AJ02 said:

---

Not sure if that's directed at OP or me.

But I regularly get my vitamin D levels checked (every 6 months) because it got as low as 12 about 2 years ago. I now take 5000 IU daily and I've had consistently good levels.

---

OP

Having your day set up so you are tired at night helps, sitting in front of a computer all day does not. When work is over ditch the screen and move.

There are some OTC meds that work for staying asleep, Jocko has a sleep supplement out that helps keep you asleep or so it seems. I just wanted to try it to experiment and not waking up as much. HTP5, Kava, Ashwagandha help some people relax.

Honestly as Hoose said getting off alcohol helps a ton for sleep. Not only do you get much better sleep but you don't get night sweats or anything like that. I have a friend that keeps having issues with alcohol so I am going sober for 6 months with them since they said I have no idea how difficult as them. I was nowhere close to the drinker they were but figured it couldn't hurt. I remember how good I felt during Ironman training when I did drink for months so why not.

Can't comment on THC since I get random drug test for work. Ain't worth the risk to me.

Sex helps, at least for guys. Plus its umm well...fun

Reading also calms me, read a pages and I am out within a few minutes if that once my head hits the pillow.

Furlock Bones said:

---

I have always struggled with poor sleep basically ever since I hit middle school. I have a 4 and 2 year old now which adds even more to the stuggle.

I have tried melatonin with mixed results. But, I'm always hesitant to use it for too long.

I have a healthy fear of things like ambien for several reasons.

working out regularly helps a bit. but, it's definitely not a cure for me.

i can really tell now that my lack of sleep time but more importantly lack of quality sleep is really starting to bite me.

open to suggestions. i've thought about a sleep study but what good will that do if its very likely i will not fall asleep during the night of the study?

---

in my experience with this, a lot of my friends that have this problem, snore and had sleep apnea. I would recommend a "sleep study".

While we are talking about sleep anyone ever used Hostage Tape? It makes sense why it works but it could also just be another fad

I've been interested in hostage tape, too. Especially after reading Breath by James Nestor.

I got a Garmin Fenix watch that tracks your sleep. It has been particularly insightful.

It has a graph and tells me when I was in light sleep, deep sleep, REM sleep or awake. It gives me a sleep score, which I've found to be particularly accurate. The score is from 1 - 100 with 100 being the best.

I did a dry month in February and after about a week, my sleep scores went up about 30 points and consistently held in the high 80s, 90s. It also improved with exercise and when I'm eating healthy. (No Duh.)

But the #1 thing that improved my score was cutting alcohol out completely. Now I'm having drinks again. When I have more than about 2 drinks, my sleep score goes down to 50. Even one drink lowers it.

Edit: I also take melatonin. It's not supposed to be habit forming. I also have dabbled with taking a half Delta 8 THC gummy. I don't like weed at all, but my routine when I had my sleep scores in the 90s was ZERO alcohol all day, 5 or 10 mg melatonin at 9 pm. 1/2 THC Delta 8 gummy at 9 pm.

"I usually take 2 aspirin and 2 benedryl before going to bed"

Dude be careful with daily Benadryl use, it's been linked to dementia.

Hoosegow said:

---

I concur with everyone. My sleep health routine is as follows (if I want decent rest):

I hate to say this, but no alchol - period. I have issues with booze. When I drink, I tend to go on 10 year benders...

---

my problem is getting to sleep, not staying asleep. sometimes I'll lay in bed and get chills and cold sweats and my mid will run repetitively over the same thing -- a song, or something I need to remember to do the following day and the order I need to get them done in. ..the same thing, for hours. Sometimes I wonder if I have a mild form of OCD that is triggered when Im stressed or anxious.

Ive tied taking a hot shower before bed, no caffeine after noon, L-Theinene, GABA, and melatonin -- sometimes this works really well, sometimes not at all and when I know its coming I typically try not to drink at all.

Last night, I slept from 430am to 6am. On some nights like this (about once or twice a month), i sometimes get in bed at 915 and dont fall asleep at all until its time to get up. At about 4 or 5 i start feeling sorry for myself because I know how exhausted Im going to be with the day after I get out of bed.

BadMoonRisin said:

---

my problem is getting to sleep, not staying asleep. sometimes I'll lay in bed and get chills and cold sweats and my mid will run repetitively over the same thing -- a song, or something I need to remember to do the following day and the order I need to get them done in. ..the same thing, for hours.

Last night, I slept from 430am to 6am. On some nights like this (about once or twice a month), i sometimes get in bed at 915 and dont fall asleep at all until its time to get up. At about 4 or 5 i start feeling sorry for myself because I know how exhausted Im going to be with the day after I get out of bed.

---

My former law partner's wife finally had enough of him stressing at night over work stuff etc. Every night, she'd put a pen and notepad on his nightstand. She'd tell him anything that runs through his mind at night - write it down and tell yourself you'll deal with it in the morning.

Worked for hm with the anxiety and stress.

Hmm. Ill try that out. It doesnt seem to follow any rhyme or reason, and I can usually tell at 10 or 11pm, after laying in bed for an hour or two, if its going to be one of those nights or not.

"They" say on the internets that if you dont fall alseep within 20 minutes to go read a book or somewhere outside of your bedroom until you feel tired and then go get in bed. The reading probably stops the repetitive thoughts. I will try that out.

Also doesnt help that its a gazillin degrees outside and my form of exercise was outdoor jogging/running, so most times i Just skip after getting back from taking the kids around.

Hoosegow said:

---

I concur with everyone. My sleep health routine is as follows (if I want decent rest):

• No caffeine after 12.
• Eat dinner before 7 (later and my acid reflux tends to kick in)
• I hate to say this, but no alchol - period. I have issues with booze. When I drink, I tend to go on 10 year benders... I stop, anxiety floods in, insomnia, etc. I took a break starting about 5 weeks ago. After the first week of tremors, stupid high blood pressure, etc, I finally was able to get it to stop. I have been sleeping like a champ for the first time in years. I doubt this is an issue for you, but it made a huge difference for my sleep quality.
• I usually take 2 aspirin and 2 benedryl before going to bed
• Recently, very recently, I may or may not have been using indica about an hour before bed. This by far is the best sleep aid I have ever had. It helps with the pain. I fall asleep quickly and usually don't wake up and if I do, I pee and immediately go back to sleep (versus tossing and turning until my alarm went off)
• I can't tell you if exercise helps or not. I have been exercising for over 20 years so I can't tell you if it makes a difference.
• More sex - seriously - it takes the edge off.

---

Congrats on quitting. I took all of February off - longest period without alcohol since I was 15. Wish I stayed quit now.

Morning GeorgiAg swears I'm done with it, but afternoon GeorgiAg just wants an afterwork cocktail or two. Then that guy may or may not want a few more. Wash, rinse, repeat.

After 9 pm, I can fall asleep easily. I just can't stay asleep some nights.

BadMoonRisin said:

---

my problem is getting to sleep, not staying asleep. sometimes I'll lay in bed and get chills and cold sweats and my mid will run repetitively over the same thing -- a song, or something I need to remember to do the following day and the order I need to get them done in. ..the same thing, for hours. Sometimes I wonder if I have a mild form of OCD that is triggered when Im stressed or anxious.

Ive tied taking a hot shower before bed, no caffeine after noon, L-Theinene, GABA, and melatonin -- sometimes this works really well, sometimes not at all and when I know its coming I typically try not to drink at all.

Last night, I slept from 430am to 6am. On some nights like this (about once or twice a month), i sometimes get in bed at 915 and dont fall asleep at all until its time to get up. At about 4 or 5 i start feeling sorry for myself because I know how exhausted Im going to be with the day after I get out of bed.

---

I'm the same way. I just can't shut my mind off. And after about 2 hours of laying there, my anxiety spikes because I know I've been laying there so long and now I'm only going to get 5 hours of sleep if I fall asleep RIGHT NOW. And then the anxiety makes it even harder to fall asleep, so it's just a downward spiral.

Doctor is checking me for ADHD. Not sure how/if having a diagnosis will help with my sleep issues, but sleep has always been a problem for me. I can remember as a kid laying in bed and crying frustrated tears because I couldn't fall asleep.

THC is pretty awful advice for improving/increasing REM sleep. The video linked below explains why. Anecdotally this has always been my experience with it as well. Very similarly to alcohol, it makes me sleepier which helps me fall asleep, but I wind up sleeping way longer than I would want to and still wake up feeling like **** because I didn't get enough REM sleep.


I'm hesitant to suggest supplements/drugs before a life style change, but if you've taken all the other suggested steps, this stuff supposedly works pretty well. It gets really good reviews, and while I haven't used it personally, I bought some for my dad who has trouble sleeping since neither him nor I were a fan of him using the ambien that he's had prescribed for years at it worked incredibly for him. It's linked below. It's pretty pricey if used regularly and sells out quick, and I would imagine it's possible to create some kind of dependency on it.
https://gorillamind.com/products/gorilla-dream
It's sold on Amazon as well.

K Bo said:

---

I don't have kids so I don't know how to navigate that but the easiest (and cheapest) things I did to improve my sleep were: quit drinking, no caffeine after like 2pm, I don't typically eat after 7pm, and no screens within an hour of wanting to fall asleep. I have a pretty solid sleep routine now so my body knows when it's time to start shutting down. If I am having difficulty calming my nerves, relaxing, whatever I will do a sleep meditation or breathing exercise.

Dr Matt Walker has appeared on quite a few podcasts (Huberman, Peter Attia, etc) and has his own with a wealth of information on improving sleep. Check those out.

https://www.masterclass.com/articles/matthew-walker-on-improving-sleep-quality

---

I've listened to a lot of Matthew walker. I think Joe Rogan did the best and most concise interview with him.

Baseline of things he recommends (repeating a couple things you already said):
Hot shower before bed
Keep your house cold
No caffeine 7 hours before bed time
No screens for 1 hour before bed time
Turn off the blue light on all of your electronics
The silliest sounding thing but perhaps the most important thing I've found is to wear socks. I noticed a significantly better sleep when I started wearing socks (my sleep literally got better over night). He also recommends mittens/gloves (again, silly, but the science makes sense).
Quit drinking.
Don't take nyquil/zzquil/etc; benadryl if absolutely necesssry
Routine is incredibly important. Trying to get to sleep at 9 pm on Sunday when you stayed up until 3 am over the weekend is a recipe for disaster.

What is with the socks? My feet get so dang hot that I am not sure I could do it but for a few months a year

Quote:

---

You know when Im down to just my socks its time for business that's why they call them business socks!

---

BadMoonRisin said:

---

Quote:

---

You know when Im down to just my socks its time for business that's why they call them business socks!

---

---

it's business, it's business time.

Hot shower before bed and socks are a big no no for me. I am a hot sleeper and it takes me longer to get to sleep after a hot shower.

I will say reading the bible right before bed helps me relax and clear my mind, fits in with the routine thing as well.

Ragoo said:

---

What is with the socks? My feet get so dang hot that I am not sure I could do it but for a few months a year

---

It has been a while since I listened but the overall premise was that you have 5 "ends" to your body at which the majority of the heat from your body escapes. Those 5 points are your head, your hands and your feet.

The thought is to have a cold environment outside of where you are sleeping but keep the "warmth" from escaping by covering 4/5 of the heat exits. I don't advise you put a blanket over your head to sleep but, ya know, you do you.

Again, if I was struggling to sleep, I would try anything and everything I could to fix it and these are small things to try that could make a difference. I know I've gone through periods of poor sleep but I don't know the last time I've really had issues, even with increased stress from job and family.

P.U.T.U said:

---

Hot shower before bed and socks are a big no no for me. I am a hot sleeper and it takes me longer to get to sleep after a hot shower.

I will say reading the bible right before bed helps me relax and clear my mind, fits in with the routine thing as well.

---

The point isn't to go to bed hot after you take a hot shower. The point is to take a hot shower, get cold because of exterior conditions and then go to bed.

For example:
Try turning down your AC lower than you usually would at night. So if you are at 68, try 65. Then, jump in a really hot shower for 10 minutes. Step out of shower. Don't put on any clothes until you start feeling cold. Then put on whatever you usually wear to sleep and go directly to bed (as usual).

For me, I had to drop caffeine all together.

I imagine at this point in the thread, there aren't any additional things that would help, but I did listen to a Podcast called "Plain English" with Derek Thompson that had a guest on that talks about the difference between sleep deprivation and insomnia, suggesting some strategies that might help.


One of the things I learned was that Martin Luther once said, "Almost every night when I wake up the devil is there and wants to dispute with me...., I instantly chase him away with a fart.".

There was also a part on how normal biphasic sleep was throughout most history. A first sleep, followed by a length of time when people were awake and accomplished tasks, and a second sleeping time.

I tried all the homeopathic BS and finally said F it and got on ambien. My doctor happily prescribed it because he said there's nothing bette then getting rest.

Lay down, pop a pill, sleep. Problems gone.

Teslag said:

---

I tried all the homeopathic BS and finally said F it and got on ambien. My doctor happily prescribed it because he said there's nothing bette then getting rest.

Lay down, pop a pill, sleep. Problems gone.

---

Right there with you friend.

Need the name of that doctor. All of them I've seen refuse to prescribe it. I don't even drink alcohol, I refuse all pain meds, and I've never taken more than prescribed dosage of Ambien. But all of them treat me like I'm just looking for pills.

Dr. Spaceman