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Public transit thought experiment

11,554 Views | 130 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by P.H. Dexippus
Waffledynamics
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I thought I'd float this out here just for a fun discussion. Political opinions aside, I'd be curious how someone would even begin to make public transit (be it rail, bus, or anything else) actually useful and feasible in our sprawling metropolis. I think that most people who call for these don't have any sort of idea of how it would be designed to actually work given the sprawl, weather, and layout of the city. Subways are not really an option, as I understand it.

A rough, simple idea I could think of would be a sort of rail system that could perhaps have one or two major hubs around the different areas on the outskirts of Houston (think one or two for Kingwood, one or two for Katy, one or two for Tomball, etc.) like the Park & Ride bus stations have. People could drive to those, park their car, and then take the train the rest of the way. Trains would follow roughly the same paths as the highways, leading in and out of town (along 59, 45, 290, 249, I10, etc.). Perhaps there could also be a plan for them to go roughly around the 610 loop and Beltway 8. As one gets closer into town into the major commute areas, the density of the stations increases to minimize walking and make the system more usable in the heat. These inner-city areas would have less parking to encourage people on the outskirts to use them more while giving people inside the city less reason their car in a more densely populated urban area with more risk.

Obviously, a system like this would require disastrous levels of construction and would never happen, but let's say that it could. How would you do it?
CrossBowAg99
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That is what most cities with mass transit already do. We just built a way for med center employees to park one mile south of the med center and ride the train to work. The is the vast majority of red line ridership.
aTm2004
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I've thought about this before, and if I had a magic wand, this is how I would set it up. It's obviously not perfect, but think it would serve what many in Houston would use it for.

1. Start with a central station just north of downtown around UHD or something.
2. From there, have elevated rail that runs along all of the HOV lanes on the major freeways (Eastex, SW, North, Gulf, 290, Katy, Baytown East, etc). There will be stations at each of the current park & rides, and you can have express trains from the big suburbs to downtown during morning rush, and from downtown during afternoon rush (Kingwood, Katy, Clear Lake, etc).
3. You would also need spurs off of the lines to go to popular areas of town for shopping, travel, and work (Galleria, Energy Corridor, Airports) similar to the Medical Center line. Maybe you could have the galleria one go directly from the central station through midtown and Westheimer or Richmond to service those areas as well and have a stop at Greenway Plaza. Hobby can be served by a spur of of the Gulf freeway line and IAH could be served by a train running from 59 to 45 along Will Clayton and Airtex.

It would obviously cost billions of dollars, take about 20 years to complete, and will never happen, but I will continue to dream. This city needs to get a better form of public transportation. NYC, Chicago, and DC all have superior pubic transportation systems and the foresight to do it years ago. Houston is stubborn and wants to continue to widen freeways to have larger parking lots and to also allow people to pay to clog up the HOV lanes.
Waffledynamics
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quote:
take about 20 years to complete
That quick?

FNG
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The foresight to begin this process years ago is why it won't happen in Houston.

Too much growth has occurred to make this feasible inside the loop and really inside a lot of the beltway.

Had they planned ahead decades ago this would be possible, but the battles to acquire right-of-way would take years before any dirt could be moved.
mustang6tee8
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It would take 20 years to do engineering studies and upgrade the existing and surrounding infrastructure before upgrades would even begin.

My approach would be to 1) educate the population to drive with common sense and 2) restrict large commercial vehicles from operating during peak hours (Hanoi has a similar law that seems to work well). But, I dream...
Noble07
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More & better Park N Ride bus options.

Read this idea online somewhere: Make the buses nicer with Wifi and a tray table that folds down like airplanes. Cater to business people and increase routes between residential hubs and business centers (Sugarland to Greenspoint, Westchase, etc)

Even if we build all of the rail lines discussed, the light rail is terribly slow. The connections necessary also add a ton of time.
BMX Bandit
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If self driving cars are the future like many claim, we won't need rail
Bondag
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http://dubaimetro.eu/dubai-metro-map

This is an example that we should follow. There is a line running North and South as well as one running more or less East and West. You have a single card to access the rail or bus system. There are buses at the major rail stations and cabs at the smaller ones. At many of the areas there are air conditioned hallways with automated people movers to take you to nearby buildings. Some of these are over a mile long. Not sure why Houston hasn't adopted this.
MelvinUdall
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This answer will be a bit off from what you asked, however more and more companies are going to a work from home type situation and while there is still
Some techology that needs to be advanced, I am not sure if I would spend billions upon billion in debt when I'm the future you are left with a limited tax base due to commercial properties taxes being less. I know he company I work for has already started the discussion of work from home or sharable cube/offices where more people are working from home. I will also add, as we get closer to driverless cars, the need for massive transit will change as well.
aTm2004
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My company offers a work from home every other Friday. In fact, that's what I'm doing today. Wife and kids are gone and it's complete silence. Finished more so far than I did all yesterday due to not having any interruptions or meetings to go to.
MelvinUdall
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quote:
My company offers a work from home every other Friday. In fact, that's what I'm doing today. Wife and kids are gone and it's complete silence. Finished more so far than I did all yesterday due to not having any interruptions or meetings to go to.


Mine is going to, eventually, to an every other day environment, or one week in and one week out. I am in sales and it doesn't necessarily apply to me, but more of the staff that is in-house. Like you, I get more done at home than when I am in the office.
MelvinUdall
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Just to add, my point in all of this is that a government needs to look 20, 30, 50 years down the road and ask themselves do we want to hamstring our city with $200 billion or more in debt when revenues may remain neutral or go down due changing technology which may show we do not need this type of transportation "fix" in the short term.
ballchain
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aTm2004
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The thing with going east and north is that those areas are changing from poor people to more and more young professionals. Well, the east is more so than the north. Putting the lines in there now is actually planning ahead, IMO. Building it there is cheaper right now since they're fighting a bunch of uneducated welfare people living in grandma's house rather that people with 6-figure incomes and professional degrees.
ballchain
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JJxvi
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quote:
The next segment - which was planned to run to the Galleria down Richmond was ****canned in favor of running the lines toward the East - down the Navigation/Canal hellholes, and North - through the North Main ghettos.
This is inaccurate. We voted in a referendum in 2003 authorizing Metro to build 6 new lines. 3 of which were/are being built, the ones you mention. The major east/west line connecting Greenway Plaza, Uptown, and connecting with the Eastern lines at UH and TSU was shut down by opposition from John Culberson and Tom Delay and eventually permanently shelved while Metro dealt with several issues (which were legitimate **** ups in the agency). John Culberson continues to block the line by adding riders to budgets and such that make it illegal for Metro to gain federal funding for this line even if Metro wanted to proceed to build it at this point. Another line in the referendum was an east/west washington corridor line which was always considered only a secondary option to be built later after the University line was built to connect the more major commercial areas, and the 6th was a north/south Uptown line connecting to each of the east/west routes which can't be built because it has nothing to connect to at this point. The uptown line is also in Culberson's district so its probably "illegal" for Metro to gain federal transit funding for that line either, anyway.
HBCanine08
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It would have to be improving the buses first - running on time, more frequently and later hours. I was impressed by how often and how late buses ran in Barcelona. You missed the bus and the most you'd wait is 10 min, if that. And they ran on time per the displays at the bus stops.

Second would be having a rail system similar to DART in Dallas, but expanding further out than downtown, making sure there are buses connecting the rest of the city close to each rail stop.

Finally, convincing everyone in Houston that it's ok to walk and use your legs to get to the stops.
JJxvi
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Also included and approved in Metro's 2003 referendum was commuter rail from missori city to Fannin St station south of reliant connecting the southwest suburbs to the red line.

I believe Metro is finally working on planning that, as they kinda struck a deal with Culberson that they would have to have another vote before building the Richmond/Westpark and Uptown lines in exchange for Culberson to agree to stop blocking money to fund this commuter line.
aTm2004
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The buses run behind because they're sitting in the same effing traffic as everybody else.
ballchain
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Texaggie7nine
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Via reddit

7nine
aTm2004
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That's actually not bad, assuming some of the stops are at the park & rides.
MelvinUdall
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I agree, they will push this through due to political corruption, this goes for both sides. There is no vision for this city, only the same tired responses to traffic.
26.2
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Forget corruption. Rail to the burbs will never happen unless Katy, League City, Sugarland, etc. cede over to the City of Houston. Why would the CoH want to spend billions on infrastructure to reduce commute times to areas outside of its tax base? They want commutes to be terrible to force you to buy within the city and expand the tax base.
HBCanine08
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quote:
Via reddit


JJxvi
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Transit is built by Metro of which the following cities are members. Houston, Bellaire, Bunker Hill Village, El Lago, Hedwig Village, Hilshire Village, Humble, Hunters Creek Village, Katy, Missouri City, Piney Point Village, Spring Valley Village, Southside Place, Taylor Lake Village, and West University Place and many areas of unincorporated Harris County.

The Woodlands, Pearland, Sugar Land, League City, Richmond etc are all outside of Harris County and thus any transit to those places would likely require some different political machinations.
Ag03 CQE
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Metro Rail has been so badly implemented and left such a bad taste in everyone's mouth that I doubt voters will approve more rail lines for at least 20 years.

Of course there's really no reason for more rail lines anyway. Rail is expensive to lay and trains are limited where the rail is. Instead of rail lines from downtown out to the suburbs, dedicated bus lanes would accomplish the same thing while providing greater route flexibility. I would be in favor of eliminating the managed (toll) lanes and having a bus-only lane and an HOV lane. Build some bus-only exits and bus stations and you'd be doing the same thing with buses that you'd be doing with much more expensive light rail.
htownag10
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quote:


Obviously, a system like this would require disastrous levels of construction and would never happen, but let's say that it could. How would you do it?
Do you think Houston is shy about construction? Have you seen 290? haha
GCRanger
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Upgrade the P&R system to increase riders:
- more convenient P&R location
- Add more multi-stop services (downtown then med center, expresses and locals)
- wifi and other onboard perks
- Upgrade P&R locations to include mixed-use retail and housing (apartments). It would be great to have dry-cleaners, convenient store, to-go dinner, etc. right there
- run more often as demand necessitates
- allow automated cars to use system as they become more common

Bus Rapid Transit
- Put in BRT routes instead of rail following a similar plan to the Reddit picture above. BRT is so much cheaper than rail.
- This could be tied in to P&R or even replace it

City/County tax incentives to companies that have flex schedules or work from home schedules.

Automated cars
- It will eventually happen

JJxvi
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quote:
Metro Rail has been so badly implemented and left such a bad taste in everyone's mouth that I doubt voters will approve more rail lines for at least 20 years.
I suspect it would win. Again, as it has done every time, despite gnashing of teeth from the suburbs.
Bondag
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Park and Ride does not account for people that live in town and commute to burbs.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
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If the COH is going to drop billions in capital then why not eschew the super expensive and likely ineffective "plop some rail lines down and add some busses" model completely?

Here's the alternative: start with the uber model and maximize the infrastructure (roads) you already have. Develop self driving busses that work more like uber and price more like uber. So if I log onto the metro network and request a bus stop (suppose at the end of my street) and a drop off at or near work, I'll get a notification that a bus will arrive in a certain amount of time and I will reach my destination (without having to change busses) in a pre specified amount of time. My fare will also be pre determined based on system optimization.

The bus vehicles would probably need to be smaller to better optimize usage. Monthly rider passes could be priced on an optimization metric (subject to a monthly maximum) so that a rider that travels shorter distances on higher density routes pays less than a rider that frequents long distance low density routes

A big reality of car commuting is that for a lot of people (me included) is that using the current system/model changes a 10 minute drive to work into a 35 - 40 minute ride with a stop and transfer. If you can change the concept of the bus from a necessary hassle for people who can't afford cars to a legitimate competitior to driving yourself to work, you'll see a real increase in ridership.
JSKolache
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Do everyone in town a favor and live near where you work. Problem solved.
Dr. Doctor
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I always wondered why they couldn't build "H" structures on top of HOV lanes for rail. 2 tracks for N/S or E/W traffic. Stop at PnR locations and speed in.

The HOV can't take oversized loads, so build it just a bit higher than the buses and would solve some issues of getting land or area for tracks. I know you are limited on slope and such.


But one thought is going to trains could remove some of the buses for PnR, which would remove cars off the road.


But I honestly think we need the Futurama human tubes instead.

~egon
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