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Responsible development and water needs

2,500 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by SteveBott
Tejas Ag
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1:33a, 7/31/23
AG
I am a pro business, capitalistic entrepreneur. However, at what point does Austin, and the surrounding municipalities start having serious conversations about area growth?

Moving into drought restrictions across area. More and more developments in the works, commercial and residential alike. Current neighborhoods having water cut off for irrigation and filling pools while next door new subdivision that are for sale have full green lawns for their open houses to project that everything is great.

- New 54 hole golf course plus multi thousand home housing development around Lake Travis green lit
- Surf park approved,
- more skyscrapers than any city in Texas in planning
- Samsung semi conductor chip plant in Taylor needs massive water needs for cooling.
- city of Georgetown just put in an Economic Development office in South Korea to attract more business like Samsung plant.

And those are just a few examples

Lake Travis is at 48% and dropping and municipalities like Leander are sending a fraction of what they used to sell to neighboring communities.

No one wants to freeze growth as it's bad for business and PR but unless we are going to find a way to make our homes all use recirculated toilet water and a new desalination plant on the coast to fill up the highland lakes… how is this all going to play out? I grew up in the panhandle and Boone Pickens was considered a nut 20 years ago when he started buying water rights up to eventually pipe down state because water would become the next oil. It didn't materialize "yet" but something will have to happen.

Sure, town lake gets to stay level so it fools you into thinking things are better than they are but drop that puppy 48% and have it look like a bar ditch next to downtown and things would get real, real quick.

Is the thought just an ambitious one of hopeful delirium? Rain will come, we'll figure it out. Keep building in mean time?

I hate bureaucratic overreach but there is no model that supports this much growth with this taxed resource we all need to live called water.

It's not just an Austin thing, it's a Texas thing. Some growth models project by 2100 Texas will have the 3 largest metros in the USA - Houston, DFW and Austin

The great thing about our state that has made it so attractive for growth is also creating our greatest threat in coming years. I pray that this new El Niño weather pattern absolutely dumps buckets in the fall and winter and the lakes are recharged and aquifers full as a tick but I honestly am curious what others think about all this.
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TRD-Ferguson
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5:58a, 7/31/23
AG
It seems like the allure of money is all consuming to all parties at this point. Yet if you point out the obvious, depleted water resources, you'll likely be considered a left wing, anti capitalism nut case. There ought to be a way to grow responsibly or have the knowledge to say enough is enough. I'm not hopeful either will happen.
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tamc93
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8:28a, 7/31/23
AG
You asked for government overreach and they were ahead of you. You thought things were expensive before, now collection, treatment, and/or dual plumbing systems will be installed on many projects:


https://www.austintexas.gov/page/water-benchmarking

Purpose

The Water Benchmarking Application provides an opportunity for Site Plan applicants to assess how water will be used within their development projects and identify water reuse/water conservation opportunities before construction begins.

Who Must Comply?

The Water Benchmarking Application is required for all commercial, multi-family and mixed-use Site Plan Applications submitted on or after December 1st, 2021.
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Complete Idiot
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9:15a, 7/31/23
Who would manage area wide water requirements if not government?


I agree with the OP, and have had this concern for a long time. So long I wonder if my worry is unnecessary, but it seemed close to reality when back in 2011/2012 they had to lower the pipe that drew water from Lake Travis, for a very large number of consumers, because the lake level was approaching a point the existing intake might go dry. Now they are building an intake that will draw from the very deepest part of the lake - great, that maximizes what you can draw from the lake, but the real concern is that total water supply to all sources is outstripped by total water draw by consumer demand. It seems at some point there will be a drought that really catch everyone off guard.

If you go to Water Data for Texas website, you can see the Lake Travis and Buchanan levels have had some of their lowest points over last half century being hit in the past ten years - and the duration it stayed low was longer than prior droughts. But that's just 50 years, it's hard to see it's temporary and the prior 40 years were "normal" and we'll get back to that soon, or if perhaps this is some 200 year cycle, outside of what humans have recorded before, and we might be in trouble.

LCRA holds a lot of water upstream of Travis and even Buchanan, I think in an emergency scenario quite a bit could be done to keep drinking water flowing to the greater Austin area. The amount lost to evaporation in the system greatly exceeds human use (iirc) and the amount we use for irrigation, that could be shut off if needed, probably outstrips what we use for household water.

I think all of East Texas has excess water capacity and water could be pipelined here before needing desalination.
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TRD-Ferguson
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In reply to Complete Idiot • 11:18a, 7/31/23
AG
City of Georgetown is planning to pipe in water from the east. Article in the paper said it will come from an aquifer near Giddings if I remember correctly.
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MouthBQ98
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2:41p, 7/31/23
AG
Some cedar needs clearing if it is not going to be able to be burned back periodically as would happen naturally, within the recharge zone.

For the love of all things holy, quit trying to plant tropical lawns and gardens and plants in a semi-arid climate. Landscape with native stuff that can tolerate the summer drought and the winter freeze.

Screw golf. This isn't Scotland. We don't have natural lawns and greens.

A little more care with water capture to help optimize aquifer recharge opportunities would be good, with regards to storm water design.

I believe the Samsung plant is drawing water from the old Sandow mine, which has huge springs in some of the lakes that were resulting from the excavation, or at least from the same sand formation.

We're all going to have to be a little more efficient with water as time goes on.
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Complete Idiot
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In reply to MouthBQ98 • 2:54p, 7/31/23
Article about Samsung water

https://www.statesman.com/story/business/technology/2022/08/01/if-samsungs-texas-expansion-happens-where-will-the-water-come-from/65385569007/
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SteveBott
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5:16p, 7/31/23
AG
Counties have almost no power to regulate growth which drives water demand. As long as the Texas Legislature denies them that ability developers will continue to build especially the Hill Country. You will see very little change at least in the near future.

The cities can and do regulate water use but they dont do a great job and only do anything unless its crisis management. Their voters will throw officials out of office if they get too aggressive.

Round Rock is in Stage one which means you can water twice a week. That is enough for St. Augustine; but it can be abused by automated sprinkler systems late at night. Some folks are completely ignorant on proper water management. And they rarely learn better. . .
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Lynch
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11:20a, 8/1/23
I think LCRA getting out of the water and sewer business hasn't helped.

And we should ask, what have all these municipalities done with the tens of millions of dollars paid by developers and builders for impact fees. Have they been updating their infrastructure? Or do they just stick those funds in the general fund and spend them on pet projects?
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tamc93
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In reply to Lynch • 11:27a, 8/1/23
AG
Lynch said:
I think LCRA getting out of the water and sewer business hasn't helped.

And we should ask, what have all these municipalities done with the tens of millions of dollars paid by developers and builders for impact fees. Have they been updating their infrastructure? Or do they just stick those funds in the general fund and spend them on pet projects?


I love rhetorical questions.
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Aggietaco
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11:49a, 8/2/23
AG
For those that don't venture to the OB, there is a similar, lengthy discussion on the same topic taking place.

While I don't like forced cost increases from big brother in terms of enhanced private infrastructure systems, I do agree with the general direction of the intent. You have to make people pay for the true value of water. If you want the general public to value water, you have to make it valuable.

I think huge increases in the tiered pricing of water to residents and a crackdown on abusive commercial properties is the only way a large portion of the population is going to care about future water scarcity. Use the increase funds provided by people who care more about their green yards than their cash to make improvements to the existing utilities so we can stop leaking so much drinking water along the mains.

I also agree with the cedar/juniper eradication, and maybe funds from the new water pricing can help fund that on public land, but there's no way to force any of the private land to follow suit in an economically feasible manner.
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tamc93
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12:00p, 8/2/23
AG
Why don't we start with simple construction of new reservoirs to harvest the water from rainfall events?

Why not dredge out existing reservoirs for replacing/adding capacity?

All of these can likely done while maintaining the same water rights that people have.
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SteveBott
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12:11p, 8/2/23
AG
New lakes have been proposed for years and either shot down or drawn in legal messes for decades. It can be done but incredibly hard to do. Folks just don't like taking, and that's what you have to do, of private property in Texas.

Tiered pricing is much easier to do.
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SteveBott
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12:14p, 8/2/23
AG
Also that had/have govt subsidized cedar removal. I believe the program paid half. Buddy did this on 170 acres east of Johnson City. He had three springs come back to life. Just folks don't want to pay even for half. It was pricey even then.
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tamc93
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In reply to SteveBott • 12:15p, 8/2/23
AG
So we do nothing and complain on TexAgs....same thing every drought.

Now do Electricity....
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Aggietaco
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In reply to tamc93 • 1:00p, 8/2/23
AG
I'm way more inclined to vote for higher tiered pricing versus stealing someones land to build a new reservoir, if it even came to that.

Unless you have a few thousand acres on the CO that you're willing to donate to the cause?

I think more of the issue is maintaining underground water storage vs creating more above ground storage for rainfall events.
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txags92
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In reply to tamc93 • 9:27a, 8/7/23
AG
Why don't we start with simple construction of new reservoirs to harvest the water from rainfall events?

There is no such thing as a "simple construction of a new reservoir" in Texas. A new reservoir means taking private property from people who have in many cases owned it in their family for over 100 years. It means flooding areas that may contain endangered species or unique historical properties. And it means taking water that is already owned via existing water rights by downstream users whoe will not consent to having it contained and used by somebody else instead without getting paid. Not to mention what the dam will do to the downstream ecosystem and the lawsuits that will tie up any plan for decades. Nothing about it will be simple.

Why not dredge out existing reservoirs for replacing/adding capacity?

This sounds good in practice, but the existing silt load in most of the reservoirs where it matters is not enough to make a meaningful dent in the volume of the reservoir in places where it is needed. The act of dredging native in place soil to deepen the reservoir would be extremely difficult, particularly in central Texas, where most of the native material is limestone bedrock. This will also likely be tied up in courts for years and years by environmental and fishing interests.

All of these can likely done while maintaining the same water rights that people have.

I have no idea how you think that is an accurate statement. Every river is Texas is pretty much fully appropriated to existing water rights users. In most cases, there are more claimed water rights on them than there is actual flow. So even if you ran them dry (which you can't due to minimum flow requirements on most of them), you couldn't supply all of the users who have claimed a right. Some of those users only get to claim water during heavy flood years, but they have lined up to claim them in case anybody ahead of them relinquishes or loses their rights. So in order to fill the new reservoir, you would have to dam up and contain the downstream flow of the river, which you could only do with water that is above and beyond that which is claimed by all the other rights owners. Look at Medina Lake, Lake Travis, etc. They are all drained down and draining fast. They get full these days once in a blue moon, and about once a decade we get enough rain to cause us to have to release excess flow for flooding reasons. That is the unappropriated flow you would be trying to capture with a new reservoir. You can't operate a reliable water supply from a reservoir that is only allowed to capture water about once every 10 years or so.
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txags92
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In reply to Aggietaco • 9:31a, 8/7/23
AG
Aggietaco said:
I'm way more inclined to vote for higher tiered pricing versus stealing someones land to build a new reservoir, if it even came to that.

Unless you have a few thousand acres on the CO that you're willing to donate to the cause?

I think more of the issue is maintaining underground water storage vs creating more above ground storage for rainfall events.
Keeping more water in the aquifer or finding ways to recharge more into the aquifer is far and away more preferable to new reservoir construction. I feel like if we can find a bridge that will get us from today through about 2035, we will have access to new cheaper and safe nuke plants that can be used to run desalination plants. At that point, we can manage water use much more easily. Until then, we need to keep enough water in the aquifer to keep the springs flowing, and to me that means either stopping new development (which won't happen) or stopping wasteful use of water on non-beneficial uses (which includes things like green residential lawns, road medians, subidivision water features, etc.
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tamc93
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In reply to txags92 • 10:03a, 8/7/23
AG
So we do nothing at all like we have for the last 100 years.
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txags92
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In reply to tamc93 • 10:08a, 8/7/23
AG
No. There is more to water management and planning than building new reservoirs. Read the post right above yours where I talked about other possibilities.
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Ferg
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2:59p, 8/7/23
Xeriscaping instead of lawns for yards?
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SteveBott
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3:13p, 8/7/23
AG
Xeriscaping would help. But it looks terrible. Sorry it just does. Looks like a rock garden or worse. High tolerant grass should be mandated on new construction. Grass that need no or very little water and same for landscaping. Conservation in the house as well should continue but we have done the easy stuff like toilets.

No way to get around the growth have had and will have. You cant prevent. Austin tried and failed as expected. Those around awhile will remember SOS trying to stop development in the SW corridor. Just created a boom north in Cedar Park/Leander/Round Rock and Georgetown and south to Kyle and Buda.
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PabloSerna
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9:02p, 8/7/23
AG
There are ways we can improve, but it will take a mind-shift approach to water not unlike what Australia did during their massive 12 year drought from 1997-2009. (LINK) to a very good article. We have to stop labeling any attempt to conserve water as "leftist" or worse. Probably will take a massive event to push us into the right mindset.

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SteveBott
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9:08p, 8/7/23
AG
Our society only makes big changes during a crisis. Just like the idiots in Washington get the things done.
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Apache
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7:08a, 8/8/23
AG
Quote:
perhaps this is some 200 year cycle, outside of what humans have recorded before, and we might be in trouble.
Krause Springs has the oldest verified trees in Texas, Bald Cypress around 500 years old.
Using tree ring data, scientists have determined there have been periods of drought far longer & more severe than the "drought of record" in the 50's in Texas.

Seawater Desalinization via Nuclear Power plants pumping water all across Texas will be necessary to accommodate future projected growth. Land use can band-aid us for a while, but long term Desal will be the only option.
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TxAg20
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In reply to Tejas Ag • 9:25p, 8/12/23
AG
Tejas Ag said:
I am a pro business, capitalistic entrepreneur. However, at what point does Austin, and the surrounding municipalities start having serious conversations about area growth?

Moving into drought restrictions across area. More and more developments in the works, commercial and residential alike. Current neighborhoods having water cut off for irrigation and filling pools while next door new subdivision that are for sale have full green lawns for their open houses to project that everything is great.

- New 54 hole golf course plus multi thousand home housing development around Lake Travis green lit
- Surf park approved,
- more skyscrapers than any city in Texas in planning
- Samsung semi conductor chip plant in Taylor needs massive water needs for cooling.
- city of Georgetown just put in an Economic Development office in South Korea to attract more business like Samsung plant.

And those are just a few examples

Lake Travis is at 48% and dropping and municipalities like Leander are sending a fraction of what they used to sell to neighboring communities.

No one wants to freeze growth as it's bad for business and PR but unless we are going to find a way to make our homes all use recirculated toilet water and a new desalination plant on the coast to fill up the highland lakes… how is this all going to play out? I grew up in the panhandle and Boone Pickens was considered a nut 20 years ago when he started buying water rights up to eventually pipe down state because water would become the next oil. It didn't materialize "yet" but something will have to happen.

Sure, town lake gets to stay level so it fools you into thinking things are better than they are but drop that puppy 48% and have it look like a bar ditch next to downtown and things would get real, real quick.

Is the thought just an ambitious one of hopeful delirium? Rain will come, we'll figure it out. Keep building in mean time?

I hate bureaucratic overreach but there is no model that supports this much growth with this taxed resource we all need to live called water.

It's not just an Austin thing, it's a Texas thing. Some growth models project by 2100 Texas will have the 3 largest metros in the USA - Houston, DFW and Austin

The great thing about our state that has made it so attractive for growth is also creating our greatest threat in coming years. I pray that this new El Niño weather pattern absolutely dumps buckets in the fall and winter and the lakes are recharged and aquifers full as a tick but I honestly am curious what others think about all this.

There's plenty of water, it's just not always in the right places. At some price, it becomes economical to move water to the right places or treat seawater. Saudi Arabia and Israel desal water for ~$1.60 per thousand gallons. Double that price to $3.20 per thousand and you're at $160/month for 50,000 gallons of water. That's easily enough to cover the needs of a family of 4, keep a normal-sized swimming pool full, and keep a 1/2 acre yard looking nice in the desert.

I won't lose sleep if I have to pay $3.20 or even $5 per thousand gallons. My larger concern is how long it will take our bureacratic govt's to respond to lack of water in a given area. Private industry does a good job of moving other commodities like oil and gas to where they're needed. The same mdistream companies could easily handle fresh water, and even desal, if needed, but I doubt they would touch it since the counter-parties would be govt's and Joe Q. Public which will always find ways to villify private industry if they end up making a profit.
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SteveBott
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In reply to TxAg20 • 9:29p, 8/12/23
AG
If the ROI is good enough someone will do it.
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