quote:

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I guess I'm shorting correctly on the posts of the solenoid

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I still think it's possible to spin the starter and not engage the solenoid. All depends on what wires you jumped.



The top is the battery cable, the bottom is power from the solenoid to the starter motor, the small terminal with the S is the starter switch.

If you simply jump the two big ones, top to bottom, the starter spins but the solenoid is not engaged, thus no shifting of the starter cog into the flywheel, so no turning engine.

Jump the big one to "S" you supply 12 volts to the solenoid, it shifts the gear into contact with the flywheel, and the solenoid switches internally electrically and supplies big current from the top (battery) to the bottom (starter motor) and the starter spins and now since the gears are engaged, the flywheel and thus engine spin.

Or in this case



Jump Bat to M, starter spins, does not engage flywheel.

Jump Bat to S, Solenoid engages flywheel, power flows through solenoid from Bat to M, starter spins, engine spins (because solenoid engaged starter gear to flywheel)

Clear as mud?

Try this. Put tractor in Park/neutral. Have someone sit in seat with clutch depressed. Put multi-tester (or even test light) on "S". Turn key. If no 12 volts to "S", problem is upstream of starter.

Leave starter alone until you diagnose whether the key or the neutral safety switch(es) is(are) bad,

Wow, some really good stuff CanyonAg. Thanks. Man, do you have like several auto/tractor parts manuals there at your place? just wondering since it didn't take you long to find the perfect diagrams for my situation. I guess if you know what the heck you're doing (like you do and like I don't), you can find images of what you're talking about online pretty swiftly. Thanks for the great info. I'm going to be out there working on the tractor this weekend (probably Sunday or Monday, actually) and I'll have my phone out there with this thread up.

You've given me plenty to try/tinker with when I get back out to the tractor. I appreciate it very much. THANKS!

I have some other general tractor questions that I'd like to ask as well. Here's one: Where is the best place to purchase hydraulic fluid/oil that is used in these tractors? TSC maybe?

CanyonAg's google fu is strong.

old people have wisdom

Tractor Supply should be fine. What's important is oil that meets the standard given in the manual. Keep it clean in the jugs and in the tractor, keep your filters changed. If there's doubt about the oil currently in the tractor, change it if you are worried.

As for the rest:
Good decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from a lifetime of bad decisions.

What can I say? I've been around a while and seen a lot. And yes, for some reason I can often find what I need on The Google when others can't. Sort of a Google Idiot Savant or something.

Other than that, I had a g-g-g-g-(whatever) grandad who made and fixed wagons for the Continental Army in 1776. Maybe it's genetic.

I was always the kid taking crap apart to see how it worked.

Also when I was a kid, dad drank coffee every morning and wet/snowy day at a local mechanic's shop. Guess which snotty-nosed kid spent all his time looking over the mechanic's shoulder watching what he did, or looking at the mechanic's hemi-powered drag car in the back.

Later, when farming with my dad and brother, I was the one who fixed stuff. Dad and brother didn't care, as long as it ran. I wanted to know why it ran or why it broke.

Now I just annoy people on the Internet.

Far from annoying Canyon; far, far from it. Thanks a ton. Can't wait to try out some of your advice in the next few days.

agreed, i wish i had a farm or a shop with toys and junk to tinker with.

My dad has a Long tractor, pretty sure its a 460 IIRC (I'm in CO, he's in TX). His tractor doesn't start with the key. The key has to be one click to the right from vertical, then there's a level up on the dash that I think is turned CCW. Make sure both the gear selector and the hi/low selector are in neutral. I think I've started it before with both in gear, but just do this to make sure.

The PTO lever is on the "transmission tunnel", below you when you sit. I believe it has a button depress on the end of the lever. IIRC, the PTO is engaged when the lever is brought up to vertical, but it's hard to remember since I haven't driven his in a couple of years.

There's always the pull start method, we've pull started that thing numerous times with other tractors and half tons. Good luck, hope this helped.

oats05-

When all else fails, read the manual?

Oats, I believe I tried all that, but thanks. Sounds like the exact tractor I have though. I'll be tinkering more with it this week and trying Canyon's and others' advice on this thread. Working 12-14 hour days leaves no time for tinkering (the past week).

probably already suggested or tried, but make sure there isn't a kill switch that you have to pull out or push in

I believe the kill switch is a knob on the right side down about mid shin height. Might be red. It pulls out to kill it, so make sure its pushed in.

Thanks biscuit and oats.

CanyonAg

So Ag12, what's up with the Long? Running yet? Given up? Waiting till the weekend to try again? We're all invested in this thing and need to know! Kidding, of course, kinda.

Jarhead, work has been killing me this week. Yeah, probably not gonna get to work on it again until Easter afternoon. I'll be posting as soon as I'm back on it, though. Appreciate it.

Save yourself a lot of trouble. Try the kill switch first.

If it is like a John Deere (at least the old JDs, up to about 1985 or so) the "kill switch" you are talking about is simply the diesel cutoff.

So if that knob/switch is not pulled/pushed, the tractor won't start because it gets no fuel. But it will crank (engine spins with starter)

As far as I know, he has yet to even get a click out of the starter, much less rotation. As I've said from the start, his problem has nothing to do with the engine being a diesel.

At least not yet.


Random fun fact: JD had diesels back in the 2-cylinder days (pre-1963) Electric starters and batteries were not up to the task of starting them, so they used "pony motors". These were small gasoline engines grafted onto the diesel. You cranked the pony motor with the electric starter. If it was cold, you let the pony motor run a while, as it had a common cooling system, and it would warm up the diesel engine. Then you used the pony motor to start the diesel.

The only diesels I had lots of experience with were the 4020 series and newer, though I do have a lot of field time on a 730 propane fueled tractor.

The 4020s, the throttle was on the steering column on the right, sort of like a blinker stalk. As you push it up to idle, it hits a stop. To kill it, you pulled the knob out on the end of the throttle, and pushed it up a little more, which cut off the diesel. When the rare IH or Case guy tries to drive a 4020, he can't figure out how to start it (pull the throttle down until it is just off the stop) or stop it (pull knob, push up)

Of course, we kids also figured out that there was a stop at full throttle. And pulling the knob out and pushing down would get you an extra 100 rpm or so. But no, we never used that to speed up the tractor in road gear so we could get home for lunch 2 seconds quicker. That would put extra stress on an expensive engine and that would be wrong.

So we never did that kind of thing.

Canyon, you ever start an old Poppin Johnny with the flywheel starter you spun by hand? Now THOSE were machines! Limited utility outside row cropping, but we did hay with them when I was a kid. Safety issues on uneven ground, with the tricycle frontend, but they were indestructable.

The 730 was the only 2-cylinder Deere I ever drove in the field. It had an electric starter.

However, Dad collected antique tractors, including lots of hand-cranked 2-cylinders. So I learned how to start them. It was self-defense. It got embarrassing to struggle for 15 minutes to crank one of the old SOBs.

Then some 90-year-old guy would hobble over to the tractor. He'd lean his cane up against the tire, fiddle with a few levers and knobs, and gently position the flywheel just so. Then with a barely perceptible flick of the wrist, he'd spin the flywheel a quarter turn, and the darn thing would roar (well, pop) to life.

Maybe we should start an old tractor picture/story thread.

My grandpa started an antique tractor collection and my dad has continued it. We've got 6 John Deere poppin' Johnny's, 8N Ford, Ferguson 30, 60 Oliver, B Farmall, Allis Chalmers WD 40 and then a JD 3020 and 4250 that still handle the farm/ranch work.

I remember always trying to start the John Deere B and it would plain wear you out if you didn't know how the carb worked, made sure the gas was on and the throttle was in the right position.

We've still got one of those old pony motors that Canyon was talking about. Dad said you had to remember to always park the tractor next to it at the end of the day so you wouldn't have to move the heavy SOB.

quote:

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We've still got one of those old pony motors that Canyon was talking about. Dad said you had to remember to always park the tractor next to it at the end of the day so you wouldn't have to move the heavy SOB.

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Must be something else you have. The JD pony motors were permanent parts of the tractor.

Did he use some stationary engine to turn the big tractor's belt pulley to start?


And regarding hand starting: THE most important thing is figuring out when the mag is about to fire, and bringing the flywheel to just before that point before you crank.

And a B is a problem? Pfft. Try a D or G.

[This message has been edited by CanyonAg77 (edited 4/5/2012 3:05p).]

It's a motor that sits on a stand and was used to start an old JD diesel. If I remember correctly, dad said the motor was a pretty high RPM motor.

Our A and G are both electric start.

The best part, was just pull starting the tractors. If the B didn't start after one or two throws of the flywheel, just pull the damn thing.

quote:

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It's a motor that sits on a stand and was used to start an old JD diesel

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Interesting, don't believe I've heard of that. Although I can see how you could use a stationary engine like this



run a belt from its belt pulley to the tractor belt pulley, and spin the tractor engine.

Pony motors were fairly common on the old 2 cylinders as well as the early Caterpillar diesels.

Finding parts for the ol' poppin johnny pony motors can be a real b!+ch now.

do a youtube search for john deere pony motor to see a tractor being started with a pony motor. It is pretty neat.

[This message has been edited by EskimoJoe (edited 4/6/2012 8:49a).]

I didn't get near enough time to pittle with the tractor for to Easter celebrations this weekend, but I did for an hour or so. Still not getting anything at all out of the starter. Not even as much as a hum or click. It's either jammed or there is a major electrical disconnect (or maybe even a minor one or more). More work coming this week ...

Can anyone recommend a good tractor battery brand to me? No, I still haven't gotten it started (or even to crank), but that's mainly due to working a lot of hours the last couple of weeks. Hoping to get back on it this week.

A car battery is fine. It's not that big of a motor.

Neat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veOcZjuQoko

Talking about old pony motors on John Deeres, another interesting old way of starting a diesel was used in the old IH big motors, like the TD-18. They had spark plugs and could be started on gasoline and then switched over to diesel.

Thanks Canyon. Okay, not to change the subject of this thread, but what brand of battery do you guys recommend?

CATAG, thanks for the video, I don't believe I've ever seen one used. That's a heck of a restoration.

Regarding batteries, I've about given up guessing. Used to be that Interstate were the best, then that changed. I have a cheap battery I bought at an Auto Parts store once that is a "Hot Rod" brand. Some type of tie-in with the magazine, I guess. It was supposed to be a get-me-through-harvest battery for a grain truck.

Next harvest, after sitting for 6-7 months, it cranked the truck right up. And it did the next, and the next....So I kept leaving it, planning to replace it "next year".

I think it is about 10 years old at this point and still works every time.


I say just buy the most cold cranking amps battery you can stuff into your battery box. Make sure the warranty covers farm equipment. Some battery warranties exclude "commercial use", or at least they used to.

CanyonAg, thanks.

A fine Hale Center education gets you to the top on tractor maintenance. Plus farming most of your life. You da man, Canyon!