Guys, I have been doing 5x5 workouts now since about November. I've seen some decent progress in strength, and my weight has increased about 7 lbs, which pleases me. I'm now 6'1 and 187.

This is what I'm doing now:

Deadlift - 320
Squat - 205 (I know, not terribly impressive, but good for me)
Shoulder press - 130
Bench Press - 230
BB Row - 165

I usually add calf exercises as well as pull ups and abs to my M, W, F workouts.

I'm getting to a point now where I'm wondering at what point should I be wearing a weight lifting belt? I'm primarily concerned with the deadlift as that is getting increasingly difficult to maintain form, but I'm also wondering if my squat would benefit (or at least not be hurt) by the usage of a belt.

What say you? What do I gain by using a belt (I've never used one before)? When should a person start to use a belt?

Your help is much appreciated.

7lbs on that program since November? Eat more.

knife party,

Thanks for your comments. Tacking on weight is not easy for me as I don't eat carbs. I'm on a high protein diet and limit my total carb intake to no more than 30 grams per day. I'm a Type 1 Diabetic and so use this way of eating to help me control blood sugar. The fact that I put on any weight at all is remarkable, at least to me.

Now, as far as the belt is concerned....

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Now, as far as the belt is concerned....

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DBSwooper or Hoosegow should be along soon to help out. They are two of our big lifting guys on here, and usually give really good advice regarding such.

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Now, as far as the belt is concerned....

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DBSwooper or Hoosegow should be along soon to help out. They are two of our big lifting guys on here, and usually give really good advice regarding such.

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Thanks!

Your form isn't a function of wearing a belt, your form is a function of having the right base of supporting muscles. A good belt (like from EliteFTS or other powerlifting suppliers), not the wide back skinny front junk from Academy, will give you the ability to push against the belt and use it to help stabilize your
core. If your core is weak to begin with it won't do any good, in fact it can do harm in being a crutch to move up in weight for a big movement (like squats or DL) before the rest of your muscularity is ready.
That's a quick way to get hurt.

It's odd that your DL and Squat are so far separated in numbers. To me that is a red flag that there is
something missing in your training. If your deadlift form is breaking down it is probably starting at the shoulders, being pulled forward from the weight. With a squat that is significantly weaker than your DL I would guess your spinal erectors/glutes/hams are seriously lagging.

When you try to go up in weight on your squats are you folding forward, finding your "balance is off" or just getting stuck in the hole at the bottom?

Both of those signs would point to some upper back weakness as well as the erectors/glutes/hams, since that chain has serious play in both squats and DL.

DB, not exactly sure what the deal is with my squat. I have posted many times regarding my frustration with squats. I watched a Rippetoe squat video about two weeks ago and the tweaks he suggested appear to have made a difference. I've moved up in squat by about twenty pounds since I watched that video. I believe my problem was having my chest too upright before. Now I keep my head down and push up out of the hole with my hips and that seems to have made a difference. As far as a weak back, not sure, but I can stay in close to perfect form on my dead lifts at 310 lbs.

I'm really not a fan of Rippetoe. Start with this video and continue on with the followup videos. If you can post video of your squat and your DL I'm sure Hoose would have some solid advice as well.

Dbswooper,

I do Sl 5*5 for the strength and overall health gains. What is your thoughts on oly squats and powerlifting squats? Is there a better or worse? Should I mix it up?

I get frustrated because there seems to be so many different methods of squatting out there. So many experts out there offering advice that conflicts with the advice from other experts. One is left confused.

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Dbswooper,

I do Sl 5*5 for the strength and overall health gains. What is your thoughts on oly squats and powerlifting squats? Is there a better or worse? Should I mix it up?

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Oly squats are legit, take nothing away from that. The setups are different and my personally belief is that the low bar, wider stance powerlifting squat recruits more from the glute/ham chain than the oly style squat. Prove me wrong on that, I'd love to learn something neat if I'm off base!

Powerlifting squats, even when done RAW, have been influenced by geared lifting (wearing a squat suit). Squat suits lend the support to a wider stance than a normal straight squat, so the carry over into the RAW squatting has happened. Some of that has to do with harnessing a more technical approach to the squat even when RAW and some of that has to do with RAW lifters being taught by geared lifters and not recognizing the need for a slightly different setup (you see this more with bench press than squat).

Really though, at the end of the day if you're not planning on getting on the platform for a competition, do the style of squat that suits your needs and body best. If you get the best results from a powerlifting style squat, do that. If you get the best results from an Oly style squat, do that. If you want to do upside down squats on a balance ball wearing $200 worth of crossfit branded clothing, just quit now. ;P

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I get frustrated because there seems to be so many different methods of squatting out there. So many experts out there offering advice that conflicts with the advice from other experts. One is left confused.

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The EliteFTS videos are legit, so are the videos that Louie Simmons has put up over the years on building the squat. He (of course since he had a patent on a version) recommends reverse hypers to help build the ham chain and I'm a big fan of that movement, if you have one available to you.

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I get frustrated because there seems to be so many different methods of squatting out there. So many experts out there offering advice that conflicts with the advice from other experts. One is left confused.

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I think different people have different goals with the lifts in their program and that is one of the problems. Mark's goal is to take an untrained individual, teach them the 5 main powerlifts, and get them proficient and strong in them as quickly as possible. To that end , he uses the low bar back squat. One reason why is because this movement recruits more muscle mass than some of the other squat movements. And, he teaches it so that it will recruit glutes.

Regarding your progress, I see that you mentioned you are type 1 diabetic. I think the progress you've made with that limitation is great. Have you made any modifications to the 5x5 program in terms of it's linear progression schedule? You probably know this, but you will stall sooner on a 5x5 LP than a 5x3. I think your nutrition is the tricky part that will influence when you eventually stall. Since you are familiar with starting strength, I'd suggest checking out Jordan Feigenbaum on the nutrition forum. He's a guy that has personally trained a lot of people, has first hand knowledge of nutrition research, and also has a medical degree. I'm sure he's worked with a number of type 1's doing an LP program.

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Knife Party,

Thanks for your comments. If I'm honest with myself, I'm a 42 year old guy who lifts because it helps me control my diabetes and I don't want to be embarrassed when I'm down at the pool. Of course I want to get stronger. I also want to be lifting correctly. That written, I'm not consuming any supplements. I'm not drinking a gallon of milk per day like I've seen some sites recommend. I'm not consuming 6,000 calories per day. I'm just a guy who wants to see some progression all while working a full-time job and raising three little girls with my wife. I have to remind myself not to beat myself up so much because I'm not squatting what I think I should. Sometimes I get really frustrated with it all. I've been making some progress following Rippetoe, so I think I'll stick with that. I watched some of the videos that DB suggested, and they were informative, and no doubt they work, but just looking at those guys in the video, something tells me their objectives are little different than mine. They're huge!

I have made some adjustments to the routine. I'm now doing 3x5 simply because the routine was getting too long doing 5x5. My barbell row is at the outer edges of what I'm capable of; hence, I'll be dropping that down to 3x3. I'm actually on my way back up as the ap recommended I deload when I was unable to row 3x5 at 170. Once I get back up to 170, I'll switch to 3x3. My deadlift is now getting really difficult as well. I'll probably be dropping that down as well to 1x3 here shortly.

I will check out Jordan's nutrition forum. I'm always on the lookout for ways to increase my calories without spiking my blood sugar. Thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll mix it up some so I'm working more muscles.

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I watched some of the videos that DB suggested, and they were informative, and no doubt they work, but just looking at those guys in the video, something tells me their objectives are little different than mine. They're huge!

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They also enjoy a better life through chemistry, but the techniques are the same. Regardless you won't out train a crappy diet, even with their PED use.

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They also enjoy a better life through chemistry, but the techniques are the same. Regardless you won't out train a crappy diet, even with their PED use.

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DB, this is where I'm at, I believe. My progress is severely limited by the reduced carbs that I eat. If I was to try and get 4,000-5,000 calories per day by eating nothing but fat and protein, I just don't think I could do it. Protein is very filling. I'm lucky to get 2,000 calories and so try and eat some of the fattiest food I can find for the calories. In fact, for a while there, I was drinking a carton of heavy whipping cream per week. I'm okay with not getting huge. My goal has always been to be about 190 lbs., which I think is respectable given my height. I snack on nuts, eat a lot of all natural peanut butter, etc. I think it has helped as I've tacked on about 8-9 lbs over the last few months (baseline was really closer to 178 than 180).

As far as my diet goes, it works perfectly for me. My blood is as clean as that of a healthy non-diabetic. I don't have any heart issues, cholesterol issues, kidney issues, or liver issues. Triglycerides are all within normal range, etc. It may not work for everyone, but for me it is the magic ingredient in my A1Cs being in the low 5 range (routine test given to diabetics to measure average blood sugar for previous thee months).

There is no doubt that my diet severely limits what all I can accomplish. I'm okay with that, but would feel better about things if I could get my squat up to at least 225 - 250.

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They also enjoy a better life through chemistry, but the techniques are the same. Regardless you won't out train a crappy diet, even with their PED use.

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DB, this is where I'm at, I believe. My progress is severely limited by the reduced carbs that I eat. If I was to try and get 4,000-5,000 calories per day by eating nothing but fat and protein, I just don't think I could do it. Protein is very filling. I'm lucky to get 2,000 calories and so try and eat some of the fattiest food I can find for the calories. In fact, for a while there, I was drinking a carton of heavy whipping cream per week. I'm okay with not getting huge. My goal has always been to be about 190 lbs., which I think is respectable given my height. I snack on nuts, eat a lot of all natural peanut butter, etc. I think it has helped as I've tacked on about 8-9 lbs over the last few months (baseline was really closer to 178 than 180).

As far as my diet goes, it works perfectly for me. My blood is as clean as that of a healthy non-diabetic. I don't have any heart issues, cholesterol issues, kidney issues, or liver issues. Triglycerides are all within normal range, etc. It may not work for everyone, but for me it is the magic ingredient in my A1Cs being in the low 5 range (routine test given to diabetics to measure average blood sugar for previous thee months).

There is no doubt that my diet severely limits what all I can accomplish. I'm okay with that, but would feel better about things if I could get my squat up to at least 225 - 250.

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You're in a unique position in your diet to battle what you need for healthy living and what you would need to fuel your body to reach your goals. Now that I'm finally getting past the bicep I blew out at work last year and training again, I'm slowly bringing my diet back into swing as I'm ratcheting up my training. The heavy/hard days I can tell when I don't get enough calories because my body just won't recover very well.

Protein is hard to get, getting ready for meets I ate on schedule, basically force feeding myself, to get the right calories when I needed them. Luckily a good protein shake made with water isn't as heavy, so you might think about trying that. I'm not sure how that would push your blood sugar for your condition, though.

DB,

I actually started drinking a protein shake more consistently here in the last few weeks. I've always had protein around, but my last 3 lb. container took me about three years to finish. I'm now trying to do it more consistently after each workout. I've been drinking the Isopure Zero Carb shakes. They taste good and have minimal effect on my blood sugars.

DB, as usual is spot on with his belt recommendation. As for the squat, if you want to learn how to squat and improve your squat, box squat. Make sure you go deep enough to get parallel. Learn to sit back and throw your knees out. Box squats will expose all your weaknesses and form flaws.

Hoose, that is one thing with which I do not struggle. I go below parallel on ever squat. In fact, I think if I could keep it to just parallel, I might not struggle as much "coming out of the hole." As far as boxes, where might one buy a box, and which would you recommend? I'm more than willing to give it a try.

RWC,

Have you considered an investment in some proper coaching on the lifts?

I recently spent the money (and it wasn't cheap) for some one on one coaching. I found it quite helpful in getting the proper feel of correct lumbar extension for the low bar squat and deadlift. Following Rippetoe's advice, or at least my interpretation of it, led me to allow my chest to "cave in" a bit and I was struggling with lower back out of the bottom.

I'm currently in the novice stage following SS as outlined by Rippetoe. Currently at: 220 squat, 275 DL, 115 OHP, 175 BP, 145 PC (37 yo; 210#).

Build a box with 2X4 and plywood. You can make it any dimension you want - 16X18X20-.

Or you can buy one for $200

EliteFTS

Stinky

No, but I would definitely be open to paying for it. Seems very strange to me that there would be that big of a disaparity between my squat and deadlift. I have to be doing something wrong. Who'd you go to for the coaching?

Randy Winfrey through Andy Baker's gym in Kingwood (Kingwood Strength & Conditioning). Both are SS certified coaches. I found them through the SS websites.

Since you'll be curious, it was $295 for a 2-2.5 hour session. We ended up going through all 5 lifts. Depending on how much coaching you need they will skip the power clean.

My opinion is that it was pricey for what the level of coaching I really needed...given that I was not far off from good form on all of my lifts, but I was glad I did it. We had good discussions about programming and moving beyond the novice stage to the point where you decide if you want to get stronger, how to manage given busy lives, continuing to add in running and other mobility or sprinting type work.

Thanks, that is pricey.

I think they do Saturday seminars as well. Don't recall the price on that, but probably more cost effective. My rational was that if I want to work up to putting 300+ lbs on my back and squatting or trying to deadlift nearly 400 lbs I don't want to hurt myself in the process.

Im in a similar situation. I did 5x365 dl but struggle with 205 on squats.

Per some of the previous videos and suggestions, last night on my squat workout, I used a stool we have in the house to do box squats. I tried to focus on technique like what was advised in the video DB suggested. I had to remove weight in order to do it, but I'm feeling things now this morning that I've never felt before squatting, which is what I've been told I should feel, but never did before. It was a really good recommendation to use the box for squats. I plan on sticking with it.

So the guy they use in this EFTS video just has "a little experience" in his squats, but is pushing 3 plates with ease??? Thanks for making me feel puny.

Watching these videos does make me want to build a box and/or get some coaching. It is interesting that they are in direct contrast with Rippetoe on head positioning. Though it sounds like the big lifters here may agree with the head up.

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So the guy they use in this EFTS video just has "a little experience" in his squats, but is pushing 3 plates with ease??? Thanks for making me feel puny.

Watching these videos does make me want to build a box and/or get some coaching. It is interesting that they are in direct contrast with Rippetoe on head positioning. Though it sounds like the big lifters here may agree with the head up.

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Head down simply increases force production. Always need to think of your training goals with respect to lift choice and lift style. There's more than one correct way to squat. Imo Rippetoe bad or Rippetoe good is a false dichotomy.

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So the guy they use in this EFTS video just has "a little experience" in his squats, but is pushing 3 plates with ease??? Thanks for making me feel puny.

Watching these videos does make me want to build a box and/or get some coaching. It is interesting that they are in direct contrast with Rippetoe on head positioning. Though it sounds like the big lifters here may agree with the head up.

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Head down simply increases force production. Always need to think of your training goals with respect to lift choice and lift style. There's more than one correct way to squat. Imo Rippetoe bad or Rippetoe good is a false dichotomy.

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With the neck injuries I sustained between a couple of bad car collisions and thousands of skydives I like to think of my head position as "neck neutral." I'm not looking down or up, I've focused on keeping my neck in a neutral position, which prevents injury and pain in my case. With that said I'm not a Rippetoe fan...just had to toss that in there because reasons. :P

Good on you rightwing. The guys at Westside know what they are doing and I'm proof that the box squat works. It is all I do between preparing for meets.

As for head position, quite frankly we never key on it. It isn't anything I've thought about or worked on in years. I sure would trust Tate over Ripp on coaching the squat. I'm not bagging on Ripp, but Tate is way more qualified to teach the squat.

DB or Hoose, I'd like to send you guys a video of my squat and have you critique it. I've been utilizing the box now for a month or two, but I still tend to hit a wall around 165 or 170. I have to be doing something wrong, but I'm just not sure what it is. Is it normal for a person to be able to bench 240 3x5 and only squat (for reps) 165? I can deadlift 315 for reps, but cannot seem to get past 165 on my squat.

How is the best way to get the video to you? E-mail is preferred. Wouldn't want my scrawny ass on youtube for the world to see how weak my legs are.

I know we've talked about this some before, but I seem to remember you using the starting strength low bar back squat form. If you want to stick with that, you can post squat videos to their forums for form critiques if you haven't already. Imo, if you're having this much trouble with the squat even after trying to correct your form, and it sounds like you are, it's probably time for some in person coaching, but obviously not from some jackhole at a gold's.

I think this would be the right spot for a technique video on that forum:

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/forum155/

I sometimes wonder if it isn't more a weight issue. I'm 6'1 and weight hover around 183-187 lbs. Could my weakness really be attributed to me not getting enough calories? Surely there are other, similarly built guys, who can squat more than I can.

I do not know what my 1 rep max is. Perhaps I should try that at some point. It's probably in the very low 200s. I've been squatting 165 with a stool for 7-8 reps and I can get through 4 sets, but it is difficult. I keep thinking that it should be getting easier, but it always stays just as difficult as the time before.

A few other things I've observed. My butt is never sore from squatting, but interestingly enough, neither are my quads. I don't really feel any soreness at all the next day after squatting. I also now only squat 2x per week (Monday, Friday), because due to my previous struggles, I figured I just needed more rest.