Someone told me the original sell on the referendum for the bonds to create the HCTRA / Beltway 8 and Hardy was that the purpose for the toll was to not have a tax increase. Similarly, once the bonds were paid for on BW8 and Hardy that the tolls would cease.

I looked around to see if I could find anything about that but came up short.

So, why would Houstonians vote to create toll roads AND $900 million in bonds? Any truth to this stuff?

Beltway 8 did have a promise like this attached to it at voting time. My mom remembers it since the only reason she voted for it was because they said the tolls would come down once it is completed and paid off. I remember not long ago a local news crew did a story on the exact same thing. They asked local reps about the situation and promises made at the time of the initial vote. Of course they beat around the bush saying they can't possibly get rid of the tolls now because of maintenance costs

basically it's a money making machine for them and they don't want to let go of their sacred cow

quote:

---

Someone told me the original sell on the referendum for the bonds to create the HCTRA / Beltway 8 and Hardy was that the purpose for the toll was to not have a tax increase. Similarly, once the bonds were paid for on BW8 and Hardy that the tolls would cease.

I looked around to see if I could find anything about that but came up short.

So, why would Houstonians vote to create toll roads AND $900 million in bonds? Any truth to this stuff?

---

This dead horse is so old that when you beat it the bones turn to dust.

Seriously this seems to come up every few months for....well as long as I can remember. Long before there was ever a TexAgs.

Yep that was the original intention. Now they are using the excuse of needing the tolls to pay for repairs and future repairs.


Tolls are here to stay. EOT

I remember as recently as about 2002 that HCTRA had a statement on its website that the roads would be made free and turned over to TxDOT when the bonds were paid off.

TxDOT didn't want to take the roads because they don't have the money to maintain and upgrade the roads that they have now.

I think you should call your county commissioner to get to the bottom of this ASAP.

LOL at anyone who thinks government or some other bureaucratic organization will ever let up on monies they are receiving.

Think about how bad the Beltway is right now. Can you imagine if it was free?

If you think they would ever dream of making it free then you are an idiot.

As others have pointed out, the original proposition was to remove the tolls once the bonds were paid off. However, those bonds have not been paid off and likely never will. Even if HCTRA stops building roads (and incurring new corresponding debt), they will continue to refinance the remaining debt. Additionally, at some point (I think around 2007), the Commissioners' Court voted to consolidate all the individual roads and their corresponding debts into one large system/debt. Therefore, despite the fact that some sections have collected enough tolls to pay off their original bonds, HCTRA is viewed as an entire system. As long as HCTRA has any outstanding bonds, tolls will continue to be collected system-wide. It should also be noted that the tolls not only fund the maintenance of the system (at a much higher level than TxDOT), but they also provide money to the individual precincts for their road and bridge programs. If the tolls were to go away, you would have a multi-million dollar hole in the county budget that would have to be made up either by reducing spending or jacking up property taxes.

Anyone that wants the Sam Houston Tollway to be free obviously did not drive it during the period immediately following Ike when there were no tolls.

HCTRA: "So, we can do away with the tolls, but where is the money going to come from the maintain, expand or whatever the roadway? Or, we can spend the money like it's burning a hole in our pocket. Must find a way to spend spend spend!!!"

This is what big governments do...if there's money in the pot, they WILL find a way to spend it!

As an example, about two years ago I was cruising down the Westpark Toll and they had a crew out painting the concrete side barriers. Evidently the concrete was fading or something, so they wanted to go paint it. Who gives a **** if the barrier is a nice, smooth creamy color? It's a f***ing concrete barrier to keep your drunk a$$ from going over the side of the road! (Well, actually, it's to keep toll-skippers from cutting through medians to get on/off the tollroad.) You would NEVER see TXDOT out painting the barriers. But, hey, HCTRA has the $$$, so gotta spend it somehow.

Oh, and any other roadway have dedicated tow truck teams? You know you've seen them on the Belt with the big flashing light arrows on the back of the trucks. Clearly, the "roadside service" response on the Belt is drastically different than the Free Clear crap that's on the free roads.

But, as mentioned, the citizens hath voted and the citizens hath received. Only a fool would think the toll money-tree would ever go away.

quote:

---

As an example, about two years ago I was cruising down the Westpark Toll and they had a crew out painting the concrete side barriers. Evidently the concrete was fading or something, so they wanted to go paint it. Who gives a **** if the barrier is a nice, smooth creamy color? It's a f***ing concrete barrier to keep your drunk a$$ from going over the side of the road! (Well, actually, it's to keep toll-skippers from cutting through medians to get on/off the tollroad.) You would NEVER see TXDOT out painting the barriers. But, hey, HCTRA has the $$$, so gotta spend it somehow.

---

Actually.....

There is a possibility the paint was not just cosmetic. Painting concrete can be a good way to protect and preserve. It could also be a way to cover up unsightly and possibly unsettling repairs that were made.

There barriers were painted because HCTRA has a requirement in their bonds that they maintain the road to a certain level both physically and aesthetically. Basically, if I am going to give you money to build something, I want you to take care of it and I want it to look good. I think they aesthetic requirement came about when politicians in the northeast siphoned all of the toll money out of the system and the roads looked like sheet.

The incident management crews are awesome! Every nickel they spend on that comes back 10 fold in reduced congestion. TxDOT wishes they could do that on the free roads.

So why is TxDOT broke?

That would suck if they didn't charge tolls. Shlts always backed up now, can you imaging the gridlock if it didn't cost money to drive on the beltway or Westpark?!

quote:

---

That would suck if they didn't charge tolls. Shlts always backed up now, can you imaging the gridlock if it didn't cost money to drive on the beltway or Westpark?!

---

The Westpark could never not be a toll road. It is too narrow to open it up to the levels of traffic it could receive if it wasn't a pay road. It already is gridlock now with it being a pay option.

There is a bunch of justification for the tolls now but yes, they lied to get it to pass. Now they will make you think they are broke and need bond/tax/fee revenue to keep up with growth. Guess what? They will never have enough money. Government and it's preferred contractors will always do what's best for them first.

quote:

---

So why is TxDOT broke?

---

These are the main reasons:

Cars are getting more fuel efficient, so more mile driven for same amount of tax

Gas tax hasn't been raised in about 20 years and it is not adjusted for inflation

It costs more to build roads today due to inflation

quote:

---

So why is TxDOT broke?

---

because it's run with the same efficiencies as most gov't organizations?

quote:

---

quote:

---

So why is TxDOT broke?

---

These are the main reasons:

Cars are getting more fuel efficient, so more mile driven for same amount of tax

Gas tax hasn't been raised in about 20 years and it is not adjusted for inflation

It costs more to build roads today due to inflation

---

That's pretty much what I have heard.

They planning on raising the tax?

I did get a kick out of all the entrance/exit ramps (at least the ones I use) on the BW8 increasing from $0.75 to $1.00. Sure, only $0.25, but on a % basis that is a 33% increase. Think if everyone else just had a random 33% price increase. I wonder what the 33% pick up in revenue will go towards?

The prices increase in increments of $0.25 so drivers (and the collectors) only have to handle quarters and aren't digging for nickles and dimes to pay a $0.90 toll.

On the EZ Tag only roads the prices increase in $0.05 increments.

So voters create an entity to build two toll roads, and when they're paid for, they become highways.

Two toll roads are built, but instead of paying down debt and finishing mandate, the HCTRA creates the Westpark toll road, the Fort Bend toll road, and a toll road along I-10. Then they say, well, look, we have a whole bunch of new stuff to maintain, so the tolls will stay.

About right?

Yup

...and the Grand Parkway rollaway will be under construction for at least 20 more years. Gonna eventually connect clear lake to US 59SW. The tolls will never end.

quote:

---

So voters create an entity to build two toll roads, and when they're paid for, they become highways.

Two toll roads are built, but instead of paying down debt and finishing mandate, the HCTRA creates the Westpark toll road, the Fort Bend toll road, and a toll road along I-10. Then they say, well, look, we have a whole bunch of new stuff to maintain, so the tolls will stay.

About right?

---

Aside from hctra not having anything to do with the fort bend toll road...Fort Bend toll road authority operates the FB toll road as well as the Grand Parkway toll road from 59 - Westpark and the Westpark toll road from 1464 - Grand Parkway

Hctra owns the piece of fort bend toll inside Harris county

quote:

---

http://abc13.com/archive/8674303/

---

Focusing on that last sentence is the key. They never "lied" when they proposed the toll roads, they just purposely misled the idealistic voter. They see this last sentnece and mark it in their minds that one day these toll roads will become free, but anyone with an ounce of understanding how government works knows this will never be the case. There will always be costs to operate these roads and as a result will never be "free" since municipalites, TxDOT, etc dont have the funds or capacity to manage them.

However as mentioned above, +1 on keeping them toll roads. I can't imagine what these things would be like if they were free!

quote:

---

Hctra owns the piece of fort bend toll inside Harris county

---

Good call...much like the tip of the Westpark that runs into Fort Bend county

quote:

---

They never "lied" when they proposed the toll roads, they just purposely misled

---

That is simply not acceptable.

The only way toll roads would have been an acceptable way to finance more roads is if our government entities kept their promises. I'm OK paying a toll to finance a specific road in my area to make transportation better. However, a toll road now means you have accepted a very high and permanent transportation tax on your area of town. You doing that just allows other areas to free ride off of your paying more for roads forever and ever.

I's like a to see a state-wide candidate propose raising the gas tax and using some of the funds to eliminate the tolling entities that have abused the public trust. Along with it an amendment that only allows tolling entities to be created only for specific roads with the understanding that the tolls go away when the initial construction is paid for and the TXDot, counties, etc. pick up maintenance on these transportation gifts at that time.

quote:

---

quote:

---

They never "lied" when they proposed the toll roads, they just purposely misled

---

That is simply not acceptable.

---

100% agree, but when has that ever stopped them? Just another example of the juice being worth the squeeze with back door politics.

Just wait until someone decides toll roads discriminate against minorities or the poor and they get subsidized to drive free while you pay more.

For the record, I did protest via letters when they proposed making hwy 6 to cstat a new toll road...

quote:

---

Just wait until someone decides toll roads discriminate against minorities or the poor and they get subsidized to drive free while you pay more.

For the record, I did protest via letters when they proposed making hwy 6 to cstat a new toll road...

---

They already give free tolls to veterans!