Ok, which is better?

It's all a matter of preference. You'll have some side with the 25-06 and some side with the .270. I am partial to the 25-06 myself. I own and have owned a lot of guns, but never a .270 for some reason. I know it is an excellent round, but never had the urge to get one. I have even used spent .270 and 30-06 casings, run them through my 25-06 resizer die and fire formed them to have extra brass...

I've gotta take the .270 side. I've got a Remington 700 and a Winchester Model 70 in .270. Never killed a deer with anything else (not for a lack of trying, I just never have seen any good deer while I had a different gun).

I don't have the link off the top of my head, but there is an article on the different cartrages and what their balistics are. Go to google and type search for it, but to answer your question the 7 Mag and 270 are considered by most to be the best all around deer cartrage. I shoot 264 WIN Mag. You need a 26 inch barrel in a 264 to make it meet perform at its peek, but my great grandfather found that with the right load you could shoot one with fantastic accuracy in shorter barrels and with the 26 you can outperform the 270 and even the 7 Mag. It all depends on what you want it for. I think if your looking for a deer cartrage the 270 will work fine hell you can take elk with one, but the 7 Mag gives you a little more stopping power and (I think) shoots flatter unless your shooting a 270 WBY Mag. I've only know 1 guy who shot 25-06 and he loved it. He has taken quite a few nice sized deer with it.

In the end I've shot 270 WBY Mag, 308 Norma Mag, 264 WIN Mag, 300 WBY Mag, and 7mm REM Mag and I like 264 the best which is why I own two of them. My next gun will likely be a 308 Norma Mag.

... oh and I for got my dads Remington 660 243. Which kicks like a M16 but kills much better.

.270- without a question! If you have to ask the question. Your range of performance is markedly increased.

.270 is a good round for just about anything you can hunt in North America.

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Ok, which is better?

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You would have to give your definition of better. They both have their good points.

Well, aren't there more varied factory loads for the .270 available?

I am beginning to lean away from the 25-06, because I did not see enough of a difference between it and the 30-06. None of the ballistic texts I saw compared the same grain rounds, and though the 30-06 was shown with much heavier loads, it was not that far outstripped by the 25-06.

I am still of the opinion that the 30-06 is the best all around gun, and a .270 is a better flat shooter for longer distance stuff. Each also has relatively inexpensive, and varied factory loads.

Bingo! .270 essentially has 130,140 and 160 grain bullets available. If I were guiding a hunter I would be much more comfortable if he had a .270 in his hands vs. a 25-06!

All depends on what's important to you.

If you're looking for a "good, all-around gun", which implies effectiveness on most game in North America, definitely go with the .270.

If, however, you're going to limit your hunting to antelope and whitetail deer and don't anticipate trying to hit/kill anything at ranges greater than 300, perhaps, 350 yards, then the .25-06 isn't a bad candidate.

I've owned several of each and am big fans of both cartridges.

I've shot thousands of rounds of each calibre and have found that, in my particular guns, the .25-06 is an inherently accurate round (kinda like the .308, in that regard).

Also, it has a fairly mild recoil, so you can shoot it all day long at the range and not get "twitchy". My college-age girls both shoot the .25-06 and are deadly with it. Given their small stature, they don't handle the larger calibres quite as well.

There are a lot of turkey on the ranch where I deer hunt and I've found that the accuracy of the .25-06, coupled with the 115 grain Barnes X bullets I use, allow me to kill turkeys at reasonable ranges without messing up much, if any, of the meat.

One last thought. One of the disadvantages of the .25-06 is the largest bullet you can use for reloading is about 120 grains. But, this can also be an advantage if you're using the gun to shoot varmits, cause you can load it with bullets in the 75 to 100 grain range. Depending upon the powder charge you use, you can send the smaller .25 calibre bullets screaming out of the muzzle. It's great, long-range medicine on prairie dogs and the like.

Good point Hap. I meant 150 gr. bullets not 160.

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If, however, you're going to limit your hunting to antelope and whitetail deer and don't anticipate trying to hit/kill anything at ranges greater than 300, perhaps, 350 yards, then the .25-06 isn't a bad candidate.

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I beg to differ here, based on experience. I have killed 2 at 400 yards and beyond with 2 different 25-06's. One right at 400 with a Ruger #1 and the other at 451 with a Remington 700 Sendero, with no problem. I wouldn't hesitate to go out to 500 yards and a little further with either 25-06. The key is, you have to be skilled and practiced enough to shoot at this range. I got my deer last day of the season this year at 278 yards. He didn't even move, just crumpled over. This is with a 100 grain Ballistic Tip.

str8:

Well, I don't have my ballistic program on this computer, so I can't give you specifics regarding the energy of a 115 grain bullet traveling at reduced speed at 400 or 500 yards. But, I'm pretty sure it's "leaking energy" quite badly at those ranges. You get all kinds of arguments about minimum energy (measured in foot-lbs) a bullet should have at a particular range to make a clean kill on a deer-sized animal. But the .25-06 really suffers, energy-wise, when it travels beyond 350 yards.

Not saying you or others haven't made kills on deer at 400 yards plus. Just that it isn't, in my opinion, something people should try to do on a regular basis. Particularly since the chance of hitting the deer in the "boiler room" at 450 yards is pretty slim.

I live in Tulsa and have access to one of the best gun clubs in the nation - Red Castle, located on Skiatook Lake northwest of the city. In addition to a very good bench rest range - featuring both 100 and 200 yard targets - it has a high-powered rifle silhouette range. The silhouette range has made me understand the vagaries of long-range shooting far better than the study of ballistics.

The high-power rifle silhouette range is set up so that you are shooting chicken silhouettes at 200 meters (220 yards), pigs at 300 meters (300 yards), turkeys at 385 meters (400 yards), and rams at 500 meters (550 yards).

Anyone who’s shooting a tuned .25-06 (or other caliber) can readily hit the chickens and pigs. Drop and drift cause the turkeys to be more problematic. And the rams, which are about three feet high at the shoulders, are downright hard to hit, since the drop is so extreme that one must aim 40 or 50 inches, perhaps more, over the back of the target. And a relatively mild crosswind can have a very big effect on such a light bullet, particularly as it slows at the longer range.

The silhouettes are cut from 1/4 or 3/8 inch steel and are free standing on pieces of railroad rail. So, when they’re hit, they fall off the rail.

I’m amazed at how many times I’ve hit the rams, which must weigh about 25 or 30 pounds, and they don’t fall. Since the distance is so great (550 yards), I usually have time to refocus on the target after I fire and can see the black dot suddenly appear when the target is hit (the targets are spray painted each day so that shooters can see where the bullets impact). Then, a second or two later, I hear the sound of the bullet impacting the target. But, the target remains standing. And, unlike you, I use the 115 grain Barnes X, which retains more energy beyond 350 yards than your 100 grain Ballistic Tip.

Like I say, killing deer at 400 yards or more with a .25-06 is possible, but, in my opinion, it’s akin to shooting them at 200 yards with a .22-250. It’ll work, if the shot is placed in just the right spot, but not something to count on.


[This message has been edited by Hap (edited 1/9/2006 3:27p).]

I have my program here. A 117 gr bullet out of a 25-06 with a MV of about 3100 fps will have about 1400 foot pounds of energy remaining at 400yds. This is more than that venerable deer killer the 30-30 has at 100yds. I would say it is adequate. Not saying I could hit what I aimed at at that range.

EDIT I went ahead and ran the 270 with a 130grain bullet at a mv of 3000fps. The retained energy at 400 yds is almost identical to the 25-06 I noted above. The 25-06 has a slight (20 ftlbs) edge.

[This message has been edited by swampstander (edited 1/9/2006 5:10p).]

Hap,
I am definitely not advocating the average hunter to take shots like that with any rifle. One must have had lots of practice, at the range and inthe field, to take shots like that with success. My passion is/are guns and shooting. I especially like shooting at long distances, but I have had a lot of practice. Otherwise, I wouldn't take a shot. There are times if the wind is swirling or gusting, I won't chance it either. All I was saying is that a 25-06 will easily take a whitetail in my part of Texas if you place your shot.

I know nothing about balastics. But, I do know that my Winchester Model 70 .270 shooting Remington Cor-Lokt 130 grain seemed perfectly fine to drop two bucks where they stood at about 75 yards. Cake shots, really, but between my 2 bucks, my dad's buck and 2 does, we have venison a plenty for the next year (and prolly a little to give away... I dropped off two rings of spicy sausage today with the guy who did the add-ons to my truck.)

Sometimes you Win. Sometimes you Lose. Sometimes it Rains.

wadd
the nice thing about 75 yard shots is that you can take most texas deer with anything from a 223 up.

Oh the nice thing about "sometimes it rains" is that you can have so much fun getting pig dirty that even when you mother tears your rear up it was still worth it.

swampstander,

What was the drop of each?

.25-06 is my favorite caliber ever.

...and without being obnoxious and listing them all I'll just say that I've shot pretty much every caliber from a .17 Remington up to a .460 Weatherby (don't shoot that, by the way, unless you're wearing a suit of armor).

Not that you'd know by watching the Aggie Defense, but Speed kills.

HAP

Have you thought of using a scope with targer knobs ? When you shoot at the rams at 550yds you could dial in your drop and hold dead on instead of guessing how much to hold over. You can also adjust for windage.

Here it is. I set them both to a 5 inch kill zone. If you enjoy looking at these sorts of ballistic comparisons I suggest you download the program I use. It is called Point Blank. It is FREE and you can download it at www.HuntingNut.com. I find it to be as accurate as others I have used. I do not mind crunching the numbers for you however.

PS. The 25-06 is my new pet gun. Kills like lightning out to 300yds so far. I am shooting a 100gr sierra boattail. I am thinking of changing bullets to something less frangible however.

Throw in the 270wsm and what do you get?

Here you go. This is with a 140 grain. Again 5in kill zone.



EDIT 3250fps might be a little generous for the 270wsm with a 140 gr projectile.

[This message has been edited by swampstander (edited 1/10/2006 9:14a).]

TORO:

Indeed, I have thought about putting a scope with target knobs on it.

I have several friends and we have a game we play on the high-power rifle silhoette range. It's rules are similar to baseball, in that we play something like 5 or 10 inning games, wherein each participant gets 5 shots per "inning". Each target has a specific point value, with the chickens at 1 pt., pigs are 2 pts., turkeys are 4 pts. and the rams are 7 pts.

The fun part of the game is that sometimes one of the participants will take chances and go for the high targets early, trying to gain a big lead. Or, if you're behind in the later innings, you can try for a few "Hail Marys" and spend your last rounds on the rams trying to play catch-up.

The loser has to buy beer later.

On of my friends has a Leupold target scope with knobs sitting on top of a 7mm-08. He has it dialed to the various distances, so that he simply puts the crosshairs on the target, regardless of the distance, and fires.

It's an unfair advantage, to say the least. Since beer and pride are at stake, the rest of us make him use another rifle, so that it's a competitive contest.

Once I get my daughters out of college, I'm going to invest in one of those scopes or the newer one (can't remember the brand) that I've seen in gun magazines where you have knobs that don't turn, but click in and out.

str8: I wasn't trying to convey criticism. I could tell from your post that you were comfortable with your gun and its performance at longer ranges. I suspect most people who post on this board are more experienced than the average gun owner and hunter. I know too many inexperienced hunters, or experienced hunters who lack common sense, who think they can make unrealistic shots and don't mind throwing lead in hopeless situations.

swamp: Thanks for the ballistics profiles. As I said in my earlier post, depending upon the "expert", somewhere between 900 and 1200 ft-lbs of energy is considered the minimum to assure clean kills on whitetail deer.

[This message has been edited by Hap (edited 1/10/2006 9:07a).]

Get a Horus Vision or Nightforce scope and you don't have to worry about adjusting for the shot. If you haven't used either, they have a grid based reticle system to adjust your aim. Comes with a PDA loaded with aiming software and it will tell you exactly what gridpoint to use. It is a very accurate system, allowing you to make precise hits at extreme ranges.

I've seen those in magazines and catalogues, str8, but have never used one.

I've read some information regarding certain military sniper scopes that have similar recticles, with gradations for both elevation and windage.

Since I use my .25-06 for hunting, as well as "games" at the shooting range, that type of scope may actually be more practical for me. As you know, sometimes time is of the essence when trying to put the crosshairs on a skittish muy grande. It might be better not to have to take my eye off the recticle to adjust the target knobs.

Hap,
I have a Horus Vision mounted on my custom 300 RUM, and it is perfect for that rifle. My 25-06 doesn't need anything like that. A couple of other nice scopes are from Springfield Armory and ATN. They have bullet drop compensators, but not for the 25-06. ATN is calibrated for .223, .308, .300 winmag and maybe a couple of others and the Springfield is more limited on calibers. They are both quite accurate though.

Thanks for the info.