I have a Long diesel tractor that my grandfather has given to me. It has been sitting for probably 2 years without having been started or ran at all. I've messed with it some but no luck. I have connected jumper cables to the probably beyond-dead battery and tried to crank it, but absolutely nothing occurs when I try the start switch. I can't get it to even make a sound and can't hear anything happening at all with the starter.

I'm not at all a diesel mechanic and am wondering what I should do at this point. I've done some reading on diesel engines in the web and it sounds like these engines have glow-plugs rather than spark-plugs. (I have worked on gasoline auto engines in the past, but never diesels). Any assistance or ideas at all about what I should do to get the engine to respond to the start switch will be greatly appreciated. I realize the oil, diesel, and coolant probably need to be drained and replaced.

Got it in neutral with the clutch pedal pushed in?

year make and model would be helpful.

Yes. Had it in neutral with clutch pushed in when trying to start.

It's a 1985 (around there) Long Model 460.

Trickle charge the battery for 24 hours or replace. Takes alot of power to crank. And fresh fuel if you can.

At this point, the diesel doesn't matter. But if you can get it to crank (rotate) then fuel is the next step.

In fact, it's doing you a favor. BEFORE you get it to crank, find the drain valve at the bottom of the fuel tank and let out any water/sediment. If it had cranked, that gunk would now be further downstream. Sometimes fuel filters have drains as well.

I would swap out the fuel filters before cranking. Once that's done, bleed the filters. There will be some valve to let air out, or at minimum, a hand pump to pump diesel into the filters.


But as said, your immediate problem is cranking. Shift the gear shift in and out of park/neutral. The neutral/park safety switch could be defective/stuck, maybe you can break it loose. If it has a Park, use that instead of neutral.

You might be able to see the neutral switch on the side of the transmission case. Use an electric tester to see if it is working. Some folks will bypass those switches, but that is really dangerous.

I'd start checking things with a volt meter. Could be lots of things: battery, starter, bad switch, ground, etc. Figure out where you do and don't have voltage and you'll start to narrow down the problem area(s).

Charging the battery won't make a difference. You would at least hear something from the starter if you're jumping correctly.

And unless you've used booster cables a lot, you may not be. Simply sticking the cables on the appropriate post doesn't guarantee that current is flowing. It sometimes takes a lot of wiggling to get them to work.

We always used to hook to the "hot" battery with the positive on the battery, the negative on the frame. Then I had momentarily strike the other two cables together to see if I had a spark. If not, wiggle the hot ends. If I had a spark, then positive to dead battery, negative to frame.

We did this with the donor engine running. Usually, you can hear the engine idle drop as the load increases on the alternator. of you have a good connection.

And often, as soon as you try to start, the load will ruin your connection. You may see a spark at the cable at this point. Wiggle them all again until the engine lugs again.

And goose is correct. A simple multi-tester with voltage, resistance, etc. will help trace these problems.

Thanks for all the recommendations/pointers. I'm not really well-versed in using a voltmeter even though I do have one. What should I specifically check and what setting (voltage, ohms, etc.)? I've really only used my meter to keep from zapping myself when wiring in my house here and there.

You need to check to power to the starter. I bet there are online tutorials on how to test a starter with a multi meter. Probably there is a solenoid that isn't closing the starter power circuit. After 2 years, you probably also need to prime the fuel system with fuel, and might have to get the injectors cleaned.

[This message has been edited by MouthBQ98 (edited 3/24/2012 4:57p).]

Thanks BQ. Like I said, I'm kinda a diesel idiot. Don't know much about the engines as
I've only worked on gasoline ones. Is it possible the glow plugs need to be replaced? Also, what is the process of priming fuel line with diesel? Tutorial online for this too maybe?

You should only need to even use glow plugs when it is cold and the fuel isn't vaporizing from the injectors enough to detonate. This time of year, the diesel should be warm enough to vaporize without warming the combustion chambers.

If the starter is not rotating the engine, your problems have NOTHING to do with the diesel system. Don't start farting with glow plugs or anything else.

For that matter, does it even have glow plugs? Many much larger diesels (Deere) do not.

Work on the start circuit. If it rotates but does not start, then we can start talking fuel system.

If you can find the neutral safety switch, unplug the wires and test resistance across them. Likely the circuit will be open (infinite resistance) when in gear, almost no resistance (0.001 or something close) when in park.

Check voltage to the starter. There should be 12 volts at the cable connected to the solenoid (red on cable, black tester lead to frame.

quote:

---

If you can find the neutral safety switch, unplug the wires and test resistance across them. Likely the circuit will be open (infinite resistance) when in gear, almost no resistance (0.001 or something close) when in park.

---

Where are these switches normally found? There's a round-shaped switch next to the gear shift that has two wires connected to (one on each side of it). Maybe this is what you're talking about?

Seems likely. On Deere tractors, it looks like a large bolt/plug in the side of the transmission with connectors on top.

And I was a little unclear. Unplug the connector and test the resistance through the switch.

Similarly, you could leave it connected. and test voltage. One wire coming into the switch is probably hot (12V between wire and a ground on the frame) and the other is only hot when the gear shift is in neutral.

If you haven't worked with a multimeter much, play with the ground. It is sometimes hard to read a good ground through paint or rust, so drag the black wire around a bit to make sure you're making a good connection.

And did you try to drain the tank and/or the filters before cranking? It's a good time to do so.

Canyon, thanks a bunch for all the info/pointers. I'm actually not yet performing any of the items above since I'm working all weekend and just don't have the time to really do into this "project." I'm just trying to get some procedures in place to try out when I can actually work on the tractor.

I'm planning to drain all fluids as the first step I take when I get the chance to work on it. I actually have a multi-meter that is designed to read/test several types of currents (I guess). I've only used the volt-meter aspect of it as I'm pretty much a rookie on reading any other currents.

The primary issue is most definitely getting the starter to turn the engine over. As of right now the engine and/or starter acts as though it doesn't want to budge. I don't know about the diesel but I bet it's old/bad as its probably been sitting in the tank/lines for 2 years. And does hydraulic fluid/oil go bad? It has a Bush Hog Loader and also a 3-point hitch and PTO.

It can get contaminated, but if it is left sealed and pristine, it will last quite a long time.

New battery, new fuel filter, new fuel. All three. Then try to crank it.

I don't think diesel goes bad anywhere near as quickly as gasoline. If you drain it, let the first bit go on the ground, as it will have the most water/sediment. Catch the rest, and mix it back with new diesel if you want to make sure you have good fuel.

I store diesel for quite a while with no problems. I think there is a Sta-Bil for diesel, so if you aren't using it much, I'd mix Sta-Bil in with every tank. And keep the tank full.

With a tractor or other outside fuel tank, especially in central Texas (don't know where you are) water gets in the tank because the air goes in and out of the tank vented cap as the air heats and cools. When air comes in, it brings moisture with it. Keep your tank full and keep the air gap small.

I agree that hydraulic fluid will last a very, very long time if kept clean and filtered. If the system is sealed well and oil looks good on the dipstick, I wouldn't worry. Change the filter(s) if you want.

Wouldn't worry about the antifreeze, either, if it looks good and has the right amount of protection.

As for the multi-meter, I'm no expert either. But I like to use it to check voltage at various points in the circuit. Work your way through the system, and when you find a section with no voltage, you may have found your problem.

Battery first, then cable end where it attaches to starter, then starter switch, neutral safety, solenoid, etc....

The resistance side is good for checking wires and switches. Switch to OHMS (Omega sign) and hold the leads apart. Look at your reading, in some meters it is simply 1. Now touch the leads together, and the reading should go to zero or 0.0000001 or something.

So when you check a wire, touch a lead to each end. A low reading means wire is good, 1 or whatever the meter reads with the leads apart means bad wire.

With switches, "ON" will give you a low or zero reading, "OFF" the leads apart reading. Check by touching a lead to each terminal.

As I said earlier, you should get SOMETHING out of the starter by jumping. Maybe not enough to start, but something. A hot battery will make things easier, but it's not that big of an engine.

Some nice working knowledge of basic electrical circuits on this thread <IMG SRC="/images/forum/smile.gif">

Something else to check: Some tractors have a "safety" switch on the PTO lever. Make sure it is not in the engaged position. This is similar to a transmission neutral safety switch. Also, in addition to the transmission in neutral, make sure the transmission high/low range is in neutral as well.

on the high/low range note, i've had to hold the key in the start position and move the high/low lever back and forth to find the sweet spot for the safety switch.

My tractor has safety switches everywhere from PTO lever, neutral, operator presence...etc.

Most won't shut down the tractor when its running, but many will keep it from starting again.

Thanks for all the great info. I am still getting no response from the starter. After charging battery and hooking up by truck batter via jumper cables, stil nothing. I've jiggled everything and tried to make sure all gears are in neutral. Maybe the next step is multi-tester?

Yeah, I'm afraid you just need to start working your way through everything. If it were a Deere, I might at least have some clues to give you, but I've never been around a Long. And The Google tells me it's a Romanian UTB tractor anyway.

Start simple with fuses (the good ones have little to no resistance, bad ones infinite resistance) then wires, loose connections, etc. etc.

You might even put the tractor in the highest gear (KEY OFF, FUEL OFF) and rock it gently back and forth in case the starter is stuck in the flywheel.

My gut feeling it is something simple like a rusted-out key switch, blown fuse, bad solenoid, loose or rodent-chewed wire.

I think it's interesting you get NOTHING with the key. Do the gauges come up? Do the lights come on? Does anything click or hum?

It may be as simple as a bad battery connection or ground.

I've done a little Googling. There are a few repair manuals out there. You moght consider buying one. If granddad still has the owners manual, take a look through it.

SAFETY NOTICE: Please, please, please make sure the tractor is in park or neutral as you mess with it, don't stand in front of the tires, don't piddle with the key or starter while standing on the ground, etc. etc. Keep young children and old farts away.

Playing with the electrical system, it could bypass the safety interlocks, start in gear and run over you before you know what's happening.




[This message has been edited by CanyonAg77 (edited 3/28/2012 8:42p).]

quote:

---

I think it's interesting you get NOTHING with the key. Do the gauges come up? Do the lights come on? Does anything click or hum?

---

Yes, I do get a little gauge response and it has a dash light that comes on when I turn the key to the "on" position.

quote:

---

I've done a little Googling. There are a few repair manuals out there. You might consider buying one. If granddad still has the owners manual, take a look through it.

---

Do you remember where you found the repair manual? I'll Google myself to see if I can find one. That would be helpful to have, indeed.

quote:

---

SAFETY NOTICE: Please, please, please make sure the tractor is in park or neutral as you mess with it, don't stand in front of the tires, don't piddle with the key or starter while standing on the ground, etc. etc. Keep young children and old farts away.

Playing with the electrical system, it could bypass the safety interlocks, start in gear and run over you before you know it.

---

Outstanding point and I sincerely thank you very much for thinking of my safety.

quote:

---

Yes, I do get a little gauge response and it has a dash light that comes on when I turn the key to the "on" position.

---

Again, start simple, but I'm beginning to suspect solenoid.

manuals

http://www.jensales.com/460_c_132127.html


And when you're as old a fart as I am, you've seen a lot of stupid deaths when it comes to farm equipment. When you're 25 and the widow of a guy killed in a combine accident gives you a hug because you're one of 50 neighbors in a field helping finish the harvest, you don't take things for granted anymore.

John Deere tractors (4020 series up through -30 series) were notorious for being started in gear. They had problems with something (interlock, switch, solenoid, I don't remember) so lots of guys would stand on the ground by the starter and short across the solenoid to start them.

Unfortunately, that also placed them in front of the left rear wheel, and when the tractor started, they would be under the wheel before they knew what happened. I know of one such death in my little community when I was a kid.

John Deere got sued over it, and in response sent out roving bands of JD mechanics. They would come up to you in the field, and if your tractor did not have a plastic cover over the solenoid, they would install one.

There was also a successful lawsuit over the combine death I mentioned. The next series of JD combines had a switch in the seat that shut down the header if no one was in the seat. We always wondered if the two instances were related.

[This message has been edited by CanyonAg77 (edited 3/28/2012 10:55p).]

Ag12, been lurking here hoping to see that your Long had fired up and was running great. Absent that, I'll jump on with my 2 cents. 1st, the safety warnings are priority 1. However, if you decide that jumping the solenoid can be done safely, and if you do have fire to the solenoid posts, and you get nothing when you hit the switch, its either switch or solenoid. Arc the solenoid and hear the click but no starter spin, there's ur problem. Or, just pull the starter, take it to NAPA and they'll bench test it for nothing.
By the way, I've done the "arc at starter" thing more times than I could count... But I'm from East Texas so nothing is considered too stupid to try. BE SAFE

I didn't say I've never started a 4020 by shorting....although I usually climbed up on the platform and leaned over to do it....

What a crappy way to die

Thanks to all you guys for your thoughts, help, recommendations, etc. It's all very much appreciated.

I've had to work some extreme hours the last few days, so I haven't tried a few of CanyonAg's recommendations, but I can tell you (JarheadAg) that I do have fire at the solenoid, but when I arc-ed/shorted across it a few weeks back, it sounded like the starter was just spinning in place and not popping over onto the flywheel. Am I doing something wrong on the arc/short job?

More work on the Long to come this weekend.


[This message has been edited by Ag12thman (edited 3/29/2012 9:23p).]

quote:

---

it sounded like the starter was just spinning in place and not popping over onto the flywheel

---

That sounds like the bendix is stuck. Pull the starter and see if it's gummed up or rusted.

Bendix? I'm starter dumb, so can you explain what this is?

The "Bendix" (named after the company) is the part that slides the teeth on the starter into the flywheel when the starter spins, and lets it retract when the starter is disengaged.



The solenoid on a starter is a relay, taking the small current from your key and switching on the big current from your battery.

On some starters, the Bendix is all that forces the starter cog into the flywheel cog through centrifugal force. On others (old Chevy, possibly current chevy) the solenoid also pushes the cog into contact with the flywheel.



I don't recall all the wiring ins and outs, but I think it IS possible to short a terminal that will cause the starter to spin, but if it does not have a Bendix drive, it may not engage.


If the solenoid is built onto the starter, I bet it is a Chevy type. If the solenoid is not on the starter (like old Fords) I bet it is a Bendix type.

[This message has been edited by CanyonAg77 (edited 3/29/2012 10:59p).]

Wow, great diagrams. Thanks! From what I remember (without being able to look at it), I think the solenoid is outside the starter (on top of it). So, basically, it's like the small gear doesn't kick over to turn the flywheel when I short the switch. I guess I'm shorting correctly on the posts of the solenoid. Can I assume, by the fact that I can't get the key switch to make the starter at least spin, that my cranking issue is in the wires running from the starter to the key switch? Or could it still be a faulty solenoid or starter in general?