The distinction needs to be made between ACUTE and CHRONIC inflammation.

KidDoc said:

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The seed oil problem is not caloric it is inflammatory and creation of free radicals resulting in confused immune systems and damaged LDL which then leads to dyslipidemia (high LDL low HDL) and encourages plaque formation.

PUFA-Project: Scientific References on Seed Oil Toxicity - Dr. Cate

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I really think more study needs to be done before we know seed oils are bad. To me, if I need fat in my macros, and seed oil is the only thing available, I have no issue consuming it to get to my caloric goals. Again, I am likely not the one who would have issues given exactly how I just put that. I do not eat much "processed" (term used in the way most mean it, junk food in this case as everything is processed technically-you have to process a piece of fruit just to pick it, process meat to de-bone, de-feather and package it, etc and those are "whole" foods) foods. Why? Vanity and health. Mosdt junk foos or over fatty tasty food isn't macro goal friendly and so by my very nature of wanting to be lower than 15% BF and look good with my shirt off, I eat "whole" foods. I do not believe GMOs are bad nor do I believe "organic" is actually beneficial.

But, I do have UC. Got it in my 30's. How? I ate healthy and for vanity purposes all the way back to HS. ANd I am 100% natty. No gear. Never have taken it (though it is always tempting to have a little-my test is HIGH already, but being 1200-1500 would be nice). So where did this come from? Food, stress? Hard to blame food when I was never overweight, in great shape and meal prepped since the early 00's. Again, more research needs to be done, no doubt.

KidDoc said:

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Agree to disagree! I know I've been able to get off several asthma meds since cleaning up my diet so I'm happy with digging into the biochemistry of lipid oxidation.

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I'm not sure we are disagreeing. I specifically said that most people can benefit from reducing/limiting their consumption of processed foods.

But for anyone to specifically state that seed oils are the cause of all inflammation (or that eliminating them will reduce or eliminate inflammation) is not the whole story by any stretch.

If you "cleaned up" your diet, you likely eliminated a lot more than just seed oils (and lost weight in the process), so there is no way your from a scientific standpoint that your improvements could be completely attributed to the one variable of eliminating or reducing seed oils.

That's a critical part of the scientific method - you can only change one variable at a time if you want to be able to isolate its effect.

Capitol Ag said:

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My one worry about all of these devices is it gives us another thing to distract us from why we are doing this. I do think eventually these will become a very accurate, but they just aren't yet. It can cause paralysis through analysis imo. Just train and listen to your body. Deload when needed.

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To me, my Garmin watch, with all it's metrics, is like my scale - I'm more concerned about trends than 100% accuracy. Is my VO2max precisely 46 ml/kg/min? Probably not but it's trending up which means I'm on the right track. Same with my Sleep Score, Body Battery, and Training Readiness.

My Fitness Age score encourages me to get in more Vigorous days and minutes and my Load Focus makes me do more Low Aerobic work which I know I need but despise.

If I simply listened to my body, I would just lift and sprint as that's what I'm good at and what I like to do.

I'd ignore the Garmin. I do think 6 days a week is better than 7. But I've never been a marathoner. I find weight loss is easier with lighter workouts than strenuous due to appetite.

KidDoc said:

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Agree to disagree! I know I've been able to get off several asthma meds since cleaning up my diet so I'm happy with digging into the biochemistry of lipid oxidation.

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And this could be a thing. It might effect you differently then me or another. Eventually I do think we will get to a point where accurate readings of each person's biology will be a thing. Enough so to prevent issues before they happen. Seed oils may jack up some and leave others alone.

I just think a device, with the tech we have now, isn't at the point where we know that today I should go light on squats for recovery or its PR day, or that I shouldn't go for a PR in my run today, when it turns out you blow through your last distance/time record.

I do think its good to use to be aware that your sleep, for instance, isn't the best. But how have you felt? Tired, irritable, less focused? Or you feel like you could know know the ears off a gundark, so maybe just be aware and try a few things to make your sleep better. Cooler room, white noise, less or more sheets, less clothes/no clothes etc., maybe melatonin. I have done all of these and they actually have helped. Sometimes I just wake up at 1-3am. I found that literally a 2-3 second jump into a cold shower, dry off and jump back in back and I am out almost immediately. Also, no caffine after 3pm, and really 1pm if possible. I dropped preworkouts in the evening and it probably has helped. I used to take one for 5-6pm training sessions. Now I don't take them and guess what, training sessions are just as good! Why, as long as your sleep is good, you are fine to train. But get into the never ending cycle of being tired b/c you slept crappy the night b4 b/c of you preworkout from the evening training session and so you have to take a pre to train tonight, and the cycle never ends....

Capitol Ag said:

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KidDoc said:

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The seed oil problem is not caloric it is inflammatory and creation of free radicals resulting in confused immune systems and damaged LDL which then leads to dyslipidemia (high LDL low HDL) and encourages plaque formation.

PUFA-Project: Scientific References on Seed Oil Toxicity - Dr. Cate

---

I really think more study needs to be done before we know seed oils are bad. To me, if I need fat in my macros, and seed oil is the only thing available, I have no issue consuming it to get to my caloric goals. Again, I am likely not the one who would have issues given exactly how I just put that. I do not eat much "processed" (term used in the way most mean it, junk food in this case as everything is processed technically-you have to process a piece of fruit just to pick it, process meat to de-bone, de-feather and package it, etc and those are "whole" foods) foods. Why? Vanity and health. Mosdt junk foos or over fatty tasty food isn't macro goal friendly and so by my very nature of wanting to be lower than 15% BF and look good with my shirt off, I eat "whole" foods. I do not believe GMOs are bad nor do I believe "organic" is actually beneficial.

But, I do have UC. Got it in my 30's. How? I ate healthy and for vanity purposes all the way back to HS. ANd I am 100% natty. No gear. Never have taken it (though it is always tempting to have a little-my test is HIGH already, but being 1200-1500 would be nice). So where did this come from? Food, stress? Hard to blame food when I was never overweight, in great shape and meal prepped since the early 00's. Again, more research needs to be done, no doubt.

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This. I do not avoid seed oils. I do manage my caloric intake and maximize protein consumption. When you do that, it inherently limits how much high-calorie, ultra processed food you can consume, which has an overall positive impact on your health.

There are many sources of seed oils in my diet that I enjoy on a weekly, if not daily basis. What I do avoid are fried foods and high-fat foods, especially high fat processed foods. Mainly because, at my calorie needs, I just can't consume a whole lot of fat without exceeding my calorie target.

There are also issues with extrapolating any singular biochemical pathway that is observed to have negative effects in a lab study to the effects on the human body as a whole. Layne Norton has some excellent posts on this.

His position is that no individual biochemical pathway exists in isolation.

From his X: " You can ALWAYS find a biochemical pathway or mechanism to support whatever narrative you want

But OUTCOMES like fat loss, muscle gain, heart disease, cancer, etc are not the result of one or even a few biochemical pathways... they are the summation of HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS of pathways

Now if an outcome occurs, there will be a mechanism(s) to support it, but just because a mechanism exists does NOT mean it will cause an outcome"

As an engineer, this makes total sense to me. As a result, I focus total caloric intake, protein intake, exercise, and my critical annual lab results (A1C, cholesterol, ApoB, etc) rather than any individual ingredients, supplements, "chemicals", "toxins", or whatever other buzzwords are trending on social media.

As a side note, anyone who worries about seed oils, fructose, or any other "toxin" in their body and still consumes alcohol on a regular basis is focused on the wrong things.

As always, this is the most reasonable response.

Everyone gravitates to the the "issue de jour" when it comes to health. There is no magic bullet and one thing that fix everything. Its all in concert and in conjuction with an overall lifestyle.

In the end, it all simply comes down to a few key principles, the rest is just genetic and luck:
(1) Understand your caloric maintenance requirement.
(2) Eat more than this, gain weight (weightlifting affects how the weight gain works).
(3) Eat less than this, lose weight (weightlifting affects how the weight loss works).
(4) Eat enough protein (about as much as your lean body mass. But, between 100 to 200 for most people)
(5) Eat whole foods to the extent possible (ie, shop on the outside of the grocery store for the most part).
(6) Eat more carbs if work out regularly
(7) Limit fat (but don't obcess)
(8) Don't drink calories.

Do this, and you are well on your way to at the very least not being fat.

TXTransplant said:

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If you "cleaned up" your diet, you likely eliminated a lot more than just seed oils (and lost weight in the process), so there is no way your from a scientific standpoint that your improvements could be completely attributed to the one variable of eliminating or reducing seed oils.

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I agree with this completely. The H&F industry is always out to find the boogeyman.