So I have had some injuries that I attribute to my form. I thought all body types had different variances, and I was ok. I saw this pic and was shocked. One guy 6'+ the other 5'6" and identical form.



Has anyone drastically changed their form? Did muscle memory take over when tired? Any advice?

you are looking at two elite runners who are running sub 5 min miles.

you can definitely change your form, however, a lot of people end up injured trying to change their form.

if you were overstriding or doing something else detrimental, that's a different story.

True.

But they are elite in part to their form. Does that make sense?

i'd say they are elite b/c they choose good parents.

i get where you are going with that, but they'd still be elite even with crappy form. Fixing your upper body form is fine, but if you start screwing around with changing your gait, you might end up injured.

Again, remember, they are running sub 5 min miles. your gait/form changes naturally depending on speed. Go outside and film yourself running a 10 min mile an 8 min mile and a 6 min mile and at a sprint. You will look very differently in all of them.

Now if you look like the figure on the left:



then you might need to tweak some things. Remember, heel striking isn't necessarily bad. Over-striding is.

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Remember, heel striking is necessarily bad.

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Did you leave out the not?

Also, I have toe issues that I only feel on slow runs. Is it because on a tempo or race I'm striding differently?

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Remember, heel striking is necessarily bad.

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Did you leave out the not?

Also, I have toe issues that I only feel on slow runs. Is it because on a tempo or race I'm striding differently?

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yes, good catch.

that could be possible. tough to really know based on an internet thread. Its possible its form. Maybe its a difference in stride. Maybe its something completely different.

Thanks...i'm a wits end. The podiatrist said based on my shoe wear, I'm twisting my toes on strike. I don't know. She added inserts to my orthotics which made it worse. I think they guy who put them in messed them up. I had them take them out. Too soon to my 26.2 to mess around too much.

at what point does it start bothering you on a slow run?

It used to be right at 4. After my 20 miler and the changes to my orthotics, it went to 2. Even with the orthotics out on my last run, it was right at 2.

I used to be able to know when 4 miles came without looking at my watch.

What's a good cadence? My 20 miles was at 183 and my tempo last night was 172. Average is 175.

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Now if you look like the figure on the left:



then you might need to tweak some things. Remember, heel striking isn't necessarily bad. Over-striding is.

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Yup. Definitely need to change some things. Thx for the pic.

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What's a good cadence? My 20 miles was at 183 and my tempo last night was 172. Average is 175.

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i've never once measured my cadence.

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It used to be right at 4. After my 20 miler and the changes to my orthotics, it went to 2. Even with the orthotics out on my last run, it was right at 2.

I used to be able to know when 4 miles came without looking at my watch.

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interesting. well, that ruled out my WAG.

Wag?

wild ass guess

What was it?

had to do with your slow runs taking longer.

Well that's true.

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What's a good cadence? My 20 miles was at 183 and my tempo last night was 172. Average is 175.

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i've never once measured my cadence.

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I got a foot pod for Christmas to simply track estimated miles on the treadmill. Started looking at cadence for the first time. Granted I'm doing lots of slow / low HR running right now, my cadence was in the 150s. Most of the better runners I know have a pretty quick turn over so I started looking into recommended ranges. Over the past six weeks I've been bumping it into the 170s just to see what differences I notice. I think it's actually helping with my over-striding issues.

Have you changed up your form at all? Did it only start in this most recent training cycle?

What do you mean by toes twisting when you strike? Just your toes? Or is your foot is twisting too much?

A couple things that I have seen help a lot of people right off the bat:

1) Move your hands up to make everything more compact. Your cadence is matching your elbow/arm swing. When hands are low and arms are open this slows cadence down. This is shown in OO's graph about compact arm carriage.

2) Bring your chin down and focus your eyes about 15-30 feet on the ground in front of you. This will help to bring your body into a forward lean instead of being open and in the "backseat."

That picture is not a fair assessment at all comsidering they arent even in the same phase of gait.

true, but the reason i grabbed it was for the picture on the left to show over-striding.

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Have you changed up your form at all? Did it only start in this most recent training cycle?

What do you mean by toes twisting when you strike? Just your toes? Or is your foot is twisting too much?

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My toes have always hurt while running. I think now that I am doing 40-50 per week they're hurting more.

She looked at wear my toes hurt and the sole of my shoe and said that I twist my foot which twists my toes. She tried to change my orthotics so my toes were protected more. I think they put too much additional padding on and made it worse.

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A couple things that I have seen help a lot of people right off the bat:

1) Move your hands up to make everything more compact. Your cadence is matching your elbow/arm swing. When hands are low and arms are open this slows cadence down. This is shown in OO's graph about compact arm carriage.

2) Bring your chin down and focus your eyes about 15-30 feet not the ground in front of you. This will help to bring your body into a forward lean instead of being open and in the "backseat."

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this won't help with your foot issue, but very good advice.

If anyone has any interest in evaluating, here's my at the Dallas 1/2 where I ran it in 1:38.

http://www.marathonfoto.com/Proofs?PIN=C2H033&LastName=SKELTON

And the ******bag in me wanted to see if I beat the guys I finished with.

I did.

I'm assuming you are the dude in the hat, not the person in the blue shirt.

tough to tell since most of those are head-on, but it looks like you are over striding in a couple of those pics. Heel is way out in front. Could just be the moment they caught you, as one instance is at the finish line.

PS. - you look like you are ready to karate chop something.

read jdaerr's points, that might help with the upper body position.

blue shirt guy is definitely swinging his arm across his body.

Maroon custom shirt that you can't see the awesome logo and the Mickey Mouse hat.

The kid in the blue shirt is the son of the guy in the grey.

And yes, i think I over stride when "sprinting."

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look like you are ready to karate chop something.

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Less wind resistance.

Just to be clear, are you saying that all your toes are hurting or just particular ones? Both feet or one foot?

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Just to be clear, are you saying that all your toes are hurting or just particular ones? Both feet or one foot?

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It's the middle toe and the "pointer" toe, in-between the middle and big toe. It happens in both feet, but primarily worse in my left foot.

Is 2nd toe longer than the Big toe?

It's shorter, but not by much.

so, after reading this thread I started looking into running technique. typically, as a fat guy with skinny legs, if I run for a week or so, I start getting a lot of knee pain. I attributed it to the afore characteristics, but this thread got me thinking it was moreso due to heel striking. last night, I ran a few miles with an adjusted cadence and focused on landing on the middle of my feet. zero knee pain. however, my calves are sore a f***.