School choice topic

4,228 Views | 34 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by ukbb2003
cavscout96
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12:13p, 5/15/23
AG

Since the request was made for context and local connections....... this is about a month old



https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/article_705ee2da-d577-11ed-9066-5b50f0967ff3.html

Quote:
In budget deliberations on Thursday, the Republican-controlled Texas House of Representatives voted to ban state dollars from funding vouchers, Education Savings Accounts and other school choice programs.

Quote:
Amendment 45 filed by state Rep. Abel Herrero, D-Robstown, which had six cosponsors, including four Republicans, states, "Money appropriated by this Act may not be used to pay for or support a school voucher, including an education savings account, tax credit scholarship program, or a grant or other similar program through which a child may use state money for nonpublic primary or secondary education."

Quote:
the 24 Republicans who voted with Democrats against funding ESAs were Reps. Steve Allison, Trent Ashby, Ernest Bailes, Keith Bell, DeWayne Burns, Travis Clardy, Drew Darby, Charlie Geren, Justina Holland, Kyle Kacal, Ken King, John Kuempel, Stan Lambert, Brooks Landgraf, Andy Murr, Angelia Orr, Four Price, John Raney, Glenn Rogers, Hugh Shine, Reggie Smith, David Spiller and Gary VanDeaver.


#shockedNOTshocked
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wareagle044
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1:05p, 5/15/23
iisanaggie
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1:18p, 5/15/23
AG
Maybe if our state adequately funded public education; quit instituting mandates without funding them; abolished high-stakes testing that is developmentally inappropriate and not a valid measure of learned skills; maybe if they let local ISD's have more leeway in providing what their students need to be successful...then maybe parents wouldn't need to be looking at other options for their children's education
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BCSWguru
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1:25p, 5/15/23
mo' government, mo' problems. those in power dont want choice and they dang sure dont want the plebes' kids going to private schools with their kids.
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AG81
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In reply to iisanaggie • 4:41p, 5/15/23
AG
iisanaggie said:
Maybe if our state adequately funded public education; quit instituting mandates without funding them; abolished high-stakes testing that is developmentally inappropriate and not a valid measure of learned skills; maybe if they let local ISD's have more leeway in providing what their students need to be successful...then maybe parents wouldn't need to be looking at other options for their children's education


This is a funding issue? Then you wouldn't mind letting parents take their "inadequate" funding to the school of their choice. Your premise is false. Were it true then within each school district every school would perform the same. They never will until parents get to control where their children get an education. I have yet to hear a rational argument why parents shouldn't have a choice where their kids get their education.

To put a finer point on it, go look at the State Accountability scores for just the elementary schools in the Bryan ISD. You see that most have a grade of C, a few a B, one an A. They all receive the same funding. So why shouldn't a parent with a child in C school in the Bryan ISD be allowed to take their money to an A school?
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Hornbeck
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5:00p, 5/15/23
AG
Ever notice how the prisons don't have to have bake sales to raise money?

Yeah, me too.
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Bucketrunner
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5:14p, 5/15/23
We are one of the most poorly represented areas of the state.


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AG81
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In reply to Hornbeck • 5:46p, 5/15/23
AG
Hornbeck said:
Ever notice how the prisons don't have to have bake sales to raise money?

Yeah, me too.


What an intellectually bankrupt comparison. You should be embarrassed by it. Instead, you're going to try and defend it, further embarrassing yourself.
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Hornbeck
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In reply to AG81 • 6:03p, 5/15/23
AG
I could care less what some old fart yammering on TexAgs thinks about my opinions. So, wrong.
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PS3D
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In reply to iisanaggie • 6:47p, 5/15/23
iisanaggie said:
Maybe if our state adequately funded public education; quit instituting mandates without funding them; abolished high-stakes testing that is developmentally inappropriate and not a valid measure of learned skills; maybe if they let local ISD's have more leeway in providing what their students need to be successful...then maybe parents wouldn't need to be looking at other options for their children's education
I guarantee you that Houston ISD probably gets more money than any other district in the state and look how they turned out.
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iisanaggie
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9:17p, 5/15/23
AG
Let me clarify what I mean by underfunding. It is not a dollar amount issue necessarily. Things like facilities, new construction, teacher pay, athletic funding rules, etc. have an incredible amount of bureaucratic junk that ties the hands of local districts. There is also the issue of mandates that come down from the state with no additional funding given to implement them. Additionally, the use of property taxes to primarily fund public schools is broken.

I know that private and parochial schools have a place. I have no problem with parents utilizing those. I just don't think that public money should be transferred to them. When you start taking government money, you are opening up your organization to government oversight. If I choose to send my child to a private school that can do things differently than a public school or homeschool, I don't want the government to then come in and tell them or our family what we can and cannot do.

The school accountability and grading system is another beast altogether. This ties directly into the legislative mandates that have caused the high-stakes nature of STAAR testing. It is a common practice for certain districts to artificially manipulate the data by doing unethical (in my opinion) practices that do not have the best interests of the students in mind. I cannot say that I blame them either because they want their "incentives" from the state.

The bottom line is that I feel that the entire system is broken. I know some think that vouchers will be a great solution. However, if I want the rest of the society to be able to attend their local school and have all that they need to be successful, then the voucher program will not achieve that and will actually make it harder to achieve that goal. Public education is here to stay in our country whether we like it or not. My hope as a citizen is to root for its success for the betterment of our society.
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jeffk
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7:18a, 5/16/23
AG
The governmental strings that are going to accompany these school voucher systems being instituted are going to make some heads spin for sure.
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AG81
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In reply to PS3D • 7:45a, 5/16/23
AG
PS3D said:
iisanaggie said:
Maybe if our state adequately funded public education; quit instituting mandates without funding them; abolished high-stakes testing that is developmentally inappropriate and not a valid measure of learned skills; maybe if they let local ISD's have more leeway in providing what their students need to be successful...then maybe parents wouldn't need to be looking at other options for their children's education
I guarantee you that Houston ISD probably gets more money than any other district in the state and look how they turned out.


Simply false. On a per capita basis, Dallas ISD and San Antonio ISD get more money. Austin ISD gets almost double. For perspective, both Bryan and College Station ISDs receive less than Houston ISD. Navasota ISD receives double what Bryan and College Station do per capita The fact of the matter is there is no correlation between money spent per student and student outcomes.
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texAZtea
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7:49a, 5/16/23
AG
Until someone posts a source with some data, this is just a competition of who can repeat their opinion more times.
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double b
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9:53a, 5/16/23
AG
...
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jeffk
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10:17a, 5/16/23
AG
New article published this week about research link between funding and student performance: https://www.chalkbeat.org/2023/5/16/23724474/school-funding-research-studies-hanushek-does-money-matter

And the full text of the research review the article is based on: http://hanushek.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/Handel%2BHanushek%202023%20NBER%20w30769_0.pdf

Long story short, funding matters and how it's leveraged matters too. But also there's a ton of variability in student learning that can't be accounted for by funding... or even schools for that matter. Human beings are complicated and helping them learn is actually pretty difficulty.
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Bucketrunner
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In reply to double b • 10:27a, 5/16/23
double b said:
All I know is that our local state representative voted against School Choice despite choosing to send their kids to private school.


Got elected because he is an Ag. Totally plastic person.
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AG81
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In reply to jeffk • 11:10a, 5/16/23
AG
jeffk said:
New article published this week about research link between funding and student performance: https://www.chalkbeat.org/2023/5/16/23724474/school-funding-research-studies-hanushek-does-money-matter

And the full text of the research review the article is based on: http://hanushek.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/Handel%2BHanushek%202023%20NBER%20w30769_0.pdf

Long story short, funding matters and how it's leveraged matters too. But also there's a ton of variability in student learning that can't be accounted for by funding... or even schools for that matter. Human beings are complicated and helping them learn is actually pretty difficulty.


You neglected to mention that this isn't a research project that showed a correlation between student support and money. It's one person's review of other studies.

Fine, don't believe me. The data for the State of Texas is available for all to review. Go look at the per capita spending by district, even within a district, and compare that against school performance. It is a complicated issue. Simply throwing money at the problem doesn't solve it. There is ZERO data to the contrary.
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BCSWguru
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11:15a, 5/16/23
we sent man to the moon with people educated as kids in one room school shacks and minimal resources. its not the money, yet we keep pouring more into it. people are tired of it and they all want to keep the status quo. its comical at this point.
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Robert L. Peters
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In reply to AG81 • 12:06p, 5/16/23
AG81 said:
Hornbeck said:
Ever notice how the prisons don't have to have bake sales to raise money?

Yeah, me too.


What an intellectually bankrupt comparison. You should be embarrassed by it. Instead, you're going to try and defend it, further embarrassing yourself.


It was actually a pretty good comparison.
What you say, Paper Champion? I'm gonna beat you like a dog, a dog, you hear me!
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TyHolden
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In reply to BCSWguru • 12:08p, 5/16/23
AG
LSCSN said:
we sent man to the moon with people educated as kids in one room school shacks and minimal resources. its not the money, yet we keep pouring more into it. people are tired of it and they all want to keep the status quo. its comical at this point.
this part is still debatable
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jeffk
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In reply to AG81 • 12:09p, 5/16/23
AG
Did you click the second link? There's a lengthy list of studies looking at the relationship between funding and student outcomes reviewed starting on page 22 of that document. The tables at the end are helpful as well.

I think we both agree that school improvement is complex and you're right, "throwing money at it" isn't the proper approach. That said, funding isn't inconsequential and many voucher programs will in fact reduce the funding of public schools, which I think provides a tangible societal good at local levels.
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Hornbeck
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In reply to TyHolden • 3:03p, 5/16/23
AG
We sent a man to the moon with a German Rocket Engineer who designed the V-2.
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George Costanza
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3:44p, 5/16/23
Will private schools have to deal with the mandates, rules, accountability systems, testing requirements, etc if they get public funding?
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hereford
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In reply to double b • 4:27p, 5/16/23
AG
double b,

You're mad the state representative in question paid for his kids to go to private school without a state subsidy? What seems off about that argument?? Why should someone who can afford to pay the tuition be compensated to send his kids to private school? I'm not sure you understand the point of a voucher system.

Part of the reason both representatives voted against the bill (per the comments they made prior to the vote) was because it was poorly written and wouldn't accomplish what the stated intention of the bill was. Not uncommon for bills in the Texas Legislature but now I am getting bombarded by text from groups that are mad about it. The lobbyists just want their way, to heck with the consequences.

Another problem that school funding this session is not addressing is the impact of the property tax system (and its associated restrictions) and declining state contribution for public schools. The groups getting hit the hardest are the smallest school districts. A few have already had to consolidate with nearby districts and several others are considering it. While I would prefer some districts to consolidate because the duplicate what another nearby district does, most of the consolidations for financial purposes are going to incovenience the students due to the distance between the schools (e. g. districts in West Texas and the Panhandle).
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dallasiteinsa02
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4:38p, 5/16/23
The problem is the math. For example, say it takes $12,000 per district to educate a student. It makes sense that if they lose $8,000 in vouchers and the student that they are coming out ahead $4,000. The problem is that the in-classroom cost is less than $8,000. It is all the administration that makes up the rest. They can't afford the level of admin with vouchers.
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nwspmp
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In reply to dallasiteinsa02 • 5:09p, 5/16/23
dallasiteinsa02 said:
The problem is the math. For example, say it takes $12,000 per district to educate a student. It makes sense that if they lose $8,000 in vouchers and the student that they are coming out ahead $4,000. The problem is that the in-classroom cost is less than $8,000. It is all the administration that makes up the rest. They can't afford the level of admin with vouchers.
It's not 1:1 though. A school building designed for the needs of 1,000 students can't cut off 20% of the cost if 200 students leave. There are certain fixed costs and certain variable costs per student. They can turn out the lights and maybe find a way to reduce the energy from HVAC in those areas, and cull the teachers, but the building is a fixed cost. The support staff (janitors, office staff, etc) aren't also able to just reduce just the same percentage as the students who've left.

And that's not factoring in volume discounts; the cost per student is higher typically when the student count is lower. The cafeteria buying milk for 1,000 students at $0.50/carton versus 800 students at $0.65/carton.
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PS3D
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In reply to AG81 • 8:55p, 5/16/23
AG81 said:
PS3D said:
iisanaggie said:
Maybe if our state adequately funded public education; quit instituting mandates without funding them; abolished high-stakes testing that is developmentally inappropriate and not a valid measure of learned skills; maybe if they let local ISD's have more leeway in providing what their students need to be successful...then maybe parents wouldn't need to be looking at other options for their children's education
I guarantee you that Houston ISD probably gets more money than any other district in the state and look how they turned out.


Simply false. On a per capita basis, Dallas ISD and San Antonio ISD get more money. Austin ISD gets almost double. For perspective, both Bryan and College Station ISDs receive less than Houston ISD. Navasota ISD receives double what Bryan and College Station do per capita The fact of the matter is there is no correlation between money spent per student and student outcomes.
I was being flippant in my response but the fact remains--you could give schools a whole lot of money and many ISDs like HISD still are a complete dumpster fire from the top down.
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Hornbeck
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2:16p, 5/17/23
AG
So, I think this bill is going to wind up dying before it gets to the governor's desk, but I think he has a mind to force them back into session over it. There was a story on it yesterday on the Houston news.
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double b
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In reply to hereford • 3:13p, 5/17/23
AG
I don't hold any grudge against our local representative for being able to afford private education for their child. However, as a public servant, their role is to represent and support our interests. I also strongly believe in allowing the market to determine success and failure, including within the education sector. If it was a poorly written bill, then a better effort should have been made to strengthen it; otherwise, there are plenty of excuses for "why" things don't get done.

Having spent a significant amount of time in the government sector, I have personally witnessed how funds are often squandered, with purchases made or expenses justified simply because there is room in the budget. Implementing Education Savings Accounts (ESAs) would compel school districts to make tough choices and prioritize their efforts on providing essential services that cater to the needs of their clients.

If an ESA policy were to be enacted, I'm uncertain whether I would opt to send my children to private school. Currently, I choose not to do so because I believe in the value of public education. My family has consciously decided to enroll our kids in public schools and contribute to finding solutions to the challenges that arise. However, I acknowledge that not every family has the same opportunities as ours, and I believe it is crucial to empower them with the ability to select the educational environment that best meets their child's needs.
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double b
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2:00p, 5/25/23
AG
Texas Senate passes revamped school funding bill in last-minute bid to implement voucher program

Anyone who is interested in seeing this pass, you may want to call your local state representative.
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BluHorseShu
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In reply to double b • 2:14p, 5/25/23
AG
double b said:
Texas Senate passes revamped school funding bill in last-minute bid to implement voucher program

Anyone who is interested in seeing this pass, you may want to call your local state representative.
I think there are vocal people, but this whole issue hasn't raised to the level of the majority contacting their reps. Alot of people are under the impression that either 1) People in rural districts will get the short end of the stick if it passes bc they're aren't other choices in their areas and/or 2) Even if they receive vouchers and would choose to look at a different school, the vouchers still are nearly enough to cover the cost of private schools. Not to mention any additional sports/activity costs.
I would love it if it passed now bc I still have 2 in private school and we're by no means wealthy....(we are blessed though )
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CS78
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3:05p, 5/25/23
Does this mean our kids might get to go to the schools that we actually live by?
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BluHorseShu
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In reply to CS78 • 4:34p, 5/25/23
AG
CS78 said:
Does this mean our kids might get to go to school at the schools that we actually live by?
Sure.. And it means all the other kids from the opposite side of town can all go to that same school too....which means they'll need to enlarge the campus...which will need funds...which will come from more vouchers...easy peasy
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ukbb2003
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7:55p, 5/25/23
I don't know the ins and outs of this thing yet, but I do find the billboard north of town pretty disgusting. I don't recall the exact wording, but something to the effect of if the bills passes, it will "turn off our Friday Night Lights."
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