Once a year, around Christmas time, I rewatch Ken Burns' The Civil War. I'm starting it tonight and am way more excited than i should be. It honestly might be the best historical documentary i've ever watched

Shelby foote alone makes that worth the time

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Shelby foote alone makes that worth the time

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This

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Shelby foote alone makes that worth the time

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If they just put all 8 hours unedited of that interview on a DVD id buy it

Pretty sure I could listen Shelby read the phone book.

[This message has been edited by Stive (edited 12/10/2013 11:37p).]

One of my greatest regrets in life is that the audio version of his Civil War trilogy wasn't read by him. What a waste

The decorated Virginia Tech Civil War historian and Stonewall Jackson scholar, James I. Robertson, Jr., once on television went almost (for an academician) into a fit when Foote's name came up. He said declaratively that a novelist -- which Foote had been -- had no business attempting serious historical study, and cited an instance in which Foote wrote of Jackson sucking on a lemon while watching his troops pass. Robertson, in what appeared to at least one viewer an almost religious fervor, stated that the South had no lemon trees and that it was a PEACH! As do so many, I enjoyed and enjoy Foote. But he could be pretty dramatic. I think Robertson was saying that serious history and theatre don't mix. And while it might not contribute much to his standing as a scholar, I thought it interesting to read that Robertson spent 16 seasons as an Atlantic Coast Conference football official.

[This message has been edited by jickyjack1 (edited 12/11/2013 3:05p).]

Wait a minute? Was Robertson saying the Foote is the only historian to claim the lemon thing with Jackson?

That legend seems to be pretty widespread...I'd be impressed if it was solely due to Footes statement.

Paging BQ78.....

Robertson said nothing about the origin of the assertion at all. I, too, had read well before seeing this program accounts of Jackson sucking on a lemon. The impression I came away with, however, was that whatever the origin of the statement, Robertson held it demonstrably false and Foote culpable as an historian for crediting it. Of course this is, in one way, a tempest in a teapot; in another it could go to the root of the discipline of historical study and presentation.

Stive:

The first person to say Stonewall ate lemons straight up was novelist John Esten Cooke in his book about Confederate Generals in the ANV, Wearing of the Gray, that was written in 1867. He said Jackson constantly sucked on lemons. I read that book in Jr. High and that was certainly one of the most impressionable thing about that book that I took away after reading it. But the lemon "myth" got wings with a supposed eyewitness, Richard Taylor (my GGGF's Brigade commander in the Valley) in his memoirs, Destruction and Reconstruction. So it is a primary resource but a weak one since it is a memoir and Taylor had a propensity to not let 100% accuracy stand in the way of an entertaining memoir.

When Bud was researching his great (although perhaps too loving) biography of Stonewall he ran the “myth” down. He thinks Cooke’s anecdote made such an impression on readers (like me) that Taylor perpetrated it too (“When the legend becomes fact, print the legend”). Bud using contemporary primary resources of Stonewall’s staff and his wife found no mention that he ate or sucked on lemons but that he did love fruit and that peaches were his favorite. In fact the only other contemporary eyewitness beside Taylor to mention Jackson and lemons was Raleigh Colston. Colston was trying to kill the myth and said that Jackson loved lemons when they were occasionally captured from the Federals. But instead of squashing the post-war myth it only seemed to increase it.

Bud’s is the best biography of Jackson but for a very good one with Stonewall’s warts included, read Frank Vandiver’s Mighty Stonewall.

As Jicky Jack says Bud was an ACC official. He was the referee at the 1975 Clemson vs. A&M game my sophomore year and says he was quite impressed by Aggieland and the polite fans. He said it was the only place he ever went where they announced the officials and the fans applauded at the beginning of the game. I don’t recall that, but he said that was the case. I scanned and sent him the pictures from that game from my 1976 Aggieland recently.

I enjoyed Foote on that show.

I read something several years ago about him, though...weird fellow. Apparently he put on a good show for Burns. Because he was apparently very stand-offish, cold and impersonal.

If I recall correctly, the guy that interviewed him for the story speculated that maybe he had just gotten too much unwanted attention after The Civil War.

Jacques, I heard the same thing. He became a celebrity in the worst sort of way: people called him, showed up at his home, etc.

I bet that got old REAL quick.


I often wondered if some of the Band Of Brothers guys had the same thing happen (especially Dick Winters).

I'm sure that's true but he also became a millionaire because of those documentaries.

It is still one of my favorites. I had just gotten out of college and was in my 1st teaching job when it came out. I thought Shelby Foote did an awesome job and made the show. Also, Burn's use of different actors to read quotes by people of the Civil War time period was a nice touch....Sam Waterston (Abe Lincoln), Jason Robards (Grant), Morgan Freeman (Frederick Douglass), etc.

I like how a serious historian goes on a rant about novellists having no place talking about history when almost no one in America would know who Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain is without "Killer Angels" which basically rescued him from obscurity.

Great summary of Foote in the his NYT obituary:

Shelby Foote, the historian whose incisive, seasoned commentary - delivered in a drawl so mellifluous that one critic called it "molasses over hominy" - evoked the Civil War for millions in the 11-hour PBS documentary in 1990, died on Monday at a Memphis hospital.

Professional historians can resent the authors of popular histories for a number of reasons, such as more attention, money, etc. They can also resent them because novelists and author of popular histories are oftentimes more adept at telling stories in a fashion that is more entertaining than the way a historian, burdened with the requirement for accuracy, is.

There have been more accurate histories of Sam Houston than Marquis James' The Raven, written back in the '30s but I still prefer James' magnificent book to the ones written by the more professional historians

Burns hit the motherload in using the novelist with a superb southern history background as a narrator. Foote just sounds like he was there and was blessed with an enthusiasm and a voice that was comfortable as a warm bath.

Well technically the narrator was David McCullogh.

Stephen Ambrose's "Undaunted Courage" about Lewis and Clark's expedition is also a very good book but it too perpetuates myths and legends. It reads a lot better that the journals though.



[This message has been edited by Rabid Cougar (edited 12/28/2013 11:43a).]

[This message has been edited by Rabid Cougar (edited 12/30/2013 11:35a).]

Huisachel, part of the resentment professional historians feel is that the popular historians often stand on their shoulders to make their money. On top of that, many of the plagiarism scandals have come from the ranks of the popular historians. Ambrose plagiarized and Goodwin flat out stole the work of others. Another problem is the tendency to tell a good story at the expense of nuance or even factual accuracy. Foote falls victim to this, as does the fellow who wrote John Adams. In my own line of research, nothing is worse than talking with someone who has read popular histories of the Puritans. The stereotypes and half-true stories are rampant.

[This message has been edited by sapperag (edited 12/28/2013 12:19p).]

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but it too perpetuates myths and ledgends

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Meet Stephen Ambrose

Just started this for the first time last week. Watched the first three parts so far. Love it. Foote, too. Man, it's been beyond interesting.

What are y'all's thoughts on Fields? She seems much more insistent on the slavery angle than anyone else, including the narration.

I'm sure that's why she was involved: to bring the issue up during periods where it was easy to stray away from the major social aspects of the conflict. My biggest problem with military histories of the Civil War (the most recent works are much better in this regard) is the tendency to treat the battles in splendid isolation from all but the most immediate tactical and strategic issues.

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What are y'all's thoughts on Fields? She seems much more insistent on the slavery angle than anyone else, including the narration.

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I kind of always thought her bits seemed forced. But that's kind of on Burns. She wouldn't have had any idea when she recorded her pieces, where they were going to go.

I've been watching these on Amazon Prime the last couple weeks. Fascinating. Shelby Foote is great. The way he talks it seems like he was there.

Mr Shelby was born and raised in my hometown in the Mississippi Delta. You are seeing and hearing the real man. I remember seeing him downtown when I was little in his white linen suit and straw hat, very dapper southern gentleman. Love to hear him talk in that series. Reminds so much of home. And the story telling, so much a part of the culture at home.
He spent alot of his youth growing up on his uncles plantation at Mount Holly on Lake Washington south of Greenville, a pre civil war plantation/home. If you knew or understood the Delta you would know why he was the way he was. It's a storied region with alot of history. To me it was the best place in the world to grow up, full of history and characters and Mr Shelby was just one of them.
I miss him.

I heard a story that he was upset with Burns for making him appear genial and kind. That he was really something of an SOB and liked it. Kind of funny if true.

If you ever wanted to hear someone talk about the ACW like he lived it, you needed to hear former A&M President Frank Vandiver. There was also another ACW History Professor that also looked like he was there. I do not remember his name. He could have been Foote's brother by the way he dressed and talked. He was at A&M in the early '80's

Rabid are you talking about Dr. Alan Ashcraft?

Yes, that's him! Class of 1950. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Rabid Cougar (edited 2/25/2014 8:53a).]

Took Dr Ashcraft's class back in the day...It wasn't so much a class as pure entertainment...

It was a joy !

Just about to finish it. Not sure how I never watched this. I have enjoyed it.

Dr. Ashcraft.