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Tips/Training techniques to improve 5k times

2,072 Views | 23 Replies | Last: 2 mo ago by AgLiving06
texag06ish
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5:02p, 8/1/24
AG
I've been working on improving my 5K times over the past few months and I have been making steady progress. My current goal is 25:20 and my PR is 26:39.

I currently run 2 5K's per week and have been consistently finishing below 27 minutes. I feel like I'm pushing myself but I am definitely slowing down off pace by 30-40 seconds on last 2 KM's.

Please let me know if there is any other info I need to share to help improve advice. Thanks in advance!
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'03ag
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7:19p, 8/1/24
Stop running "5ks" and pushing yourself and thinking you're getting faster

Slow down. Run more miles and build an aerobic base. Mix in some speed work but not too much
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BadMoonRisin
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8:10p, 8/1/24
AG
read up on zone 2 training.

"Run Slow to Go Fast."

I know its counterintuitive and you will not feel great about yourself and how slow you have to go to stay in zone 2 -- i know it frustrated me.. at first I basically had to start walking to keep my heart rate in zone so it made me feel like I was regressing -- but after a month of consistency (and running race pace once or twice if you want to), give it a go and you will be surprised. It really helps.
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94chem
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In reply to texag06ish • 8:26p, 8/1/24
You're already there. First cool day and you'll do it.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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94chem
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In reply to BadMoonRisin • 8:47p, 8/1/24
BadMoonRisin said:
read up on zone 2 training.

"Run Slow to Go Fast."

I know its counterintuitive and you will not feel great about yourself and how slow you have to go to stay in zone 2 -- i know it frustrated me.. at first I basically had to start walking to keep my heart rate in zone so it made me feel like I was regressing -- but after a month of consistency (and running race pace once or twice if you want to), give it a go and you will be surprised. It really helps.


You can try this, but if it doesn't work, don't worry about it.

I dropped my 5K from 31 minutes to 21:52 over a 5 year period from age 45 to 50. Dropped my mile from 6:43 to 5:54. After 7 marathons, I'm now running track and field, and down to a 1:04 in the 400.

While I agree that you need one long run of 5+ miles during the week, it doesn't need to be extremely slow. You get fast by running fast. You just can't run fast EVERY day.

If you live in a hot climate, you have to run intervals at your target pace. I'm talking about 400, 800, and 1600 repeats. Take them indoors to a treadmill if you need to. The speed muscles can't get trained if you don't hit your interval paces.

Also, use the cheat code. It's called hills. I run them on the treadmill. The pace is slower and the recovery is easier, but the muscle work still gets done.

Try this weekly plan for a 5K:

-6x800 at 5K pace with slow recovery laps between, or 10x400 at mile pace with standing rest
-4 miles at 10K pace recovery
-8x400 at 6% incline at marathon pace, with recovery laps at marathon pace; or 2 mile slow warmup followed by 2mi time trial at 90% effort
-core resistance training, like pull-ups, crunches, push-ups
-6 miles at marathon pace
-3x mile repeats at 5K pace with recovery laps
-day off

Mix it up and find an order that works for you. Depending on your age, joint health, and weather, you may need more recovery days. But regardless, with the right speed work, you can get faster at about 25 miles per week, including warm-up miles.

I got up to 65+ miles/week, but it inly make me a slower marathoner. I got faster by running every other day and running most of my miles at sub-marathon pace, and found that 35 miles per week was plenty.

You may be the same, or not. Just don't assume that more, slower miles will make you a better 5K runner.

Best of luck! Again, those are just some workouts I've done. Mix and match how you need to. But to get fast, you have to run fast!



94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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texag06ish
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9:15p, 8/1/24
AG
Thanks for the tips. Looks like I have some reading to do.
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94chem
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In reply to texag06ish • 9:51p, 8/1/24
texag06ish said:
Thanks for the tips. Looks like I have some reading to do.


Yeah, Every machine is different. You could do what the top XC teams in the UIL are doing, but a 17 YO 120 lb boy might not be your best example. Just be careful about the "American ethos" trap that says more is better. Quality, not quantity.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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texag06ish
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In reply to '03ag • 5:08a, 8/2/24
AG
This is probably part of my problem. I am trying to accomplish too many goals at once because I'm also doing alot of resistance training to add some bulk after losing a bunch of weight. In other words, at this point I am really limiting cardio with the exception of working toward reaching this one goal. It seems like cardio and building muscle dont necessarily mix.
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texag06ish
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In reply to 94chem • 7:35a, 8/2/24
AG
I'm definitely getting in a bunch of hills. My original route was in my hill country neighborhood and had at least 300 ft of elevation gain over the course of the route. With that said, the hills are rolling and while the overall route is downhill to the halfway point and uphill back it's still very up and down.

The first time I got on flat ground I immediately shaved 3 min off my time.

Now I try to run before I lift and my route is mostly flat. I'll mix in my old route at least 1x per week.
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RustyBoltz
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In reply to texag06ish • 9:44a, 8/2/24
AG
texag06ish said:
It seems like cardio and building muscle don't necessarily mix.
That's not really what he's saying.
There's some pretty good plots in Hanson's Marathon Method he uses to illustrate the body's adaptations under different running paces. Running easier paces allows you to run more miles, more frequently to build a big base. Sprinkle in occasional tempo runs and high intensity sprint workouts to balance out your high aerobic and anaerobic capacity.
Strength training can coexist but the focus should be on functional strength (compound lifts, hill repeats, etc) if you want to be a faster runner.
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CollinAB
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In reply to 94chem • 10:20a, 8/2/24
AG
94chem said:
Try this weekly plan for a 5K:

-6x800 at 5K pace with slow recovery laps between, or 10x400 at mile pace with standing rest
-4 miles at 10K pace recovery
-8x400 at 6% incline at marathon pace, with recovery laps at marathon pace; or 2 mile slow warmup followed by 2mi time trial at 90% effort
-core resistance training, like pull-ups, crunches, push-ups
-6 miles at marathon pace
-3x mile repeats at 5K pace with recovery laps
-day off
I'd be careful following this outline. Running with structured intensity like this every day you run is just a more complicated version of what you're already doing trying to run a fast 5k each run. Sure, there are more paces involved, but this just looks like a recipe for burnout and breakdown.

With a thoughtfully structured training program, there is room for both quantity and quality. The balance between the two is different for everybody, but you really don't need (and long-term, probably can't handle) more than two "quality" days a week. To counter his example, I got substantially faster at 70-80 miles per week with two "quality" days (second one often rolled into a long run) a week and the other 4-5 days being easy volume.

Certainly you don't have to run that much weekly mileage to improve, but you don't have to make every day a workout either.
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Pro Sandy
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10:28a, 8/2/24
AG
I've only been running the past two years.

My first 5k was in August 2022, about a 9 min/mile pace. Since then, I'm doing cardio almost everyday, running 4ish days/week, walking or hiking the others. Gym to bike and row when it rains. At home strength training once a week.

My biggest growth came when I started training for longer distances. I have no set plan, just run. Most days about a 5k, but usually once a week long, 5-10 miles.

I don't worry about the pace when running on my own, just sign up for races that make me go for speed. The distance though has been key. Result is that last month, set a PR in mile (6:44) and 5k, just over 7 minute mile.

So that's my secret, just run and sign up for races to go fast.
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94chem
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In reply to texag06ish • 12:08p, 8/2/24
If you're worried about lifting, jumping, explosiveness, then sure, you have to mix in weights, plyometrics, all that stuff, but you're not training for a decathlon. Also, if you trained like an elite runner, you would do that. But if you're the typical weekend warrior with limited time, most of the 5K training should be running. Again, you may be different, but distance running gave me the most defined core and forearms I've had. I couldn't lift as much, but I was ripped. I think it came from the constant speed/recovery cycle.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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94chem
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In reply to Pro Sandy • 12:22p, 8/2/24
Pro Sandy said:
I've only been running the past two years.

My first 5k was in August 2022, about a 9 min/mile pace. Since then, I'm doing cardio almost everyday, running 4ish days/week, walking or hiking the others. Gym to bike and row when it rains. At home strength training once a week.

My biggest growth came when I started training for longer distances. I have no set plan, just run. Most days about a 5k, but usually once a week long, 5-10 miles.

I don't worry about the pace when running on my own, just sign up for races that make me go for speed. The distance though has been key. Result is that last month, set a PR in mile (6:44) and 5k, just over 7 minute mile.

So that's my secret, just run and sign up for races to go fast.


Good insights, but I can tell from reading your post that we are made VERY differently. My last time trial mile was 6:02, and my 5K was 23:07. These were several months after completing my 7th marathon, so I was running plenty of miles. The fact that you are running a sub-22 5K but can't break 6:44 in the mile is pretty normal. Go check the "expert" pacing guides, age-adjusted distance percentile, and they show that you probably land about the same percentile across several distances. I don't. After running 5K, 10K, half and full marathons for 6 years, the simple truth is that I'm a track athlete. After running distance for those years and not sprinting at all, I became a mediocre age group marathoner (3:59). However, after a few months on the track after never running track in my life, I'm within striking distance of being a national class runner (1:02 is the mark).

You have to learn what makes YOU work.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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94chem
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In reply to CollinAB • 12:23p, 8/2/24
CollinAB said:
94chem said:
Try this weekly plan for a 5K:

-6x800 at 5K pace with slow recovery laps between, or 10x400 at mile pace with standing rest
-4 miles at 10K pace recovery
-8x400 at 6% incline at marathon pace, with recovery laps at marathon pace; or 2 mile slow warmup followed by 2mi time trial at 90% effort
-core resistance training, like pull-ups, crunches, push-ups
-6 miles at marathon pace
-3x mile repeats at 5K pace with recovery laps
-day off
I'd be careful following this outline. Running with structured intensity like this every day you run is just a more complicated version of what you're already doing trying to run a fast 5k each run. Sure, there are more paces involved, but this just looks like a recipe for burnout and breakdown.

With a thoughtfully structured training program, there is room for both quantity and quality. The balance between the two is different for everybody, but you really don't need (and long-term, probably can't handle) more than two "quality" days a week. To counter his example, I got substantially faster at 70-80 miles per week with two "quality" days (second one often rolled into a long run) a week and the other 4-5 days being easy volume.

Certainly you don't have to run that much weekly mileage to improve, but you don't have to make every day a workout either.


You're right - this is aggressive, and even with throwing in alternate workouts as suggested, it's only intended for a 3 week cycle ending in a time trial. Then take a week and just do recovery mileage, slow runs, clear the palate...
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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texag06ish
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In reply to 94chem • 1:41p, 8/2/24
AG
Im in the middle of trying to recomposition my body…for reference here is my post from the Weightlifting and 2024 Fat Loss and Health Goals threads. I am sharing to help ground where I am with this journey I am on. The running is a secondary goal but a goal I want to achieve.

"Sharing my post from another thread with the gyms bros…

Today is a big day for me.

I've been maniacally focused on losing weight by managing my macros for 50 weeks and I've lost 130lbs.

Today I'm adding 300 calories to my daily goal and cutting out all cardio (except my 2x a week 5k because I have a goal to complete a Thanksgiving 5k in 25:20) to try and build muscle. I'm nervous about the changes but I have confidence in my data points and calculations.

I got a DEXA scan last Wednesday so I have solid numbers for my starting point:
Weight: 197.9
Lean Mass: 158.4
Total Body Fat: 31.7lbs
Body Fat %: 16%
Visceral Fat: 1.95

I'm going to work through at least 1 (maybe 2, depending on results) of my cycles and reevaluate my macros. Ultimately my main goal is 20lb of body fat and weight between 185-195.

My next DEXA is in 6 weeks. Let's see how this goes."

To summarize, if I had to choose, I'd rather have the calories go toward building muscle vs adding more cardio.
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94chem
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In reply to texag06ish • 3:55p, 8/2/24
Awesome accomplishments. You may be better off running 3-4 days per week, and keeping under 20 miles. Take that one week plan and stretch it into two, and cross-train twice per week. Just remember that you have to run fast to get fast, and don't be surprised if you are sluggish after stacking a speed workout after hard cross-training. Blasting your core often calls for a slow run the next day.
94chem,
That, sir, was the greatest post in the history of TexAgs. I salute you. -- Dough
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Matsui
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In reply to texag06ish • 7:20a, 8/3/24
AG
Congrats on this huge achievements. Keep up the work and I hope you find things that work for you!
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texag06ish
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8:56a, 8/8/24
AG
Improvement. 26:28 today.
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bert harbinson
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10:52a, 8/8/24
AG
Not much new to add, but I think you're on the right track. Most of your days should be easy, say 3-5 miles. Then an easy paced long run of 6-10 miles and track intervals, once a week for each. You can also incorporate a few fast bursts of 30-60 seconds on any of your easy runs. Your hilly runs and running through the heat of the summer will definitely payoff in a November 5k.
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texag06ish
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5:44a, 9/12/24
AG
24:42 this morning. BOOM MF'ers!
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13B
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7:49a, 9/12/24
Cross train. CrossFit yields great results (anecdotally) as long as you continue to run.
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texag06ish
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8:10a, 9/12/24
AG

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AgLiving06
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8:43a, 9/12/24
I found that adding lots of z2 helps build endurance and base, but you have to incorporate in some threshold+ workouts or you lose that kick at the end.

Quarter mile repeats, half mile repeats, even mile repeats, will help with the top end speed that pulls your speed up.
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