schmellba99 said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

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Jugstore Cowboy said:

---

Quote:

---

If we are going to play the game that climate change is making storms stronger

---

Let's play the game that population growth and increased density results in more people being impacted when a storm hits Houston, and that the resulting rise in insurance claims and social media complaints play a significant role in driving the perception that storms are getting more severe.

Here are a bunch of derechos you never heard of because they didn't **** up large population centers, including one that hit Lake Livingston in 1986: https://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/derechofacts.htm#otherderechos

Let's also play the game that yuppy transplants to Houston just flat out complain more than people in lower population areas (see the storms and flooding along the Trinity River earlier this month for comparison) even when those people get displaced from their homes by severe storms, rather than simply losing ac and wifi.

---

Lets play the game.

Can we agree that Bridgeland was one of the hardest hit areas right? 0 to Cat 2 winds...yet their power is mostly or entirely back already. Why? Because when Bridgeland was being built, the decision was made to bury the lines. So though a tornado went through the area, their recovery is pretty quick because there was limited infrastructure to be damaged.

So we could take a first step and say all new planned communities must have their homes buried.

Then we could begin to look at other opportunities to bury lines during major construction events. Everything is constantly under construction, so there's going to be ways to perform these tasks while everything is already torn up.

Because at the end of the day, No derecho, hurricane, trees, or tornado bothers lines underground, and when you've reduced your above ground assets.

Maybe instead of feeling blessed when CenterPoint cuts back trees every couple years, we find ways for the trees not to matter....

And yes, I realize there will be extra cost. Yes I realize the citizens will likely be on the hook for some of it. But how long are we going to pretend there's another serious option or what Cat 3/4/5 hurricane is it going to take to wake the leadership up that what we have isn't working?

---

You don't have a good grasp on how much that "extra cost" will be, and the citizens will be on the hook for 100% of the costs.

Amazng how that happens - corporations pass on costs to consumers.

I hate to break this to you, but "just burying a line" is, in almost every single case, a fuggin complicated, expensive and time consuming endeavor that always ends up with additional costs, delays, etc. because nobody has a clue what is underground and it is 100% inevitable that something will be compromised in the process.

---

Corporations only pass on costs the market will bear. Corporations also typically have competition that drives those costs down. Neither exists here because we've already established CenterPoint is a monopoly.

So they must be treated differently than the average corporation.

---

Centerpoint will pass on 100% of it's additional costs to customers. Fact.

Funny thing about electricity - in today's world, it's a necessity. So the market will bear the additional costs, whether the market likes it or not.

---

ccolley68 said:

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These arguments back and forth about CenterPoint and costs is like if someone said people still die in car accidents, the car companies are evil for allowing us to die, they should have to make cars so strong it's impossible to die, even if it meant a Sentra would now cost $630,000. This can't stand. Then when someone comes along and says "well hold on just a second, it's a calculated risk, one of the most dangerous things we do everyday is get into a car on the highway, but we know that and factor in that risk to keep the cost and functionality of the vehicle the way we want." And then the original person just comes back and says you must hate kids because you love the car companies and want all kids to die in wrecks.

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texagbeliever said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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schmellba99 said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

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Jugstore Cowboy said:

---

Quote:

---

If we are going to play the game that climate change is making storms stronger

---

Let's play the game that population growth and increased density results in more people being impacted when a storm hits Houston, and that the resulting rise in insurance claims and social media complaints play a significant role in driving the perception that storms are getting more severe.

Here are a bunch of derechos you never heard of because they didn't **** up large population centers, including one that hit Lake Livingston in 1986: https://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/derechofacts.htm#otherderechos

Let's also play the game that yuppy transplants to Houston just flat out complain more than people in lower population areas (see the storms and flooding along the Trinity River earlier this month for comparison) even when those people get displaced from their homes by severe storms, rather than simply losing ac and wifi.

---

Lets play the game.

Can we agree that Bridgeland was one of the hardest hit areas right? 0 to Cat 2 winds...yet their power is mostly or entirely back already. Why? Because when Bridgeland was being built, the decision was made to bury the lines. So though a tornado went through the area, their recovery is pretty quick because there was limited infrastructure to be damaged.

So we could take a first step and say all new planned communities must have their homes buried.

Then we could begin to look at other opportunities to bury lines during major construction events. Everything is constantly under construction, so there's going to be ways to perform these tasks while everything is already torn up.

Because at the end of the day, No derecho, hurricane, trees, or tornado bothers lines underground, and when you've reduced your above ground assets.

Maybe instead of feeling blessed when CenterPoint cuts back trees every couple years, we find ways for the trees not to matter....

And yes, I realize there will be extra cost. Yes I realize the citizens will likely be on the hook for some of it. But how long are we going to pretend there's another serious option or what Cat 3/4/5 hurricane is it going to take to wake the leadership up that what we have isn't working?

---

You don't have a good grasp on how much that "extra cost" will be, and the citizens will be on the hook for 100% of the costs.

Amazng how that happens - corporations pass on costs to consumers.

I hate to break this to you, but "just burying a line" is, in almost every single case, a fuggin complicated, expensive and time consuming endeavor that always ends up with additional costs, delays, etc. because nobody has a clue what is underground and it is 100% inevitable that something will be compromised in the process.

---

Corporations only pass on costs the market will bear. Corporations also typically have competition that drives those costs down. Neither exists here because we've already established CenterPoint is a monopoly.

So they must be treated differently than the average corporation.

---

Centerpoint will pass on 100% of it's additional costs to customers. Fact.

Funny thing about electricity - in today's world, it's a necessity. So the market will bear the additional costs, whether the market likes it or not.

---

CenterPoint will try to pass on the cost. This is where the government needs to decide if it has a backbone or not.

How much power does a monopoly get to have? How much power does a for-profit monopoly get to have?

As I said, the math can be changed to incentivize change. In a fair market, yes many of those costs get passed, but we aren't in a fair market and so other discussion need to be had.

Can CenterPoint justify the lack of hardening of the grid? If the answer is no, then does that lead to a different outcome than just giving them more money?

It's a lazy answer to just take the position that CenterPoint potentially gets to underperform in their service, in order to enrich their customers, and the only alternative is to let them charge more to do their job, in order to enrich their customers.

CenterPoint needs to be pushed on whether they actually value the monopoly they have.

---

You are quite ignorant on the Transmission and Distribution of Energy. Yet you are quite confident everyone else is doing a bad job. Everyone that opposes you is just "lazy". I admit a lot of the responses are lazy, because they realize they can't educate you enough to see that you are wrong.

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TarponChaser said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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texagbeliever said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

Jugstore Cowboy said:

---

Quote:

---

If we are going to play the game that climate change is making storms stronger

---

Let's play the game that population growth and increased density results in more people being impacted when a storm hits Houston, and that the resulting rise in insurance claims and social media complaints play a significant role in driving the perception that storms are getting more severe.

Here are a bunch of derechos you never heard of because they didn't **** up large population centers, including one that hit Lake Livingston in 1986: https://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/derechofacts.htm#otherderechos

Let's also play the game that yuppy transplants to Houston just flat out complain more than people in lower population areas (see the storms and flooding along the Trinity River earlier this month for comparison) even when those people get displaced from their homes by severe storms, rather than simply losing ac and wifi.

---

Lets play the game.

Can we agree that Bridgeland was one of the hardest hit areas right? 0 to Cat 2 winds...yet their power is mostly or entirely back already. Why? Because when Bridgeland was being built, the decision was made to bury the lines. So though a tornado went through the area, their recovery is pretty quick because there was limited infrastructure to be damaged.

So we could take a first step and say all new planned communities must have their homes buried.

Then we could begin to look at other opportunities to bury lines during major construction events. Everything is constantly under construction, so there's going to be ways to perform these tasks while everything is already torn up.

Because at the end of the day, No derecho, hurricane, trees, or tornado bothers lines underground, and when you've reduced your above ground assets.

Maybe instead of feeling blessed when CenterPoint cuts back trees every couple years, we find ways for the trees not to matter....

And yes, I realize there will be extra cost. Yes I realize the citizens will likely be on the hook for some of it. But how long are we going to pretend there's another serious option or what Cat 3/4/5 hurricane is it going to take to wake the leadership up that what we have isn't working?

---

You don't have a good grasp on how much that "extra cost" will be, and the citizens will be on the hook for 100% of the costs.

Amazng how that happens - corporations pass on costs to consumers.

I hate to break this to you, but "just burying a line" is, in almost every single case, a fuggin complicated, expensive and time consuming endeavor that always ends up with additional costs, delays, etc. because nobody has a clue what is underground and it is 100% inevitable that something will be compromised in the process.

---

Corporations only pass on costs the market will bear. Corporations also typically have competition that drives those costs down. Neither exists here because we've already established CenterPoint is a monopoly.

So they must be treated differently than the average corporation.

---

Centerpoint will pass on 100% of it's additional costs to customers. Fact.

Funny thing about electricity - in today's world, it's a necessity. So the market will bear the additional costs, whether the market likes it or not.

---

CenterPoint will try to pass on the cost. This is where the government needs to decide if it has a backbone or not.

How much power does a monopoly get to have? How much power does a for-profit monopoly get to have?

As I said, the math can be changed to incentivize change. In a fair market, yes many of those costs get passed, but we aren't in a fair market and so other discussion need to be had.

Can CenterPoint justify the lack of hardening of the grid? If the answer is no, then does that lead to a different outcome than just giving them more money?

It's a lazy answer to just take the position that CenterPoint potentially gets to underperform in their service, in order to enrich their customers, and the only alternative is to let them charge more to do their job, in order to enrich their customers.

CenterPoint needs to be pushed on whether they actually value the monopoly they have.

---

You are quite ignorant on the Transmission and Distribution of Energy. Yet you are quite confident everyone else is doing a bad job. Everyone that opposes you is just "lazy". I admit a lot of the responses are lazy, because they realize they can't educate you enough to see that you are wrong.

---

Straw man much?

CenterPoints plan, per their own release, is to trim trees and replace some poles. Status quo.

Many on here basically say that's all that can be done. If there are other options, lets here them.

But again, what I started with. Lets start simple: Can you agree that we should make this a requirement for new developments? Cost difference is neglible, if any, and doesn't grow the problem? Seems reasonable right?

What about where we have major construction planned already? Seems reasonable to look for synergies there

None of this is new of course. It was argued in Dallas 10 years ago...https://communityimpact.com/austin/news/2015/12/09/battle-over-buried-power-lines-nearing-the-end/

In most cases there are already easements all over the place, which open lots of opportunities to reduce costs when working within the easements.

But again, we can sit here and say nothing is possible...that is certainly an option.

---

The cost to bury lines when developing raw land is not remotely negligible. Last I saw the costs, even when starting from scratch were about $1MM per mile of line. So roughly $190 per linear foot. And in a 2000ac master-planned community you can easily have 50 miles worth of lines winding back & forth. So $50MM in a project like that is not remotely "negligible."

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schmellba99 said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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texagbeliever said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

Jugstore Cowboy said:

---

Quote:

---

If we are going to play the game that climate change is making storms stronger

---

Let's play the game that population growth and increased density results in more people being impacted when a storm hits Houston, and that the resulting rise in insurance claims and social media complaints play a significant role in driving the perception that storms are getting more severe.

Here are a bunch of derechos you never heard of because they didn't **** up large population centers, including one that hit Lake Livingston in 1986: https://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/derechofacts.htm#otherderechos

Let's also play the game that yuppy transplants to Houston just flat out complain more than people in lower population areas (see the storms and flooding along the Trinity River earlier this month for comparison) even when those people get displaced from their homes by severe storms, rather than simply losing ac and wifi.

---

Lets play the game.

Can we agree that Bridgeland was one of the hardest hit areas right? 0 to Cat 2 winds...yet their power is mostly or entirely back already. Why? Because when Bridgeland was being built, the decision was made to bury the lines. So though a tornado went through the area, their recovery is pretty quick because there was limited infrastructure to be damaged.

So we could take a first step and say all new planned communities must have their homes buried.

Then we could begin to look at other opportunities to bury lines during major construction events. Everything is constantly under construction, so there's going to be ways to perform these tasks while everything is already torn up.

Because at the end of the day, No derecho, hurricane, trees, or tornado bothers lines underground, and when you've reduced your above ground assets.

Maybe instead of feeling blessed when CenterPoint cuts back trees every couple years, we find ways for the trees not to matter....

And yes, I realize there will be extra cost. Yes I realize the citizens will likely be on the hook for some of it. But how long are we going to pretend there's another serious option or what Cat 3/4/5 hurricane is it going to take to wake the leadership up that what we have isn't working?

---

You don't have a good grasp on how much that "extra cost" will be, and the citizens will be on the hook for 100% of the costs.

Amazng how that happens - corporations pass on costs to consumers.

I hate to break this to you, but "just burying a line" is, in almost every single case, a fuggin complicated, expensive and time consuming endeavor that always ends up with additional costs, delays, etc. because nobody has a clue what is underground and it is 100% inevitable that something will be compromised in the process.

---

Corporations only pass on costs the market will bear. Corporations also typically have competition that drives those costs down. Neither exists here because we've already established CenterPoint is a monopoly.

So they must be treated differently than the average corporation.

---

Centerpoint will pass on 100% of it's additional costs to customers. Fact.

Funny thing about electricity - in today's world, it's a necessity. So the market will bear the additional costs, whether the market likes it or not.

---

CenterPoint will try to pass on the cost. This is where the government needs to decide if it has a backbone or not.

How much power does a monopoly get to have? How much power does a for-profit monopoly get to have?

As I said, the math can be changed to incentivize change. In a fair market, yes many of those costs get passed, but we aren't in a fair market and so other discussion need to be had.

Can CenterPoint justify the lack of hardening of the grid? If the answer is no, then does that lead to a different outcome than just giving them more money?

It's a lazy answer to just take the position that CenterPoint potentially gets to underperform in their service, in order to enrich their customers, and the only alternative is to let them charge more to do their job, in order to enrich their customers.

CenterPoint needs to be pushed on whether they actually value the monopoly they have.

---

You are quite ignorant on the Transmission and Distribution of Energy. Yet you are quite confident everyone else is doing a bad job. Everyone that opposes you is just "lazy". I admit a lot of the responses are lazy, because they realize they can't educate you enough to see that you are wrong.

---

Straw man much?

CenterPoints plan, per their own release, is to trim trees and replace some poles. Status quo.

Many on here basically say that's all that can be done. If there are other options, lets here them.

But again, what I started with. Lets start simple: Can you agree that we should make this a requirement for new developments? Cost difference is neglible, if any, and doesn't grow the problem? Seems reasonable right?

What about where we have major construction planned already? Seems reasonable to look for synergies there

None of this is new of course. It was argued in Dallas 10 years ago...https://communityimpact.com/austin/news/2015/12/09/battle-over-buried-power-lines-nearing-the-end/

In most cases there are already easements all over the place, which open lots of opportunities to reduce costs when working within the easements.

But again, we can sit here and say nothing is possible...that is certainly an option.

---

Reading R hard.

Nobody is saying anything close to "can't be done", "it's impossible", etc. You are intepreting things that way, incorrectly at that.

What has been said is that your "simple" solutions of bury the lines or "just incorporate new buried lines into construction projects" is anything but simple, and all come at a cost. Those costs will be passed to the consumers, like every other cost is. You seem to not understand these things at all.

Is it easier to bury lines in a brand new development that is greenfield? Yes, absolutely. Is the additional cost to do so "negligible"? No, it is not. Burying lines isn't just some function of go dig a hole and put the wire in, there are many more factors at play than that that have to be accounted for, all of which make it more expensive. Developers have higher costs, guess what....houses then have higher costs. And the housing market is already in bad shape as it is with respect to costs. Property taxes go up. Repair costs for buried are higher than they are for above ground and take significantly longer to perform. More costs.

Those easements that are "everywhere"? Yeah, those are negotiated and paid for by companies. Thinking that Centerpoint would just hand over part of an easement they spent who knows how much time and money obtaning to somebody else is silly. That would be like you building a new driveway to your house and your neighbor demanding that you go ahead and pay for his new driveway "because they are next to each other!". Easements cost money, much of the time they cost a lot of money. Companies don't just hand over the fruits of their labor to other companies.

You also talk about monopoly. Tell me, what would your plan be for a competitor to come in and give Centerpoint a run for their money? Where would the easements be? How much woudl the land cost? How much would the installation of [buried] mains, substations and term lines cost? Where would they be installed at? What would the ROI be on the hardware?

You are literally throwing crap against a wall and trying to make it stick, all the while sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling LA-LA-LA-LA-LA! whenever anybody tries to explain anything to you.

Could Centerpoint improve? Abso-fuggin-loutely. Any company could, and most of us could probably point to some low hanging fruit pretty easily were we magically made dictator of the company and could make decisions. That's universal across the board. But this idea that there should never be any power loss ever, even after a storm that produced freaking tornadoes and 150+ mph winds is just juvenile and silly.

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TarponChaser said:

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Kingwood lnes aren't buried. Bridgeland & Woodlands are mixed. .

If you're doing a development with 400 homes and burying 50 miles of lines you're talking about having to add an extra $125K to the price of each home.

Burying lines is prohibitively expensive. But what do I know, I've only been doing real estate deals and developing land for nearly 20 years.

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Quote:

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A lot of various factors at play, but ultimately it comes down to cost and the fact that nobody wants costs to go up any.

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TarponChaser said:

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Burying lines is prohibitively expensive. But what do I know, I've only been doing real estate deals and developing land for nearly 20 years.

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CDUB98 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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A lot of various factors at play, but ultimately it comes down to cost and the fact that nobody wants costs to go up any.

---

Well, looks like we're going to pay for it anyway.

Massive restoration means a massive cost, and energy experts said customers may see an increase
https://abc13.com/post/houston-power-outages-massive-restoration-means-massive-cost/14854170/

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Umm, yeah. They don't do all this repair work for free.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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CDUB98 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

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A lot of various factors at play, but ultimately it comes down to cost and the fact that nobody wants costs to go up any.

---

Well, looks like we're going to pay for it anyway.

Massive restoration means a massive cost, and energy experts said customers may see an increase
https://abc13.com/post/houston-power-outages-massive-restoration-means-massive-cost/14854170/

---

Umm, yeah. They don't do all this repair work for free.

---

I thought someone earlier in the thread said they had brainiacs and mathematicians who planned for this kind of thing. Which is it?

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texagbeliever said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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CDUB98 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

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A lot of various factors at play, but ultimately it comes down to cost and the fact that nobody wants costs to go up any.

---

Well, looks like we're going to pay for it anyway.

Massive restoration means a massive cost, and energy experts said customers may see an increase
https://abc13.com/post/houston-power-outages-massive-restoration-means-massive-cost/14854170/

---

Umm, yeah. They don't do all this repair work for free.

---

I thought someone earlier in the thread said they had brainiacs and mathematicians who planned for this kind of thing. Which is it?

---

Have you seen pictures of the trees that fell down? This wasn't a limb or two intertwined in some power lines that caused issues. These were large healthy trees snapping at the base. Some even unrooting. Unless you think Centerpoint can just go around chopping down all the trees they aren't going to prevent this from happening again.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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texagbeliever said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

CDUB98 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

A lot of various factors at play, but ultimately it comes down to cost and the fact that nobody wants costs to go up any.

---

Well, looks like we're going to pay for it anyway.

Massive restoration means a massive cost, and energy experts said customers may see an increase
https://abc13.com/post/houston-power-outages-massive-restoration-means-massive-cost/14854170/

---

Umm, yeah. They don't do all this repair work for free.

---

I thought someone earlier in the thread said they had brainiacs and mathematicians who planned for this kind of thing. Which is it?

---

Have you seen pictures of the trees that fell down? This wasn't a limb or two intertwined in some power lines that caused issues. These were large healthy trees snapping at the base. Some even unrooting. Unless you think Centerpoint can just go around chopping down all the trees they aren't going to prevent this from happening again.

---

I understand that. Someone made the claim that Centerpoint weighs the cost of preventative measures vs. the cost of cleanup. So the cost of cleanup should be baked into the rate. But the above article says we're going to see a price increase.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

CDUB98 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

A lot of various factors at play, but ultimately it comes down to cost and the fact that nobody wants costs to go up any.

---

Well, looks like we're going to pay for it anyway.

Massive restoration means a massive cost, and energy experts said customers may see an increase
https://abc13.com/post/houston-power-outages-massive-restoration-means-massive-cost/14854170/

---

Umm, yeah. They don't do all this repair work for free.

---

I thought someone earlier in the thread said they had brainiacs and mathematicians who planned for this kind of thing. Which is it?

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

CDUB98 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

A lot of various factors at play, but ultimately it comes down to cost and the fact that nobody wants costs to go up any.

---

Well, looks like we're going to pay for it anyway.

Massive restoration means a massive cost, and energy experts said customers may see an increase
https://abc13.com/post/houston-power-outages-massive-restoration-means-massive-cost/14854170/

---

Umm, yeah. They don't do all this repair work for free.

---

I thought someone earlier in the thread said they had brainiacs and mathematicians who planned for this kind of thing. Which is it?

---

Have you seen pictures of the trees that fell down? This wasn't a limb or two intertwined in some power lines that caused issues. These were large healthy trees snapping at the base. Some even unrooting. Unless you think Centerpoint can just go around chopping down all the trees they aren't going to prevent this from happening again.

---

I understand that. Someone made the claim that Centerpoint weighs the cost of preventative measures vs. the cost of cleanup. So the cost of cleanup should be baked into the rate. But the above article says we're going to see a price increase.

---

Texan_Aggie said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

CDUB98 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Quote:

---

A lot of various factors at play, but ultimately it comes down to cost and the fact that nobody wants costs to go up any.

---

Well, looks like we're going to pay for it anyway.

Massive restoration means a massive cost, and energy experts said customers may see an increase
https://abc13.com/post/houston-power-outages-massive-restoration-means-massive-cost/14854170/

---

Umm, yeah. They don't do all this repair work for free.

---

I thought someone earlier in the thread said they had brainiacs and mathematicians who planned for this kind of thing. Which is it?

---

Have you seen pictures of the trees that fell down? This wasn't a limb or two intertwined in some power lines that caused issues. These were large healthy trees snapping at the base. Some even unrooting. Unless you think Centerpoint can just go around chopping down all the trees they aren't going to prevent this from happening again.

---

I understand that. Someone made the claim that Centerpoint weighs the cost of preventative measures vs. the cost of cleanup. So the cost of cleanup should be baked into the rate. But the above article says we're going to see a price increase.

---

I think normal maintenance and recovery is baked in, yes, maybe even some localized damage for storms. This was not anything forecastable and the scale was more than imaginable.

Any company that has a large outlay of cash will still try to recover it. That means passing the cost onto the customer, which is how 99% of businesses work. Those that don't pass on the costs usually go out of business because they run losses. Point is that power costs are somewhat locked in right now for most customers, but contracts expire and then new ones are signed, and that's when you'll see the cost recovery.

---