My Google fu is weak and failed me. I'm trying to help my sin on a project, we need maps of the battle of the Alamo, I've found some that are ok, but nothing that shows a scale on anything. Also we need one that shows the disposition of can on and troops if possible

Scale critical?

If there not a scale on it and I can figure out a reference length of a know. Part I can work it out, but that's more work for me Andes for the kid

Here you go, a floor plan.

Awesome thanks

Good luck.

awesome work p_bubel !!

Thanks.

I've been putting together a lot of before and after photos downtown on the San Antonio board and have gotten very familiar with the online resources for old maps and what-not.

Interestingly enough, and unknown to me up until recently, I went to high school right next to gun-battery placement "A" on the large map. The "Old Mill" location.

There's a push again to make the Alamo "whole," but I'm a realist and don't think much can come of it. Maybe if our mayor was interested in such things, but he's too busy doing nothing and getting groomed for higher office.

Yeah, those are great maps. I love looking at 'then vs. now' photos and maps.

Thanks!

Troy's Tractors dot com

The San Antonio Board Thread with some discussion if anyone is interested.


The flicker folder if anyone just wants to just see the images.

I was going to bump the old thread here and post the new links, but I can't find it through Google.

[This message has been edited by p_bubel (edited 4/8/2013 2:01p).]

Great maps thanks for posting.

I have had an Alamo historian tell me that one of the Cypress trees down by the river is the very tree that a Mexican soldier was sitting in when he shot Ben Milam, anyone know if this is true or apocryphal? People pass that tree all the time without knowing the history if it is true.

It's local lore for sure, but I could not tell you if its actually true or not.

The first battle for San Antonio

The Milam Tree is currently on the opposite side of the river across from the gun emplacements "F" next to the Veramendi Palace on that large map above.

[This message has been edited by p_bubel (edited 4/9/2013 3:10p).]

Here's a link to a great story about Ben Milam, his death, and his bones being moved 3 times (including a trip to Washington)! The article is written by one of my favorite Texas authors, Charlie Eckhardt......and, well....Old Ben might have been peeing when he got shot!
http://www.texasescapes.com/CFEckhardt/Ben-Milam.htm

p Bubel:

I like your San Antonio thread do you have a now location for this iconic photograph of the surrender of Twiggs in the Main Plaza of San Antonio. I've tried to figure where it might have been but don't know enough about what the plaza looked like in 1861.

Is there a bigger photo of the surrender?

From Harper's Weekly 1861:

quote:

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" On Friday evening the San Antonio K. G. C.'s, 200 in number—a well armed and equipped body—marched out to meet the coming troops under McCulloch, from the Salado, four miles off. At 2 o'clock on Saturday 200 of them--picked men—entered San Antonio on horseback as an advance-guard. Later, 500 more marched in. Guards were at once stationed around the arsenal, over the artillery-park, and all the Government buildings.

" A letter to a gentleman, who has kindly placed it at our disposal, says: 'After the city companies took possession of the Alamo, General Twiggs, accompanied by Major Nichols, met General McCulloch in the Main Plaza. The horsemen paraded around them, and there was a burst of cheers as the three officers met. A demand was made for the surrender of the Federal property, and the immediate evacuation of the place by the United States soldiers, without their arms. The reply was, that every soldier would be shot down before submitting to that disgrace.

" 'At half past 12 o'clock, however, terms were agreed upon. The soldiers leave town immediately, taking their side-arms, and a sufficient supply of stores to enable them to leave the State. They are getting ready to leave. They will camp at the San Pedro Springs, awaiting the arrival of Colonel Waite. The stores, houses, and shops are closed ; the streets are almost deserted, except by the Rangers and the K. G. C. The Alamo and Military Plaza present a very martial appearance. The Government property is now in charge of the citizen soldiers of the place. The volunteers are all well-armed. They are plainly dressed, some in kerseys, a fine-looking body of men, with a determined air."'

The Main Plaza is a large vacant square in the centre of the city. On one side is the Cathedral, an old dilapidated edifice, built by the Spaniards after the invasion of Mexico by Cortez. The other sides are occupied by stores and hotels. A quarter of a mile from the Plaza is the Alamo, the head-quarters of General Twiggs. This also is a very old building, once a church, and afterward trans-formed to a fortress. It was here that Colonel David Crockett and Colonel Bowie is—the inventor of the famous knife which bears his name—fell in the massacre by the Mexicans, under Santa Anna, in 1836. But three persons escaped. It is now occupied by the Texan troops.

---

Harper's Weekly

This one I have in the "to do" folder, but I have not seen the one you have posted.

It's hard to get a good idea of what buildings are in the photo.

p_Bubel:

While I'm sending you down to the plaza. Do this one too. I understand the building with auction on it is the location of the Council House Fight:

I wish that photographer had taken more than those two photos and one other that is similar to the one you posted that was taken after the surrender with wagons in the plaza. Taht one is actually a much clearer picture than the one you posted. Then again he may have but only those three seemed to have survived. Have you seen this one too:



It's not of the Twiggs surrender but close to that time. It looks like Fiesta 1861 becasue there are women and men in the photo all dressed up, lot's to see in that photo. Apparantly it is up for sale now too.



[This message has been edited by BQ78 (edited 4/11/2013 9:15a).]

Does the sign say "Paint Shop"?

Yes, the sign reads Paint Shop. I don't remember running across that sign in other photos, but I wasn't specifically looking for it either. I'll keep my eye open for it.


As for the council house, I have seen that photo referenced as the location and while I can't deny it is not it, I have my doubts from the location description usually associated with it.

quote:

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The talks were held at the council house, a one-story stone building adjoining the jail on the corner of Main Plaza and Calabosa (Market) Street.[11] During the council, the Comanche warriors sat on the floor, as was their custom, while the Texians sat on chairs on a platform facing them.[12] Lockhart had informed them that she had seen 15 other prisoners at the Comanche's principal camp several days before. She maintained that the Indians had wanted to see how high a price they could get for her, and that they then planned to bring in the remaining captives one at a time.

---

Market St and Main Plaza would put the building on the other side of the cathedral in the photo.

One description I've read is that is was on the northeast corner of market and main plaza which would put it right net to the riverwalk where the abandoned bookstore is. I'm not 100% certain and could easily be wrong.

In that photo though, the building to the right of the cathedral would become Frost Bros store and later Frost Bank. It's now the City Council building.

The photo you have called fiesta 1861 is not "Fiesta" per se. That did not start till 1891. I do remember there being a similar photo around that time and a description for it in my archives. It could be some general fiesta, it could also be Military Plaza, but I wanna say there was a specific reason they were all looking one direction.

You sure about the year in the photo?

I'll see if I can find it.

[This message has been edited by p_bubel (edited 4/11/2013 6:16p).]

I was joking about Fiesta 1861. The narrative on the site where the picture came from says circa 1858-61 and they are basing that on the fact that there is a crow's nest flagpole in the plaza that apparantly was only there during that timeframe. The narrative conjectured that it wasn't a festive occassion but maybe more solemn due to the abscence of ribbons and decorations. There does seem to be a brass band, however. If a solemn occcasion it isn't a funeral due to the abscence of funeral armbands and mourning ribbons.

D'oh.

I'll search around some this weekend and pull up the sandborn maps a maybe put some of this together on Sunday.

I think this is where it was, but haven't confirmed it yet. I'm still going through stuff. The earliest Sandborn I have access to is 1877.



Anyone have some spare change that I could borrow. I want that building in a bad way. Awesome location, and I suspect a lot of the old structure is buried underneath that facade.

Ok, found the site. I'm currently trying to track down a readable online version of a 1766 map drawn by Urrutia and now in the British Museum.

The site was originally called Casas Reales.

bubel - awesome stuff you have compiled. i get to work on many homes on the east side and i pretty much always wonder about the history some of them.

one of my favorites (have no clue when it was constructed) was made of bricks kindled in the front yard and timbers left over from some Fort Sam construction. it was quite an awesome house.

Thanks. I love doing this when I have the time. I think it's... important in some way. Understanding the past, and the why and how the city develops is interesting. And there is life to this city beyond the Alamo. A lot of really cool history in this town that the locals don't know. Maybe some understanding would foster an attitude of giving a ****.

There are some great homes on the east side. If you can recall some addresses I can try and find some info.

[This message has been edited by p_bubel (edited 4/13/2013 9:05p).]

[This message has been edited by p_bubel (edited 4/14/2013 10:12a).]

That balcony of the French Building is where two of the three Twiggs Surrender photos were taken and where the photogropher's (can't recall his name) studio was.