High speed rail projected to LOSE $500 million/year

3,894 Views | 27 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by aggiepublius
w8liftr
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8:55a, 2/13/17
I saw this quote on the Politics board and thought it was appropriate to discuss here in Aggieland.

"In spite of their large and growing populations, Dallas and Houston are poster children for big cities where high-speed rail has no chance of succeeding without public funding unless land use and transit patterns change dramatically.

http://reason.org/news/show/texas-high-speed-rail-caution

There is a pdf of the full report on that site that calculates Texas Central Rail having annual deficits of $500 million for their first 40 years of operation and their claim of "no taxpayer funding" is a falsehood since they are applying for government guaranteed loans to pay for construction.

Does Texas Central Rail remind anyone of the Simpsons Monorail episode?"
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isitjustme
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9:55a, 2/13/17
AG
Just perused the report and it basically confirms most of what I thought - namely that there is no way they can get enough ridership to make this HSR project economically or financially feasible without large amounts of tax-funded subsidies. It's a bad idea and no public funds nor publicly guaranteed loans should be involved.
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veritas47
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In reply to Stupe • 10:21a, 2/13/17
Stupe said:
Being on a list is not being "green-lighted" and that project isn't requesting federal funds at this point.

Actually, TCR is requesting federally guaranteed loans to finance construction, so yes, they are, in fact, requesting federal funds, and we, as taxpayers, will be on the hook for $15-20 billion when this boondoggle goes belly-up.

Texas' version of Solyndra.
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Joe Schillaci 48
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10:28a, 2/13/17
AG
I think the Wright brothers used their private funds too.

How did that work out?

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FlyRod
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10:34a, 2/13/17
So many Negative Nancies. The train is coming, and I hope Trumpus himself cuts the ribbon.
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Stupe
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10:58a, 2/13/17
S
Loans are not direct funding.

For the record, I'm completely against that thing being built. It's a waste of money and it's taking private property from Texas landowners by a private company.
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BohunkAg
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In reply to Stupe • 12:20p, 2/13/17
AG
Stupe said:
Loans are not direct funding.

For the record, I'm completely against that thing being built. It's a waste of money and it's taking private property from Texas landowners by a private company.
This is how I feel about it.
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biobioprof
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12:39p, 2/13/17
Since this is the Aggieland board and not the politics board, I just wanted to point out that the maps they are showing on the Texas Central website don't even go through Brazos County.

Why are they called "alignment maps"?
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Oogway
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1:21p, 2/13/17
I believe they are called 'alignment' maps because they said they were trying to use existing right of ways as much as possible i.e. utility corridors etc.
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w8liftr
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In reply to biobioprof • 2:14p, 2/13/17
biobioprof said:
Since this is the Aggieland board and not the politics board, I just wanted to point out that the maps they are showing on the Texas Central website don't even go through Brazos County.
Aren't Madison and Grimes counties included in Aggieland? Or, is Aggieland limited to Bryan and College Station only?

This sounds pretty elitist to us country bumpkins who live across the Navasota River from BCS but work and shop in B/CS.
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w8liftr
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In reply to Stupe • 2:21p, 2/13/17
Stupe said:
Loans are not direct funding.
So whose funds were lost here?-
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/report-taxpayer-loss-due-to-solyndra-may-be-as-high-as-849-million/article/2511398
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oklaunion
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In reply to w8liftr • 2:25p, 2/13/17
w8liftr said:
biobioprof said:
Since this is the Aggieland board and not the politics board, I just wanted to point out that the maps they are showing on the Texas Central website don't even go through Brazos County.
Aren't Madison and Grimes counties included in Aggieland? Or, is Aggieland limited to Bryan and College Station only?

This sounds pretty elitist to us country bumpkins who live across the Navasota River from BCS but work and shop in B/CS.
It makes about as much sense as KBTX giving the Brazos Valley Classroom Champion award to someone in Lovelady. Heck, there are 2 other river drainages between CS and Lovelady that don't feed into the Brazos.
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2:28p, 2/13/17
GSS
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2:42p, 2/13/17
B-CS and the surrounding areas have their own mini-version of an unsuccessful people mover...it's called "Brazos Transit".

Not only do their empty/almost empty buses traverse the streets daily, they also send 30 passenger buses all over the rural area...to potentially pickup one rider. Government subsidies run high (95%) on keeping that debacle in operation.

Yes, occasionally a bus is seen with reasonable ridership...maybe a TX Ave route. But issuing a Uber voucher would likely be both more efficient time-wise, and a LOT less costly to the taxpayer.

The HSR (and taxpayers) may suffer the same situation.
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Stupe
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In reply to w8liftr • 3:30p, 2/13/17
S
Taxpayers. However, that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't direct funding with no expectation of repayment at the time.
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veritas47
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In reply to Stupe • 3:43p, 2/13/17
And our government does such a good job making loans which actually get paid back.

Government loans ought to require tax leins against their top executives and primary investors to ensure loans get paid back and not to give golden parachutes to those who defaulted on the loan.
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biobioprof
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In reply to w8liftr • 3:58p, 2/13/17
w8liftr said:
biobioprof said:
Since this is the Aggieland board and not the politics board, I just wanted to point out that the maps they are showing on the Texas Central website don't even go through Brazos County.
Aren't Madison and Grimes counties included in Aggieland? Or, is Aggieland limited to Bryan and College Station only?

This sounds pretty elitist to us country bumpkins who live across the Navasota River from BCS but work and shop in B/CS.
Its still not going to be useful for travel to Kyle on game days, which I thought some posters had argued for in the past.
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Stupe
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In reply to veritas47 • 4:25p, 2/13/17
S
veritas47 said:
And our government does such a good job making loans which actually get paid back.

Government loans ought to require tax leins against their top executives and primary investors to ensure loans get paid back and not to give golden parachutes to those who defaulted on the loan.
None of that changes that fact that they aren't asking for direct funding.

Again, I'm completely against that project, but saying that they are requesting federal funding is incorrect.
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BQ_90
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In reply to biobioprof • 4:27p, 2/13/17
AG
biobioprof said:
w8liftr said:
biobioprof said:
Since this is the Aggieland board and not the politics board, I just wanted to point out that the maps they are showing on the Texas Central website don't even go through Brazos County.
Aren't Madison and Grimes counties included in Aggieland? Or, is Aggieland limited to Bryan and College Station only?

This sounds pretty elitist to us country bumpkins who live across the Navasota River from BCS but work and shop in B/CS.
Its still not going to be useful for travel to Kyle on game days, which I thought some posters had argued for in the past.
not sure why people can't get that concept. So you live in Houston. You'll have to drive into downtown to catch the train, then you get off in Shiro, which isn't anywhere close to Kyle Field. So you get on bus and drive good 30 minutes to get to campus, assuming zero traffic. Which we know there isn't on gameday right.

Then you get to wait in line to catch bus back to Shiro, then wait for train to take you back to downtown Houston, so you can then drive back to the suburbs where most everyone lives.

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The Original AG 76
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In reply to BQ_90 • 5:18p, 2/13/17
AG
BQ_90 said:
biobioprof said:
w8liftr said:
biobioprof said:
Since this is the Aggieland board and not the politics board, I just wanted to point out that the maps they are showing on the Texas Central website don't even go through Brazos County.
Aren't Madison and Grimes counties included in Aggieland? Or, is Aggieland limited to Bryan and College Station only?

This sounds pretty elitist to us country bumpkins who live across the Navasota River from BCS but work and shop in B/CS.
Its still not going to be useful for travel to Kyle on game days, which I thought some posters had argued for in the past.
not sure why people can't get that concept. So you live in Houston. You'll have to drive into downtown to catch the train, then you get off in Shiro, which isn't anywhere close to Kyle Field. So you get on bus and drive good 30 minutes to get to campus, assuming zero traffic. Which we know there isn't on gameday right.

Then you get to wait in line to catch bus back to Shiro, then wait for train to take you back to downtown Houston, so you can then drive back to the suburbs where most everyone lives.

THIS....
The whole idea of this boondoggle is NOT to stop between Ft Worth and Houston. Acting like a Greyhound commuter bus and stopping for the Kyle Field CON defeats the entire reason for being of this cho-cho.
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EMY92
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In reply to Stupe • 5:18p, 2/13/17
AG
If I ask you for a large loan and you know I have no ability or plans of repaying the loan...is it really a loan or a gift?
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Max06
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In reply to BQ_90 • 5:24p, 2/13/17
AG
BQ_90 said:
biobioprof said:
w8liftr said:
biobioprof said:
Since this is the Aggieland board and not the politics board, I just wanted to point out that the maps they are showing on the Texas Central website don't even go through Brazos County.
Aren't Madison and Grimes counties included in Aggieland? Or, is Aggieland limited to Bryan and College Station only?

This sounds pretty elitist to us country bumpkins who live across the Navasota River from BCS but work and shop in B/CS.
Its still not going to be useful for travel to Kyle on game days, which I thought some posters had argued for in the past.
not sure why people can't get that concept. So you live in Houston. You'll have to drive into downtown to catch the train, then you get off in Shiro, which isn't anywhere close to Kyle Field. So you get on bus and drive good 30 minutes to get to campus, assuming zero traffic. Which we know there isn't on gameday right.

Then you get to wait in line to catch bus back to Shiro, then wait for train to take you back to downtown Houston, so you can then drive back to the suburbs where most everyone lives.

Also, considering this is potentially a massive people mover, there surely will be TSA-esque security to get on board...
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BQ_90
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In reply to Max06 • 5:36p, 2/13/17
AG
Max06 said:
BQ_90 said:
biobioprof said:
w8liftr said:
biobioprof said:
Since this is the Aggieland board and not the politics board, I just wanted to point out that the maps they are showing on the Texas Central website don't even go through Brazos County.
Aren't Madison and Grimes counties included in Aggieland? Or, is Aggieland limited to Bryan and College Station only?

This sounds pretty elitist to us country bumpkins who live across the Navasota River from BCS but work and shop in B/CS.
Its still not going to be useful for travel to Kyle on game days, which I thought some posters had argued for in the past.
not sure why people can't get that concept. So you live in Houston. You'll have to drive into downtown to catch the train, then you get off in Shiro, which isn't anywhere close to Kyle Field. So you get on bus and drive good 30 minutes to get to campus, assuming zero traffic. Which we know there isn't on gameday right.

Then you get to wait in line to catch bus back to Shiro, then wait for train to take you back to downtown Houston, so you can then drive back to the suburbs where most everyone lives.

Also, considering this is potentially a massive people mover, there surely will be TSA-esque security to get on board...
Well I'm sure they'll have the same clear bag policy and security procedures that get you into Kyle I'm sure
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Oogway
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6:34p, 2/13/17
I am not against mass transit. Subways, the Underground, the El, trains, buses; I've had the best and worst of times on them all. But this project is a head scratcher. It has all the elements of a "behind the scenes someone is making money off the taxpayers' dime" plus a nice land grab of land that were it to be sold by the families (or not--their call) in the future would be worth more (maybe a lot more once all the toll roads are completed).
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InMyOpinion
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In reply to w8liftr • 4:37p, 2/15/17
w8liftr said:
biobioprof said:
Since this is the Aggieland board and not the politics board, I just wanted to point out that the maps they are showing on the Texas Central website don't even go through Brazos County.
Aren't Madison and Grimes counties included in Aggieland? Or, is Aggieland limited to Bryan and College Station only?

This sounds pretty elitist to us country bumpkins who live across the Navasota River from BCS but work and shop in B/CS.


Don't take offense - it's really no different than those that feel the need to state they live in "South College Station" vs "College Station".
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aggiepublius
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In reply to Stupe • 10:07p, 2/15/17
AG
Stupe said:
Loans are not direct funding.

For the record, I'm completely against that thing being built. It's a waste of money and it's taking private property from Texas landowners by a private company.
Stupe - Can you point me where they are taking private property? Have they initiated and imminent domain cases yet? All I have seen where ROW purchase so far?
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w8liftr
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9:12a, 2/16/17
TCR filed suit against roughly 40 landowners trying to force them to allow TCR surveyors onto their property under the threat of eminent domain. Of course, TCR could not produce any proof that they had the power of eminent domain and then TCR proceeded to lose every judgement before dropping all other pending suits.

TCR used the threat of property loss through eminent domain or legal expenses due to lengthy lawsuits to bully landowners into accepting their option offers.
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Stupe
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In reply to aggiepublius • 10:54a, 2/17/17
S
aggiepublius said:
Stupe said:
Loans are not direct funding.

For the record, I'm completely against that thing being built. It's a waste of money and it's taking private property from Texas landowners by a private company.
Stupe - Can you point me where they are taking private property? Have they initiated and imminent domain cases yet? All I have seen where ROW purchase so far?
When I said "it's taking private property" I didn't mean that they are actively taking property right now. I meant that if it is built, it will be built by taking private property.

As stated, they have already filed lawsuits to try and get onto private land.
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aggiepublius
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In reply to Stupe • 4:20p, 2/17/17
AG
Thanks for the clarification, I knew about the access suits but hadn't heard anything about them actually taking private property yet and was confused.
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