For those of you who've ran a sub 3 hour marathon, what made the biggest difference in getting you there?

Aiming for sub 3:30 or better at Houston in January but eventually that's where I want to be and hopefully will in 2026.

I've made the journey from 3:35 to 2:49 and here are a few things I've learned:

1) Run a lot. There is no substitute for running. You can supplement with other cardio but only after you're at 4-5 days a week of running.

2) Run slow to run fast. When I was building back from an injury last fall and winter, 90% of my miles were at 8:00 - 8:15 pace or slower (70 to 90 seconds slower than marathon race pace). Running slow focuses the effort on your aerobic fitness (very important) but allows you to stay healthy and run more (see point #1). Most people don't run slow enough during training.

3) Find a coach and follow a plan. The Hal Higdon plans aren't going to get you there. I've had the good fortune of working with three amazing coaches who all contributed to my progress in different ways. I'm now self coached but only because of what I've learned from them. If you're serious about this goal, find a coach to help you build your fitness in a sustainable way. I can give you a few names if you'd like.

Please throw me some names! Preference is to have a coach in Houston.

Houston will be my first Marathon although I've ran a couples Half's and long distance trained for about 3 years. Plan to do a second Marathon in the Spring in Milwaukee on 4/12.

Sooner Born said:

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I've made the journey from 3:35 to 2:49 and here are a few things I've learned:

1) Run a lot. There is no substitute for running. You can supplement with other cardio but only after you're at 4-5 days a week of running.

2) Run slow to run fast. When I was building back from an injury last fall and winter, 90% of my miles were at 8:00 - 8:15 pace or slower (70 to 90 seconds slower than marathon race pace). Running slow focuses the effort on your aerobic fitness (very important) but allows you to stay healthy and run more (see point #1). Most people don't run slow enough during training.

3) Find a coach and follow a plan. The Hal Higdon plans aren't going to get you there. I've had the good fortune of working with three amazing coaches who all contributed to my progress in different ways. I'm now self coached but only because of what I've learned from them. If you're serious about this goal, find a coach to help you build your fitness in a sustainable way. I can give you a few names if you'd like.

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I never went sub 3, but got close. I regret only taking one shot at it before I switched to trail running. I went 4:50, 4:19, 3:45, 3:15, 3:05. Pretty much what sooner said, though I'll add consistency as well. Remember, it's way easier to shave 5 minutes off a 3:30 than it is to shave a minute off a 3:01.

All that, and hope you got lucky with the right genes to run that fast.

Lots of miles.

Staying healthy.

Running partners that will push you.

AggieOO said:

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You can't just run slow. You also need to be doing speed and tempo work. Hill repeats as well.

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Yeah, I'd do 8 miles of hill repeats, 12 miles of tempo, all-out 10K's, 6x mile repeats, 15 - 18 mile slow runs...all the predictors would say sub-3:40. Just wired differently.

My Garmin says right now that my marathon prediction is 3:23. I guess it's really impressed with my 200 repeats and my 25 minute 5K this morning, lol.

94chem said:

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I don't know. After taking up running at 45 and running 7 marathons between 47 and 50, I finally broke 4 hours. Rarely even got sore training for marathons, even running up to 70 miles per week. Can't imagine running 3:20, which is my Boston qualifying time. The whole "running slow" stuff just didn't work. I could pile on miles and miles, and never got a bit faster. So, having good parents must help.

On the bright side, I realized I have a chance to become a national class sprinter in the 100/200/400. I'm gonna work on that for now.

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What is this? I didn't realize older people ran competitively in these. I'm assuming this isn't Olympic stuff.

Masters, even Seniors track, is a thing.
And it's impressive.

Sooner Born said:

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I've made the journey from 3:35 to 2:49 and here are a few things I've learned:

1) Run a lot. There is no substitute for running. You can supplement with other cardio but only after you're at 4-5 days a week of running.

2) Run slow to run fast. When I was building back from an injury last fall and winter, 90% of my miles were at 8:00 - 8:15 pace or slower (70 to 90 seconds slower than marathon race pace). Running slow focuses the effort on your aerobic fitness (very important) but allows you to stay healthy and run more (see point #1). Most people don't run slow enough during training.

3) Find a coach and follow a plan. The Hal Higdon plans aren't going to get you there. I've had the good fortune of working with three amazing coaches who all contributed to my progress in different ways. I'm now self coached but only because of what I've learned from them. If you're serious about this goal, find a coach to help you build your fitness in a sustainable way. I can give you a few names if you'd like.

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i'd be interested in some coaching recs

sherminator said:

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94chem said:

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I don't know. After taking up running at 45 and running 7 marathons between 47 and 50, I finally broke 4 hours. Rarely even got sore training for marathons, even running up to 70 miles per week. Can't imagine running 3:20, which is my Boston qualifying time. The whole "running slow" stuff just didn't work. I could pile on miles and miles, and never got a bit faster. So, having good parents must help.

On the bright side, I realized I have a chance to become a national class sprinter in the 100/200/400. I'm gonna work on that for now.

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What is this? I didn't realize older people ran competitively in these. I'm assuming this isn't Olympic stuff.

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Yeah, you basically have world standards for every age group. For example, no human being over 50 has ever broken 11 seconds in the 100m. The record is 11.1, for the 50-54 men's age group. You divide that number by your time, and multiply by 100%. >70% is considered regional class, >80% is national class, >90% is world class. My targets in the 100/200/400 would be 13.44/27.36/61.18 for making 80%. I may already be under 13 in the 100m, but idk. My 400 is 64.80, but it was 72 a few months ago.

94chem said:

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My Garmin says right now that my marathon prediction is 3:23. I guess it's really impressed with my 200 repeats and my 25 minute 5K this morning, lol.

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I never bought into those predictions. It's good for self esteem but that's about it. I'd knock out a good tempo run and be rewarded w/ a 3:05 prediction.

Lots of good input above about making slow actually slow, staying healthy as you build, nutrition, etc.

For your speed work- make sure this looks like a marathon. 400s, short sprints, etc are good, but you you should focus on longer tempo type efforts or cut down runs. I like to do these as parts of longer runs a couple times per month. Get your legs accustomed to pushing the effort once they are tired. That's the name of the game in faster marathoning

One workout I liked was 4x 5K repeats, starting at marathon pace with a recovery lap between, and the last 5K at half marathon pace. Didn't make me any faster, but it felt like a good workout.

The 20 miler before tapering was kind of a waste of time, once I already knew I could run that far. I could've done double digit miles every day for a month, and my calves would still cramp at mile 23, and I'd be back to 6 miles 2 days after the race. What finally got me under 4 hours was KT tape on the calves, and running double digit miles at sub-marathon pace every other day for the 2 months leading up to the race. Perhaps unorthodox, but whatever.

I also liked running half marathons on back to back days. It gave a decent picture of what 26.2 would feel like.

One other test. Do a 10K time trial early in your training. Do another one a few months later. If you aren't faster, your marathon probably isn't faster either. Tons of runners hit PR's in other distances while training for the marathon. I did this in the 5K and 10K, which means that now I'm more into track, my 5K PR is likely set. Oh well, it was a pedestrian 21:51 anyway.

The Pilot said:

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Running partners that will push you.

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circling back on this. I think this was one of the most important pieces. You can do it on your own, but it is so much easier when you have a training group. When I was at my fastest, I was running with a lot of guys (and girls) who were much faster than me. I also had people around my speed, but having people who can push you...or even drop you, helps a lot. I was lucky that I was in NYC, so there was no shortage of people to train with who were 2:30-3 hour marathoners, but those people are out there, unless maybe you are somewhere super rural.

AggieOO said:

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The Pilot said:

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Running partners that will push you.

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circling back on this. I think this was one of the most important pieces. You can do it on your own, but it is so much easier when you have a training group. When I was at my fastest, I was running with a lot of guys (and girls) who were much faster than me. I also had people around my speed, but having people who can push you...or even drop you, helps a lot. I was lucky that I was in NYC, so there was no shortage of people to train with who were 2:30-3 hour marathoners, but those people are out there, unless maybe you are somewhere super rural.

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I've always wondered about this as it kind of confused me.

You hear so much about running slow for the majority of your runs. But then comments like this. Is it as simple as pushing with a training group for tempo and speed runs but keeping it slow on easy runs or am I missing something?

htxag09 said:

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AggieOO said:

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The Pilot said:

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Running partners that will push you.

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circling back on this. I think this was one of the most important pieces. You can do it on your own, but it is so much easier when you have a training group. When I was at my fastest, I was running with a lot of guys (and girls) who were much faster than me. I also had people around my speed, but having people who can push you...or even drop you, helps a lot. I was lucky that I was in NYC, so there was no shortage of people to train with who were 2:30-3 hour marathoners, but those people are out there, unless maybe you are somewhere super rural.

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I've always wondered about this as it kind of confused me.

You hear so much about running slow for the majority of your runs. But then comments like this. Is it as simple as pushing with a training group for tempo and speed runs but keeping it slow on easy runs or am I missing something?

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yes. your easy runs should be easy. Long runs are 60-90 secs slower than race pace (unless you have a pace block within that run, which is useful if done correctly) Your track/tempo/speed/etc should be fast. you should stay away from the middle ground as much as possible.

One of the guys I ran with was ~2:45 marathoner. His runs were 6:00/mile or faster and ~9 min/miles. and almost nothing between 6:00-9:00.

Just a comment on number 3. I ran my first ever marathon this year (I'm 41) at the Austin marathon and trained using the Run With Hal app (intermediate 1 level). I ran a 3:09 and qualified for Boston. I'm using the app again this year to run the Houston (shooting for sub 3) to hopefully get a better BQ time so I can actually get in. I know it may not work for everyone, but I've been pretty happy with the RWH app. Who knows, maybe I'd do much better with a coach, but its nice to have the flexibility using the app when it comes to work travel, holidays, etc.

n_dagley said:

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Just a comment on number 3. I ran my first ever marathon this year (I'm 41) at the Austin marathon and trained using the Run With Hal app (intermediate 1 level). I ran a 3:09 and qualified for Boston. I'm using the app again this year to run the Houston (shooting for sub 3) to hopefully get a better BQ time so I can actually get in. I know it may not work for everyone, but I've been pretty happy with the RWH app. Who knows, maybe I'd do much better with a coach, but its nice to have the flexibility using the app when it comes to work travel, holidays, etc.

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There are a lot of ways to shave time. I went from 4:13 to 3:17 with Hal. Pete/fast runner partners took me to a 2:55.

I should have said Free Hal Higdon plans and admittedly a lot has changed with Hal since I last looked at his plans so I could be totally wrong. Do you have to pay for the Run with Hal app?

My experience with the free plans he had available a few years ago was fast friends being under trained respective to their goals. They had the speed but not the mileage in their legs, especially at Marathon Pace efforts, to hold the pace for 26 miles.

Having said that, a lot could have changed

I'm now a Pfitz - Advanced Marathoning believer. I almost ran a marathon PB and half marathon PB running 30% fewer miles with the program. I plan in giving Jack Daniels 2Q program a go for a marathon next year though, just to see what it's all about.

Do you use the 18/55 or 18/70 plan, or something similar?

18/55. I did modify some of the last few weeks before the taper so that I went 55 for four weeks in a row but basically followed the 18:/55 plan. Did it for Boston and then Chicago.

I'm now old (44) and have had a couple of stress fractures in the last few years so this is my attempt at keeping reasonable.

Yes the app has a fee of $70/year but you can use it to train for multiple race distances and it's extremely versatile. There are many variables you can set and it will adjust as you go based on how your training is going.