Personally, I do not like high fence hunting. I think white-tail deer and other native species are state resources and as such should not be effectively possessed by individual land owners. If white-tail deer could be proven to be "owned" through proof of lineage or legal sale purchases then that would be a different scenario. However, I think owners would be hard pressed to show proof that all deer on their land holdings were not present prior to their "high fencing" the land.

In either case, I can not consciously shoot high-fence as a personal choice.

I'll admit that my research into this issue is rather limited, but would be interested in other viewpoints hence my starting the thread.

[This message has been edited by pedro_martinez (edited 8/10/2005 12:37a).]

High Fence, merely encourages deer to stay. If a deer wants out, they will get out. I have seen many deer jump over a high fence at will. No game-managing landowner in Texas will ever claim to own a Whit-Tail Deer, because they are property of the State of Texas.

Why not just provide a more than suitable natural environment for the deer to feel comfortable on rather than high fence the land to "encourage" them to stay? If an ample amount of cover, water, food and space were to be provided would the deer not be inclined to hang around? They've hung around Texas long before any of us ever stepped foot here.

I'd think that most cattle ranches, farms, etc.. are not high fencing to keep their domesticated animals in, but rather to solely keep the deer in (although an argument might be made to keep poachers out.) Either way, aside from the deer perspective, I think it is rather unsightly to be driving down miles of highway that resembles one big prison yard.

I'm not a biology expert and I know deer are some amazing animals, but I'd think that on most of the ranches I've seen high fence installed on, the deer would need to be wearing a cape with a big "D" on it to make it over the top of those fences. Is there a particular reason behind the fences being a prescribed height? I haven't really seen any high fences that look to be 5,6, or 7 ft. in height. I would think that the fences are a certain height for a reason.

Could it be the $$$ for "Guaranteed Trophy Bucks" offered on many high fence properties?

[This message has been edited by pedro_martinez (edited 8/10/2005 1:35a).]

While I would never hunt such an area, I'm cool with it. These places are spending $$$$$$ to make the habitat ideal for whitetail growth, I have no problem with them hedging their bets on keeping those same animals in the area with high fences.

Agree w/0175. I really dont have a problem w/these fences either. I hunt outside Eldorado and see alot of these fences. These ranches put out alot of money in these operations. A friend of mine put one of these high fences around 3000 acres in San Saba and it cost him right at 100K. He like alot of these ranches import deer from outside the state also. At least he did this 5 or so years ago. Not sure if you can still import now or not. The way I see it is that its their property to do w/as they please. They usually have some sort of management program in place regarding their herds, so the animals are doing better than they probably would on their own.

The main reason for these fences is the $$$ that can be made through trophy hunts. As I said earlier, I would not hunt these because it would not be a true challenge. Most of these high dollar hunts, you are guaranteed a trophy. If i killed a deer in this enviroment i would not feel like it was earned.

Both sides of this have a good arguement. I lean towards the high fences are ok.

Good thing.

The ranch manager at the Briscoe_Catarina once said " I don't fence deer in, I fence bad neighbors out".

and if any of you do not think hunting behind a high fence is just as tough as free ranging whitetails you are sadly mistaken...provided it isn't something absurd like 100 acres behind high fence.

From an outdoorsman's perspective, I would not feel right shooting a caged deer. Game fences take the "hunt" out of hunting.

The same could be said for feeders, but I think that may be a bit of a stretch.

From an animal rights standpoint (playing devil's advocate); the fenced in deer are of a better pedigree, managed well, fed well, and occasionally vaccinated to control disease. They are sheltered from predators (other than humans) and live a pretty good life until they get a hot lead injection.

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If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you can read this in English, thank a Soldier.

The reason we high fenced a mile of our land was to keep out bad neighbors. When the ranch to our north went for sale and split into 5 "ranchettes", we got 5 new neighbors all wanting to hunt. We have spent 15 years managing our herd for optimal size and nutrition. We kill one mature buck per every 200 acres. There is no way to convince a guy with 8 cousins, 10 employees, and lots of friends to shoot only 1 mature buck every 3 years on his 80 acres in the Hill Country.

I'm not talking about a caged deer.....I'm talking about a wild animal living on several thousand acres. For instance, the place I hunt is 6,800 acres high fenced. Not a 25 acre high fence petting zoo.

Deer can definitely get over a game-proof fence, if they want to. I saw a doe go up and over one, and she was maybe 5 feet away from the fence when she did it. She literally climbed the fence.

You know what? The stuff on the range is the fun stuff. For example, let us "Like, you know, load safely, holster safely without shooting anyone, draw safely, and shoot well, and like, hit the target." Gunsite Training Center has a great advertisement that reads "Hard Fun." I couldn't agree more. You should go to school to learn, then to the range to practice competency. You want entertainment? Buy a kazoo. - Clint Smith

High fence does not take the sport out of the hunt unless it's a very small plot of land. Hunting a mature buck on a 5000 acre high fenced ranch is just as hard as a 5000 acre low renced ranch.

And you can feel doubly proud of luring your caged trophy to an automated feed bucket so you know what time to arrive and shoot him.

And you can feel doubly proud of luring your caged jja79 to an automated feed bucket so you know what time to arrive and poop on him.

High fences suck and are used by most landowners to manufacture "trophy deer" they can sell for thousands. All the talk about bad neighbors is just that-talk.

no it's not just talk. If by manufacturing you mean providing a ideal habitat and maintaining the ideal buck to doe ratio as well as the ideal number of deer per acre then I guess you're right. That's called be a good game manager.

If you want to have really big deer in many parts of the state (East Texas for instance), high fence your property. Otherwise you can watch your neighbors (and poachers) kill the 2 - 3 year old bucks every year.

If you've never hunted on a high fenced property then how do you know what it's like to hunt there?

[This message has been edited by MAROON (edited 8/10/2005 11:36a).]

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no it's not just talk. If by manufacturing you mean providing a ideal habitat and maintaining the ideal buck to doe ratio as well as the ideal number of deer per acre then I guess you're right. That's called be a good game manager.

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Exactly. And I’d go further and state that managing deer numbers is called being a good LAND manager. I work as biolgoist and have very mixed views of high fences. High fences enable capable land managers to manage deer densities at appropriate levels. Because of deer emigration, most landowners with less than 500+ acres can’t dream off successfully managing populations without cooperative agreements with neighbors. Having a high fence involves tremendous commitment because those deer cannot readily leave if populations explode (not saying deer won’t go over a fence as I’ve seen several do it, one of which was not stressed). That said, in my experiences, most high fenced properties are over-stocked, just like low-fenced properties. In short, I support high fences for the small minority of landowners who are committed to sustainable land management (and this isn’t the 2 acres / deer ranches that feed a zillion pounds of protein a week to "manufacture" large deer).

As far as ethics go (and I’m much more concerned over the ecological impacts), the deer growing up behind a fence are much more familiar with their habitat and hunting patterns than deer behind low fences. Whether or not mature bucks are more difficult to hunt depends on how pressured the deer are among other factors. I hunted a high fenced property of less than 300 acres for several years. On this property, one buck that died of natural causes at the age of 5.5 years was observed exactly ONE time during the last 2.5 years or so of his life and it was during a spotlight survey (not possible to say if he was observed as an immature deer).

BTW: I don’t think that hunting deer over corn feeders with high powered rifles is very sporty.

Kenner, if you arent a bad neighbor, then please come out to the Hill Country, buy one of the 80 acre ranchettes, agree to follow our management strategy, harvest only appropriate deer, and we will gladly take down the fence. We dont high fence the rest of the ranch because we believe in fair chase, just dont want to spend thousands of dollars on feed for our neighbors to shoot young deer.

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High fences suck and are used by most landowners to manufacture "trophy deer" they can sell for thousands. All the talk about bad neighbors is just that-talk.

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Agree with the above poster.

Kenner

While I can see both sides of the argument, your point of view is generally expressed by those of the animal rights/anti-hunting crowd, and/or (sorry if I sound arrgant) those who do not have the means to do things such as high fence or hunt trophy class animals.

We high fenced for very specific reasons. First and foremost, we put an enormous amount of time and MONEY into our management program. Our ranch is 2500+ acres plus. 14 different ranches and one state park touch us. Bad neighbors and their lease guys are in fact quite a problem. We have three different ranches that border us that day lease. They put their feeders and blinds right on the fence and for $100 you can blast at whatever comes along. The people that hunt the park trespass regularly and also shoot anything that wanders into their cross hairs. Normal lease guys that border on us tend to bend rules and kill young bucks every season.

As long as the state allows high fence, we'll protect our investment. Its one of the beautiful things about property rights.

As for the wildlife themselves, you can debate fair chase and all of that, none of my concern. However, we are true stewards of our wildlife. We have well managed whitetail herd that gets healthier every year (and yes, bigger and badder). We do not genetic engineer or use breeder bucks. We banned all quail hunting on the ranch for fear that are numbers are not quite sustainable to hunt. Turkey harvesting limited as well. We do not allow hunting of predatory animals (bobcats, fox, rattlesnake, etc) and only limited hunting coyotes when their numbers appear to be of concern. Overall, everything in balance as it should be.

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buy one of the 80 acre ranchettes, agree to follow our management strategy, harvest only appropriate deer, and we will gladly take down the fence.

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This is another good point. Most of the ranches around us are owned by old guys who could care less about game management. I have saying in describing many Hill Country ranchers. If you can't eat it, f'k it, or sell it aint good for nothing. That's how many of them view wildlife considering few actually harvest for family sustenance.

Anyway, as pointed out, getting your neighbors to employ sounds managment techniques is often fruitless. Most want a quick dollar from leasing and that's about it.

Why wouldn't the state just mandate a rule set that would allow proper harvesting of deer that meet a certain criteria?

I agree that deer should never be harvested "before their time", i.e. until they've maxed out.

The only exceptions to that would be obviously deformed bucks or does for balance / meat.

pedro - some counties have done that, putting antler restrictions on bucks to be harvested.

One of the biggest fears of TP&W, and rightfully so, is that the Texas whitetail population is already much larger and damaging than it should be and any additional restrictions will only decrease the number of harvested deer. It's a catch 22 to be sure. While the state advocates management practices they also need more hunters taking more deer.

On the other side of the coin .......

High fences can be used to keep deer OUT. The Lower Hill country has the highest deer densities in the U.S. A properly managed high fenced place can lower the numbers to a point where the habitat can support the numbers. There is nothing worse than seeing some of the country around Rock Springs/Kerrville/San Saba where the deer numbers are so high that the decent browse species have been elimintated and the deer are living on a diet of live oak. I work with one producer who was considering importing some high dollar bucks after high fencing. The biologist and I convinced him to first shoot the numbers down, then see what happens in 4 or 5 years. The result was some awe inspiring bucks. They just needed groceries.

As more city dwellers buy their 10 aceres in the country, the concept of keeping neighbors is a very real one. I deal with ranches every day where they have done a good job of habitat management only to have the bunch of 10 acre ranchettes slaughter deer. One rancher I work with resisted the urge to high fence until one of the "neighbors" with 10 acres bragged about killing 20 deer one season (kids, brothers, cousins, etc .... were all invited to hunt). This was just one parcel in the dozen or so that bordered him. Another client counted over a dozen blinds just across his fence - each with a feeder designed to lure deer across the fence from his place.

Although I dont like them, now days they are almost a "must have" if you want to consistantly kill a trophy buck in texas. Unless you have over ten thousand acres that is. The fact of the matter is, there are way to many hunters that will shoot young deer before they mature. I have seen several bucks that travel over 6 miles in one direction during the rut. With out a high fence there is no way to stop them from doing this.

I personally would never hunt in a high fenced area that I felt the deer didn't have "free range" That to me is at least 5000 acres of heavy cover.

Some of you might be suprised how deer can hide thought. I have a friend that has 320 acres of heavy mesquite and brush high fenced. He doesnt hunt it, he just bought a young buck with good genetics to grow it. Anyway we watched it turn into a 180 class buck over three years and then it disappeared for two years with people on there almost everyday. We assumed it died but we saw it again while spotlighting one night. The deer had become 100% nocturnal.
That is until some one paid $30,000 to shoot it, sad!

These deer "farms" where the land is actively managed and manipulated to grow monster bucks are giving people a skewed view of "trophy" deer.

The once in a a lifetime bucks that the rest of the country hope for a peek of are not "shooters" on most of these trophy ranches.

I have seen one "trophy" buck in the wild in my lifetime. He was a 131-1/8" 10 point, and he's on the wall of my den. He was taken by patterning deer. I scouted, put myself on a well used deer trail from some super thick stuff to a pond. He followed 30 min behind two does.

My hunt cost $8 for the buck tag. There were no fences, no baits, no feeders.

... and no asterisk next to him in my mind.

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I'm all for that. Sounds like a pretty sweet buck.

By the way, I have nothing against folks that hunt fenced areas, or over feeders... it's just not for me.

If it weren't for large, high fenced places, Doe Busters(TM) would be out of business. Folks just don't seem to understand that they now have a "captive" audience, and the deer just keep reproducing. The owners and lease hunters just don't have the time/patience/knowledge/tags to cap all the "extra" management deer.

High fences are for the money. I think there should be a law against ranches smaller than 5,000 acres being high fenced.

I hunt in the Hill country and it is terrible up there. Any hillbilly with 100 acres wants to fence his land in. Land owner next to us fenced in his 200 acres three years ago and said he had to clear out 60 does this year. He was not getting anyone pay to come shoot them, so guess what happened. He cleared them out himself. Hillbilly.

I also believe any ranch with a high fence should be required to employ a certified game biologist.

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man, I don't even know where to begin with this one.

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High fences are for the money. I think there should be a law against ranches smaller than 5,000 acres being high fenced.

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1) We're high fenced and we don't lease nor offer trophy hunts. In fact, besides friends and family the rest of our hunters are there for charitable causes (auctioned hunts for scholarships, disabled kids, etc).
2) We have 2500+ under high fence. 5000 is a stretch. I would say anything less than 1000 is too small.

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I hunt in the Hill country and it is terrible up there. Any hillbilly with 100 acres wants to fence his land in.

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Sorry, but I haven't seen many 100 acre raches high fenced unless they are trying to keep deer out (growing wine grapes or other sensitive crops).

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Land owner next to us fenced in his 200 acres three years ago and said he had to clear out 60 does this year. He was not getting anyone pay to come shoot them, so guess what happened. He cleared them out himself. Hillbilly.

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This seems rather hard to believe. We are on a level 3 management permit and received 65 tags last year for 2500+ acres. 60 doe on 200 acres is almost too far fetched to believe.

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I also believe any ranch with a high fence should be required to employ a certified game biologist.

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Why? As far as management goes as I know as much or more than most biologists (nothing like hands on experience). Further, I don't know of any high fenced ranches that are not on management plans with TP&W and to be on the plan you work with a biologist from TP&W.




[This message has been edited by Urban Ag (edited 8/12/2005 1:41p).]