ride with my 12-year-old daughter that she has been listening to some of my talks with her. My interest in WWII started, according to my mom, when she was pregnant with me (how she knew that I cannot say, but that's what she always told me) and she read books to me about WWII aviation. Consequently I have had a life-long fascination with all things warbird. I've described aerial combat to my daughter in events like the Battle of Britain, Midway and the Marianas Great Turkey Shoot, and told her that a good fighter pilot will always be aware of his "six" position, that is, what might be directly behind him. On the bike ride, my daughter ended up behind me on a sidewalk and told me that she was "on my six".

But I'm just one dad. I believe it is up to people to pass down the history that we know, whatever history that may be. Easier said than done, certainly, as there is a lot going against this - apathy for one, or even sinister stuff like "cleansed" history.

I hope that big historic events will still be remembered in 100 years, but even now, I've run into many through work or church or what-have-you who have zero idea about events of the past. One gal I worked with, when I was reading the book "Shattered Sword" about the Battle of Midway, inquired about this big book I was lugging around during lunch break, and I explained it to her, had no idea that the battle had ever been fought. I cannot fathom not knowing something like that, but then again, to this gal and many others like her, how relevant is that knowledge to her life?
Vestal_Flame
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Quote:

WWII history received a big boost when "Saving Private Ryan",
I remember being told in 1999 by a docent / caretaker at the American Cemetery overlooking Omaha that Saving Private Ryan had revolutionized the tourist traffic through Colleville-sur-Mer.
Rabid Cougar
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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

Quote:

younger Americans might primarily think of WWI as the war that Wonder Woman fought.
Sadly, I laughed at this.

For my part, I am following my parents' example by teaching history to my own kids as my parents did with me. I don't profess to know about all eras, but I do have quite an interest in the period between 1918 and 1945, with a particular focus on WWII. To this end, I had many conversations with my now grown son regarding various events in the Second World War. Just about 3 years ago, when I finally met his then fiance, I asked them why they had chosen the date for their wedding, April 18. My son knew where I was going with that right away; my now daughter-in-law answered that it was the first available date at the venue they had chosen. To which I said it was a big day in American history - the Doolittle Raid happened on that date, as did the shoot-down of Admiral Yamamoto a year later.

I know from a recent bicycle ride with my 12-year-old daughter that she has been listening to some of my talks with her. My interest in WWII started, according to my mom, when she was pregnant with me (how she knew that I cannot say, but that's what she always told me) and she read books to me about WWII aviation. Consequently I have had a life-long fascination with all things warbird. I've described aerial combat to my daughter in events like the Battle of Britain, Midway and the Marianas Great Turkey Shoot, and told her that a good fighter pilot will always be aware of his "six" position, that is, what might be directly behind him. On the bike ride, my daughter ended up behind me on a sidewalk and told me that she was "on my six".

But I'm just one dad. I believe it is up to people to pass down the history that we know, whatever history that may be. Easier said than done, certainly, as there is a lot going against this - apathy for one, or even sinister stuff like "cleansed" history.

I hope that big historic events will still be remembered in 100 years, but even now, I've run into many through work or church or what-have-you who have zero idea about events of the past. One gal I worked with, when I was reading the book "Shattered Sword" about the Battle of Midway, inquired about this big book I was lugging around during lunch break, and I explained it to her, had no idea that the battle had ever been fought. I cannot fathom not knowing something like that, but then again, to this gal and many others like her, how relevant is that knowledge to her life?
Exactly how I learned about it from my Dad. Hours and hours of stories, building model airplanes, tanks and ships. Playing/war gamming with little men. Reading all of his books in his extensive library. Reading every interpretive sign at every ACW battlefield while on vacation. Doing living history when I was 15 years old. Just on and on.

I have done the same with both my boys. I can say that they have a very healthy respect/ knowledge base for history.
aggiejim70
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AG
My granddad, my mother's father, was a WWI vet and that defined him 'til his death in '91. He loved to tell two stories about the start and end of his service. Some sergeant came to the small farming community in Iowa to take charge of 6 or 8 enlistees and as they were marching to the train, they're being laughed at by 80 year old Civil War vets. The other was the morning of 11/11/18. He and his buddies went to draw ordinance for the day, but some captain told them to forget about it as the war would be over at 11AM and they were not going to kill anyone today. Everybody didn't see it that way as the big guns on both sides fired right up to 11.
The person that is not willing to fight and die, if need be, for his country has no right to life.

James Earl Rudder '32
January 31, 1945
The Original AG 76
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aggiejim70 said:

My granddad, my mother's father, was a WWI vet and that defined him 'til his death in '91. He loved to tell two stories about the start and end of his service. Some sergeant came to the small farming community in Iowa to take charge of 6 or 8 enlistees and as they were marching to the train, they're being laughed at by 80 year old Civil War vets. The other was the morning of 11/11/18. He and his buddies went to draw ordinance for the day, but some captain told them to forget about it as the war would be over at 11AM and they were not going to kill anyone today. Everybody didn't see it that way as the big guns on both sides fired right up to 11.
not to derail but the events of 11-11-18 were war crimes of the highest magnitude. the useless slaughter and the blood of thousands fell directly on the hands of the war mongering maniacs who were safely sitting on their rumps behind the lines.
45-70Ag
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I'm curious to know more about this.

What happened on that day before the guns went silent?
CanyonAg77
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One difference between WWI and today's historical events is the film/video technology advances. You don't have 20 different angles and live coverage of the sinking of the Lusitania, as you do with the Twin Towers on 9/11. With the JFK assassination, you have one grainy color film. Were that to happen today, you would have 1,000 high def cell phone videos, plus several network HD video feeds.

Although, in fairness, 99% of those cell phone videos will be crap, having been recorded vertically.

To go really Tin Foil Hat, we are within a few years of having the ability to make high quality fake videos, or high quality edits of real videos.

In 100 years, will they still teach that Al-Qaeda terrorists flew airliners into the Twin Towers, or will we have "real video" of Royal Canadian Air Force B-17s with confederate flags setting off photon torpedoes in suicide missions?

Those goofball 9/11 truthers will be arguing that it was airliners, and no one will believe them.
huisachel
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the Comanches were zen environmentalists who lived peacefully off the land in communion with the bison and then the evil whites showed up and ended the earthly paradise.

CanyonAg77
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huisachel said:

the Comanches were zen environmentalists who lived peacefully off the land in communion with the bison and then the evil whites showed up and ended the earthly paradise.
You and Captain Robert G. Carter would get along well.



Wrote the book in 1935, and was already complaining about the Nobel Savage myth.
Rabid Cougar
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huisachel said:

the Comanches were zen environmentalists who lived peacefully off the land in communion with the bison and then the evil whites showed up and ended the earthly paradise.


So very true!!

Lots of genocide and destruction of cultures going on in the Americas way before white people showed up. Of course the Stoic Native American is the only thing PC these days.
Apache
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The Original AG 76
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Irish_Man said:

I'm curious to know more about this.

What happened on that day before the guns went silent?
Both High Commands and many local commanders decided to fire off every damn gun and all the ammo they had resulting in many many thousand needless deaths. Some lunatic zealots ( on both sides) even ordered bloody assaults right up to 11AM for some insane quest for glory. Many local commanders refused and some were actually reprimanded ...it was pure insanity. One of the worst atrocities of a war full of atrocities.
The Original AG 76
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Apache said:


except this injun not real injun. He be heap big Italian named Espera Oscar de Corti
Apache
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Next thing you're gonna tell me the Comanche weren't zen environmentalists!!


CanyonAg77
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I grew up near Plainview, Texas. The Plainview Point is a arrowhead that defines a certain archaic Indian age. It was found at a "buffalo jump". A cliff where Indians ran an entire herd of buffalo off a cliff so they could butcher and eat a small portion of them.
The Original AG 76
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Apache said:

Next thing you're gonna tell me the Comanche weren't zen environmentalists!!



nope...they were definitely from the Confucius branch of environmentalists. Got it from the Chinese who the ancient aliens brought over along the Angel Maroni and the golden tablets
ja86
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Irish_Man said:

I'm curious to know more about this.

What happened on that day before the guns went silent?
As was mentioned above, front line commanders continued to assault right up to 11 am. There is a book written about it from the british perspective, I saw a bit on the BBC about discussing it several years ago. I will see if I can dig up the name of the book.

edit: found the show, "Last Day of World War One" episode in the 2008 season of the BBC Television series Timewatch.

Not the book i was looking for but... Eleventh Month, Eleventh Day, Eleventh Hour: Armistice Day, 1918 World War I and Its Violent Climax by Joseph E. Persico. Never read this book but it does cover the events in question.
45-70Ag
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Thanks for the reply
I'll check that out this weekend.

Somewhat mind boggling that commanders would throw their men into a meat grinder with the outcome already determined. But given how commanders viewed their men as expendable, guess it's not too surprising.
BQ78
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Joe Persico wrote a good book on the end of the war titled The Eleventh Month, Eleventh Day, Eleventh Hour.

Here are some Zen Comanche moments:

BrazosBendHorn
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Irish_Man said:

Thanks for the reply
I'll check that out this weekend.

Somewhat mind boggling that commanders would throw their men into a meat grinder with the outcome already determined. But given how commanders viewed their men as expendable, guess it's not too surprising.
Might have been a case of the commanders looking at an enormous pile of artillery ammo and figuring, "The more of these we fire off before 11 a.m., the fewer we'll have to account for or haul out of here when we bug out."

Just a conjecture ...
Vestal_Flame
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My home in Austin backs up to a park. The dominant topographic feature of the park is a creek. In the park, there is a stone monument to Josiah Pugh Wilbarger, who was scalped by Comanche on the banks of that creek and lived 12 years thereafter. I walk or drive past that monument every day.

The monument helps me to keep my current problems in perspective.
Comanche
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Indian Depredations in Texas by Wilbarger is an interesting old book.
who?mikejones
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Yes it is. I wonder how accurate or truthful it really is. Im sure that some of the stories are enhanced.

I dont doubt the violence of either the commanche or the settlers. But, that book was enlightening. I was living up near spicewood springs when I read it and, according to the book, a settler was killed near the headwater. It really put things in perspective.
huisachel
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The best one volume treatment of the Comanche menace to whites is by an Aggie, Scott Zesch, and is The Captives. He goes through the various captive narratives in some detail. One of the more interesting tidbits is the fact that a lot of the kids were not enthusiastic about going back to civilization after experiencing the free lives of the plains indians.

He is real strong on the Mason County area
CanyonAg77
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huisachel said:

The best one volume treatment of the Comanche menace to whites is by an Aggie, Scott Zesch, and is The Captives. He goes through the various captive narratives in some detail. One of the more interesting tidbits is the fact that a lot of the kids were not enthusiastic about going back to civilization after experiencing the free lives of the plains indians.

He is real strong on the Mason County area
Looking at how Comanche boys are raised, can you blame them?
ja86
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i find find it interesting that a quasi WW1 thread becomes Indian stories... there was enough brutality and inhumanity in Flanders alone in 4 years to match anything the Indians did let alone what happened in the rest of the world during the war. The numbers are mind numbing. .
Rabid Cougar
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CanyonAg77 said:

I grew up near Plainview, Texas. The Plainview Point is a arrowhead that defines a certain archaic Indian age. It was found at a "buffalo jump". A cliff where Indians ran an entire herd of buffalo off a cliff so they could butcher and eat a small portion of them.


I too lived in Plainview during my childhood . Spent many a night in the neighbors tornado shelter.
Rabid Cougar
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I know John Boy was killed right before the 11 th hour.
CanyonAg77
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Lived in the country between Plainview and Hale Center. Watched the flashes of light in Plainview as the 1972 tornado hit and blew up transformers and electric lines.
BrazosBendHorn
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ja86 said:

i find find it interesting that a quasi WW1 thread becomes Indian stories...
Awesome thread hijacks are a frequent hazard in the TexAgs forums, no question ...
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